So while it is just silly to question the faith of others, it can actually be quite dangerous to question the belief systems of some people. It is not just the loud obscenities that you get in your ear, or the invitation to tea that you did not get while everyone else you know seem to be attending; questioning some people’s belief systems can actually be life threatening.
By batsman
Actually there is not very much to discuss about faith. It is something that is held by the individual and not something that can be reasonably assured or confirmed in others. One can never be totally sure of someone else’s faith although some people (e.g. God’s Prophet) find it easy to share theirs. Besides, it is something that is not readily amenable to intellectual examination or explained by intellectual discourse.
Beliefs however are somewhat different. Over generations, belief systems are built up and taught to followers. Some belief systems do not need to be tested by scientific methods to be valid and intimately held by its followers. Some which are based on observance of physical laws need to be. However even in these “scientific” belief systems, not everything can be proven by scientific methods so even in these, cliques are formed.
All of these, even the scientific ones, are capable of being formed into religions, e.g. scientology which is more honest about what it is and “Big Bang” theorists who are in denial about what they really are.
Although the dictionary says that there must be a “god” for a belief system to be theoretically classified as a religion, in messy real life a “god” can be really anything that is not questionable e.g. to the evolutionists, evolution is not questionable, to the “Big Bang” theorists the Big Bang is not questionable, to the Bhuddists the cycle of life cannot be questioned, to the Zionists the right of Jews to return to Palestine cannot be questioned and to the Bushites the right to exterminate Muslims cannot be questioned.
This “not questionable” thing can even be a real living person, so in real life, there are actually many “living gods”. I believe many Malaysians aspire to be one of these. In fact even the dictionary itself can be a “god” as some people quote it as “proof” as if it is the gospel truth. To these people, there are actually many gods such as their text books, their newspapers, their TV, their bosses and even their fatty wives, yet they are the ones who shout the loudest obscenities against the beliefs of others.
So while it is just silly to question the faith of others, it can actually be quite dangerous to question the belief systems of some people. It is not just the loud obscenities that you get in your ear, or the invitation to tea that you did not get while everyone else you know seem to be attending; questioning some people’s belief systems can actually be life threatening.
Let us try and examine why. In spite of common roots and much commonality, the classical religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have important differences.
In Judaism racial purity gets more emphasis because of the “Chosen People” concept, so we find that everybody else seems to be treated as not really important – even the European Jews and Oriental Jews cannot mix in spite of holding on to common belief systems. So it is not just the Nazis who were obsessed with racial purity although in the Nazi case obsession is a child’s word.
In Christianity, the belief system itself gets more emphasis, so theology is important and anyone who threatens the unity or wholeness of theology is apt to receive harsh treatment. So even when Christianity split up partly because the theology was wrenched apart to serve different causes, the tradition of suppressing questions was kept in its various forms in all the Christian sects.
This tradition is so deeply ingrained in the western world that the part of scientific tradition which developed in the western world actually imbibed some of it in spite of scientific claims to champion questions so that there are actually many professors including some commenters in blogs who dislike too many questions from their students. Unfortunately we have learnt some of these ways too because we like to suck up to science, status and power.
In Islam, the emphasis is on the way of life of Muslims. So while capitalism is originally based on territory and it is nationalism that binds the community together, Islam’s emphasis on the Muslim way of life binds the Muslim community of many races and many nationalities together. So anything which threatens this way of life is not well received, just as anything which threatens sovereign borders of the capitalist nation state is not well received.
Having said all of the above, in real life, things get messy and there are many cross influences as communities copy from each other to protect or advance themselves. For example, Zionism got influenced by Nazi treatment of Jews and treated their own victims as sub-human creatures thus becoming even more influential and more powerful than Judaism itself and Muslims who are also capitalists can behave in surprising ways even to Muslims themselves.
Real life is sometimes stranger than fiction and some tenuous and hard to believe links may even exist. For example, it is possible that British officers who served in both Palestine and Malaya may have brought their experiences of Zionist methods to Malaya and taught them to their protégés such that these protégés became influenced by Zionist values and behaviour. Any gaps seem to be closed many years later when consultants with Zionist links were hired to help them extend their influence. This sounds speculative, but it seems to be the only logical explanation why some Malaysians behave so much like the Zionists.
In trying to explain the behaviour of communities holding various belief systems, it is also necessary to understand humans as a component of these communities.
Humans make decisions based on emotions in spite of their much hyped ability to think and reason. This is because we still instinctively behave more like animals and things such as philosophy, science, mathematics and all those that involve the higher intellect of humans are only very recent developments of human civilization.
In animals, we find that aggressive behaviour is the result of only 2 things – the reaction against threats (against self, mates, young or even territory) and the need for food (including sexual appetite). In humans unfortunately, owing to our ability to think, strategize and plan (which could also be a curse) these 2 characteristics of aggression have been skillfully manipulated into weapons for power struggles and for corruption.
For example in Malaysia the 30% Bumiputra equity thingy has been much hyped as needed to protect against the suffering and abuse of Bumiputras. This triggers the aggressive reaction against threats and danger among the Bumiputras. At the same time, the prospects of acquiring profitable contracts reserved for suffering and abused Bumiputras trigger the aggressive reaction to hunger and greed. So both aggressive reactions are triggered at the same time. This is a potent and dangerous mix.
But this is not the end of the story. After 50 long years the nons started to question why the Bumiputras still feel suffering and abuse especially when they see the facts that the oil and gas, banking and transport sectors are already monopolized by Bumiputra interests and the civil service is almost wholly Bumiputra with most of the scholarships, licenses, approvals, tenders and contracts have been going to Bumiputras for the last 50 years. From the evidence of their eyes, they see that Bumiputras have not only achieved the 30% equity needed for social balance, they have exceeded it and not about to give up acquiring even more – even after acquiring monopoly in many areas.
Unfortunately for Malaysia, it is also a fact that most of the Bumiputras are still suffering and abused as claimed by the government even after 50 long years. So how are these contradictions to be sorted out? Again the evidence of the eyes comes into play – open and arrogant rampant corruption and abuse of power – a few Bumiputras are rolling in unimaginable luxury while the rest are still suffering and abused. A new social imbalance of corruption and sin is developing.
The country is headed down the path of ruin. So what do humans who are skilled at strategizing and planning do? They learn from the Zionists and come up with the concept of Ketuanan Melayu. They accused anyone who questioned including the suffering and abused Bumiputras of being traitors, lack patriotism and morality and charge them with sodomy and sedition, all the while bonking around happily amongst themselves.
Now the nons cannot even question and complain anymore. In their frustration, they start blaming Islam and Malays, but this only worsens the situation and the clever humans become even more powerful.
This is how religions and belief systems which are supposed to protect the weak and innocent get dragged into power struggles of the rich and powerful. This is how religions and belief systems which champion justice are manipulated and turned into instruments of injustice. This is how religion gets blamed for all the bad things in life by those that manipulate and abuse. This is how the victims are victimized.
(As a matter of small distraction in methods of victimization, the victim needs to be demonized first before the real hurting can begin. So if 5 times more Americans believe that Obama is a Muslim, the danger to Obama’s life just increased 5 fold overnight and you can thank the Zionists for that)
So please don’t question faith, mix up faith and beliefs, dump shit on those who believe in the Adam and Eve story as being superstitious, etc. It is really academic, silly and non-productive given the seriousness of the situation above.
written by batsman, August 23, 2010 21:06:29
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written by truthbespoken, August 23, 2010 17:50:50
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written by batsman, August 23, 2010 17:41:14
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written by batsman, August 23, 2010 17:37:34
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written by batsman, August 23, 2010 17:35:15
There is a serious consequence if faith and beliefs are separate and different in their understanding, but this consequence is another topic altogether. As for now I leave it at this. If you wish to remain at your simple level, fine, if you wish to think more about it - also fine.
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written by a guest, August 23, 2010 17:19:53
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written by alfchuah, August 23, 2010 14:28:09
A society that doesn't question anything is a pond of dead water. Whether it's religion, whether it's scientific research, whether it is evolution (btw, which has tangible proof hence requires no believe/faith that we act animalistically because we have evolved from animals), they have undergone changes over time. People change their minds, people ask questions, people raise doubts, people simply change themselves or others to suit themselves.
How can you say questioning someone's faith is silly and questioning a faith system is dangerous even. If Einstein didn't question others' belief or faith in the almighty, would he have discovered the things he did? If he didn't even challenge his own belief/faith about whether things could be done a different way, would you even have the light over your head to read my comment?
What you are saying is no more than being a religious fanatic. One that rings true with what Islam is - submission. You say Islam brings people of different races together, true, only if they don't question your version of Islam. If they were to be more liberal (like RPK), god forbids, they are traitors to you. Religion, esp Islam, as you put it, as a way of life. A way of life. There are many many ways of life for people to live. And before they make a choice, it is their instinct to question if the other way of life is suitable for them.
It is silly of you to even bring up in the inequality and chaos in Malaysia to support your thought - UMNO's leaders, Perkasa, MPM and whatnot, have all abused power and have all been involved in corruption - which are clearly forbidden in the religion - I do not know any clearer evidence to rebut your statement: So while it is just silly to question the faith of others.
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written by antares, August 23, 2010 12:53:56
You are teasing my thoughts. “Can anyone then claim He still does not exist?” Now that is very interesting indeed! Now, that’s the whole point where, as you put it “Those who still do suffer their own "blind faith" syndrome and have really thick impenetrable skulls?"
Many believer of faiths; Islam, Christians, Judaism, Hinduism or what not; would rather believe that the common denominator that of the two realms divinity i.e. the goodness that is God and the badness of Satan. To put it plainly if one religious believe or perception that God is any lesser than Satan; surely something must have screwed up. In Sufism and for those who seeks the truth, even the attribution of “Absoluteness” to God is inappropriate to justify quantifying the existence of the One and the Only God. Absoluteness is just a descriptive or an expressionism of divinity, otherwise how else so to speak.
On deep thoughts, It is apparent that goodness and badness of God attributions is all goes in a circle, nothing more and nothing less. Sometimes we hear pretentious Muslim’s self proclaim “All good things come from Allah and all the bad things from me”. Now if one believes that is justified, then it is true as you put it - those who still do suffer their own "blind faith" syndrome and have really thick impenetrable skulls. In other word one must literally believes that God must be a bankrupt or recyclable God! The realization of the true meaning of attribution of goodness and badness of God’s attribution is within us. One’s faith can be crazy thoughts of many thoughts! But then that’s what power up our inner world – deep within us. In order to see that one must realize and declare that one is a true bankrupt to see the true attributions of the One and Only God .
Just an interesting thought, Albert Einstein was enjoying tea with his fellow professors. He was smiling while lighting his pipe, a fellow professor asked, “Why are you smiling? Einstein replies “I wonder if God has any choice when he created the universe?
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written by Better My, August 23, 2010 12:24:29
Let me just try to take another miserable step in the Long March and explain the difference between faith and beliefs to those who still cannot get it. Faith is not dependent on time, logic, ethics or reason. Beliefs are however built over time into a belief system. They therefore have structure and a logic of their own. They even have ethics and reason built into them. So how can the 2 be one and the same thing? You cannot argue with faith but you can argue with belief systems. It is only when someone threatens you with ISA and asks you to shut up that you cannot argue with belief systems. So when you develop the capability to question your own belief systems (if ever this is possible with you as a very unique individual), can you not see that with an impenetrable skull, your own belief systems can be exactly equivalent to "blind faith" that you rail against?
Bats Guy, you are trying to split hairs to the level than less than 1 percent of super intellect, like yourself , can understand what you are saying.. like re: Faith is not dependent on time, logic, ethics or reason. Beliefs are however built over time into a belief system. belief systems can be exactly equivalent to "blind faith" that you rail against? I say, you have some residual effect from your last nite pot smoking when you wrote these lines.
Don't make it too complicated
Religious faith and beliefs in religion or beliefs in faith are quite similar, if not the same.
In any case, we are talking about faith/gold /religion inthe current context.
The crux of the issue is this. If faith/beliefs or religion is used politically, like the accusation on LGE Penang case, then it is very bad for the antion, as it can continue on and on, and we achieve no productivity from it. Faith or religious beliefs and politics must not mix.
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written by truthbespoken, August 23, 2010 10:28:07
If faith is unquestionable as some insist, why openly question the functions of the God-given faculties to see, think, hear and feel? Where is the so-called FAITH IN GOD then especially over his creations on man? On one end, the same people say Faith in God cannot be questioned and in the same breath the next instant, they doggedly promote man-induced functions over God's creations. What a whole lot contradiction! THINK and do not stop thinking and questioning, man! Don't ever let God down for creating the thinking and questioning abilities in you. Man is all hogwash about God and religion if you let them get seriously into you and your way. Haha.
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written by Logger123, August 23, 2010 10:05:06
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
One cannot go on to a PhD, without first going through the whole process of learning the alphabet (whichever language) and the numbers. Plus leaning the basics of knowledge in humanities, sciences and literature and the skils in articulation, thinking and debating.
With mostly materialistic perspectives in life, most folks find it difficult to go over to the other side to really see if the 6 they see may appear to be a 9 to the others on the other side.
As long as they have a sincere inquiring attitude, they can and need to be led step by step to attain the knowledge they seek.
Keep it up!
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written by batsman, August 23, 2010 08:36:20
Faith is not dependent on time, logic, ethics or reason. Beliefs are however built over time into a belief system. They therefore have structure and a logic of their own. They even have ethics and reason built into them. So how can the 2 be one and the same thing? You cannot argue with faith but you can argue with belief systems. It is only when someone threatens you with ISA and asks you to shut up that you cannot argue with belief systems.
So when you develop the capability to question your own belief systems (if ever this is possible with you as a very unique individual), can you not see that with an impenetrable skull, your own belief systems can be exactly equivalent to "blind faith" that you rail against?
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written by batsman, August 23, 2010 08:27:02
Dear educationist - perhaps as an educationist, you would care to refute my argument rather than just sweeping it away with another sweeping statement. Other than that - TQ for your fair comments. heeheehee
Dear Better My - I believe the 2nd comment below applies to you as well. I case you still cannot get it let me just emphasis and repeat it - Sigh! It would seem some people’s thick skulls are impenetrable. These are the same people who rail against “blind faith”, so it would seem that these people actually suffer their own “blind faith” syndrome and are no different from those they rail against. heeheehee
Dear antares - TQ for being a thoughtful thinker. Let me just tease you with another thought. Some people say God does not exist and has no material form. Yet His actions are seen everyday through the actions and hearts of man. His presence is felt through man. Can anyone then claim He still does not exist? Those who still do suffer their own "blind faith" syndrome and have really thick impenetrable skulls, don't you think?
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written by Better My, August 23, 2010 07:02:14
Religion should serve as a a good ethics guide to better compassionate living (such as helping the poor, abused women, do good things), must never used to gain polticially (such as FOC devide and rule, West Vs malay, endless list of religious demands with political agenda (such as the recent stopping of other religion gathering in the months of Ramadan in Shah Alam). There is NO end to political use of religion if it is to continue.
I can list 101 things that bad out of ideas politician, like the BeEnd, can use religion to gain infuence poltically. Is this inteference going to help the economy and riches of the malay masses and others. NO, not at all. It is just going to continue to prolong discussion for next decades over nothing productive - a total waste of time. We should be devoting our total energy and time on the REAL issues that can bring wealth and higher standard of livings to the malay and all others, such as skill development, health, tourism, how to compete better, how to work smarter, etc etc.
Unite EW. Good to see Sabah PKR is coming to a head. Get it over with. No one or group inSabah PKR is indispensable. The preogative is with KL PKR. If you are marginalised in selection, there are more opportuntiies in future. If you disagree with the KL PKR perogative, then F off.
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written by antares, August 23, 2010 06:35:32
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written by educationist, August 23, 2010 04:06:56
But, by and large a fair analysis of the current scenario!!
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written by truthbespoken, August 22, 2010 22:56:13
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written by myhhlim, August 22, 2010 21:17:46
Then six months later, I attended another conference and the same speaker gave a talk. This time some body ask him the same question and he was so happy and said " What a good question and gave an explanation based on what I said and based on his future research into the issue.
Since that day, why some say " Dont question us.!, it means that I dont have the answer. If I have the answers then the reply would be " very, very good question."
That applies to all religions and beliefs.
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It just occurred to me that we are all actually going for the incomprehensible when we discuss on the subjects of God, faith, fate, destiny, birth of the world, so on and so forth. Talk on either of these topics, the layman would normally accept and not bother to question the essence of these ‘words’. Most people have become accustomed from young, some indoctrinated, it doesn't matter, but all of them would almost without exception, accept without questions the death of someone even if that someone had died in an accident or under abnormal circumstances, murders aside. Why so? To me, it has always been the human natural instincts playing its part on most occasions. They know that no answer will be forthcoming even if they ask. So, they say, it's destiny, his fate to die young. No more questions. No other answer would seem palatable even if the words destiny and fate seem 'empty' in nature. Hence, sometimes it is smart of humans not to overstretch the rubber-band when it appears fully stretched. Lest it tears apart and becomes wasted. Likewise, this applies to the functions of the human brain on subjects which are still considered beyond human comprehension. We can go bonkers too if we are not careful and go over the unknown limit. Not that we don't try but should be done one step at a time. Relax and then pursue again and relax again, pursue again.
Frankly, I am of the opinion that NO ONE, NO HUMAN should impose on another, the dogmas “found in all holy scriptures of yesteryears” which I suspect, are all written by outstanding men, not God. It's the work of clevermen. At best, the scriptures, which emanate goodness, should be professed as guidelines to do good onto others. Let God be the only One to decide on the outcome of this life on earth for only God can do this job, not man ... Eh, where am I now? Sorry batsman for digressing but I am just writing what comes to my mind.
Anyway, about antares and Einstein. Why bother whether the universe is created or farted by God through the Big Bang? Even when one of them is still living and the other is dead, with due respect to both intellectuals, the fact remains that the answers are still not known, cannot be ascertained and the 'rubber-band' brain is still also being stretched by some other clever people. The time to know hasn't arrived yet. Maybe, maybe someday THE ANSWER will come.
My parting shot, batsman, do you believe in the 'legend' that Mary had given a 'virgin birth' in the form of Jesus Christ? Fact or fiction? Why do so many people insist it is the truth? Can virgin birth in humans be proven if it is a fact? So, there goes, we are in circles again. It is expected that those words, God, faith, fate, destiny, all coined by man, are used by man to neutralize unexplainable situations without questions. Haha, peace brother, and peace to the world!