Freedom to oppose as long as you agree with me

What some people in PAS can’t seem to understand is that PAS is a political party. And as a political party it has every right to propagate and promote its political ideology. And in the case of PAS it is Islamic politics. But PAS can’t deny Malaysians their rights as well. And this right is to reject the PAS brand of politics in favour of some other political ideology.

NO HOLDS BARRED

Raja Petra Kamarudin

I was wondering when Rahman Celcom a.k.a. Tulang Besi would crawl out of his hole in the ground. In case some of you are not aware, Rahman was the person who revealed that Ustaz Hadi Awang, Mustaffa Ali, Hassan Ali and a few other top PAS leaders were engaged in secret talks with Umno soon after the March 2008 general election.

People like Rahman and those of his ilk have only one view. And that is if you agree with everything they say, then you are learned (ulamak). If, however, you disagree with what they say, then you are ignorant (jahil).

Your status -- whether you are a learned or an ignorant person -- depends on whether you agree or disagree with what these people think and say. In my case, since I disagree with them, then I am an ignorant person.

It does not matter where I studied. It does not matter how long I studied. It does not matter from whom I studied. It does not matter how many books I may have read and who wrote those books. I am learned only if I agree with their opinion and am ignorant if I do not.

These people are of the view they have the right to propagate, propose, promote, etc., their brand of politics. In this case it happens to be Islamic politics. You and I, however, do not have the right to reject their brand of politics. You must agree with them and not reject them or dispute what they say.

Oh, it’s not that they do not believe in freedom of speech, expression, opinion, association, or whatever. They do. But this freedom is only allowed as long as you too share their views as to what is right and wrong and what is permitted and not permitted.

For example, if they oppose Ketuanan Melayu, and you too oppose Ketuanan Melayu, then they allow you the freedom to oppose Ketuanan Melayu. Your freedom extends to only those areas of ‘common interest’. But once you part company on certain issues then you forfeit your right to this freedom.

Another thing these people believe in is that they have a right to impose their opinion on you. They have a certain opinion and you must accept this opinion. You may not disagree with what they think. Malaysia may be a democracy. But democracy is only allowed as long as you do not disagree with their opinion.

Think what you want. Say what you want. Just make sure you think and say what they too think and say and not opposite to that.

This is the mentality of Rahman Celcom and those of his ilk. And the fact that they tolerate other religions -- although tolerate is something you do when it is a nuisance -- proves that they are very reasonable people.

**********************************************

J. Hussain wrote:

“In Islamic law, crimes are classified in three ways: hudud, qisas (and) Ta’azir...Hudud crimes are those specifically mentioned in the Koran as transgressing the limits which God himself has placed on people's behavior. The hudud crimes are: theft, highway robbery, drinking alcohol, unlawful sexual intercourse and false accusation of unchastity. Some jurists also include murder and apostasy (al-riddah) among the categories of hudud crimes.”

Schacht wrote that hudud is reserved for crimes against Allah for which there can be no mercy or judicial discretion.

Further, Al-Awwa adds “unlawful rebellion” to the list of hudud crimes.

Schacht sets out the specifics of huhud:

“The death penalty either by stoning (the more severe punishment for unlawful intercourse) or by crucifixion or with the sword (for highway robbery with homicide); cutting off hand and/or foot (for highway robbery without homicide and for theft....”

Schacht also confirms the rigidity of Islamic law; that hudud is meted out as:

“... a right or claim of Allah, therefore no pardon or amicable settlement is possible.”

However, in some cases, Muslim law allows a criminal defendant to pay off the victim (diyya) and thus, to escape punishment; an option obviously only available to the wealthy.

REFERENCES:

* Al-Awwa, Muhammad Salim, “The Basis of Islamic Penal Legislation”, published in The Islamic Criminal Justice System (Rome: Oceana Publications Inc., 1982), page 127

* Duhaime, Lloyd, Legal Definition of Ta’azir

* Hussain, J., Islamic Law and Society (Sydney: Federation Press, 1999), page 134

* Schacht, J., An Introduction to Islamic Law (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1964), page 175

*****************************************

Raja Petra went to town attacking the PAS Youth Chief for suggesting Hudud as an alternative. My initial response is : AT LEAST SOMEONE IS THINKING OF A SOLUTION TO THE WORSENING CRIME PROBLEM in Malaysia.

Instead of providing a sound alternative, RPK chose to redicule the PAS Youth Chief.

He went to cite the failure of Christian laws in Europe from the history of Christianity. The trouble with this argument is that the same cannot be said about Islamic laws or Hudud. The Islamic Penal Code has been in practiced for 1400 years and NO ONE complained about it's implementation.

The removal of Islamic Penal Code from the lives of Muslims are mostly the handiwork of Colonials like British, Russians, France, Belgium, Dutch etc when Muslim Lands were invaded by them.

In fact, in India, women were prevented from getting inheritence from their fathers because the Common Law of Britain forbids any inheritance to women, at that time, when British first invaded India. For a few hundred years before that women were getting inheritance without any hinderance because they were subjected to Shariah Laws.

So, there lies Raja Petra's main weakness in his argument: he cites examples from the history of CHRISTIANITY which DIFFERS greatly from the history of Islam and Islamic Penal Code.

As far as history has shown, Islamic Penal Code is practiced by Muslims for the last 1400 years and no one complained about it despite the coming and going of Muslim rulers throughout the ages.

So, i beg Raja Petra to come up with a better argument to negate the effectiveness of Islamic Penal Code.

Oh, and Raja Petra also made this argument:

If this is true then why quote the example of the murder of Datuk Sosilawati Lawiya? This woman was allegedly killed by Indian Hindus, not by Malay Muslims. And since Hudud applies only to Muslims then it does not matter whether Malaysia does or does not implement these Islamic laws. It would not have deterred these Indian Hindus from killing Datuk Sosilawati Lawiya because they would have been exempted from these laws anyway.

It so happens, the crime of murder falls under QISAS and not HUDUD. And trust me, anyone would agree to QISAS regardless of their religion.

As for me, if a Jewish gentleman name Noah Feldman who actually thinks that Islamic Penal Code is good and practical.

Funny, a guy like RPK who claims to be Muslims, giving hell about Islamic laws while a Jewish professor from Harvard wrote and article in the New York TImes to defend the Shariah.

How the world has turned upside down. Did I mention the Jewish guy is a professor of law from Harvard?

Tulang Besi a.k.a Rahman Celcom

ps i've written before about Raja Petra's shallowness in understanding Islam and the Islamic Penal Code. No matter what RPK says, majority Muslims supports the Shariah and wants it's implementation. Hell, even in Britain, the Shariah is being practiced albeit still limited.

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Comments (31) Add Comment

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written by Barking out loud, October 03, 2010 20:36:29

Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

My little knowledge of the law practiced in Malaysia, stemmed from what was known as Common Law.

The development of Common Law started by a group of traveling judges that goes around Britain and allow any accused to be tried by their peers. This literally means tried by reasoning of the people who are on the streets. That is also how we have a jury in our system.

Over time, this Common Law was brought to other parts of the world and practiced wherever the British ruled. The mere nature of this Common Law allowed people around the world to add their input or contribution to it. This Common Law is now being shared and still being developed through the courts around the world in the British Commonwealth Countries.

If you look at it carefully, you will see that the Common Law practiced in Malaysia is a mix of reasoning from people around the world no matter if they are Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, etc.

I do hope that the Malaysian Government will stop Politicizing this issue and revert to the Common Law that has been accepted by All Communities in Malaysia. This is a Multi Racial Country, thus we need a law that is fair to all and the law that we have been practicing is that of common sense and accepted around the world. There is no religion in the Common Law, please do not allow those who are ignorant to blind us.

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written by a guest, September 30, 2010 01:45:04

yeah thats rite moderator!
PAS will never deviate from our aims

from all the hates comment here, this issue will be the reason why PR will at most deny stinky BN 2/3 majority..
on one side we have rasist umNO, ass licking MCA and stupid MIC,
another side, we have Islamist PAS..
and the last, we have messy PKR and 'Islam-hating' DAP

hahaha in the end, you f*cking 'Islam-hating-no-matter-what-goodthings-PAS-did' MT readers will continue to be kick around by the cunning BN government!!!
you like that dont you? well good for you un-compromising Islam haters!!!

-9

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written by Super Admin, September 29, 2010 22:38:02

Dear 'guest' a.k.a. Tulang Besi (yes, we know this comment was posted by you), do you mean where you said, "It so happens, the crime of murder falls under QISAS and not HUDUD"? That is a fact or your opinion? Many jurists say you are wrong.

You also said: "Don't just oppose hudud without understanding it first". Don't you mean understanding it differently from how you understand it? And since it differs from how you understand it then this means we don't understand it.

You have just confirmed what was written in that article.

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written by a guest, September 29, 2010 20:59:58

I totally agree with Tulang Besi, he has a point there. RPK gives his opinion, but not necessarily that it is right. And in this case Tulang Besi's point of view is more acceptable, especially by Muslims who believes God is the only thing that matters above everything else.

Don't just oppose hudud without understanding it first.

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written by Super Admin, September 29, 2010 20:09:36

Dear Wally ma man, it may not be quite pointless. Next month we will facing the 12th by-election since March 2008 (a state seat). This state seat is under the Gua Musang parliamentary seat, which was won by Umno. There are 3 state seats under this parliamentary seat. 2 were won by Umno, which has 90% Malay-Muslim voters. 1 (the one that is going to have a by-election soon) was won by PAS, which has 36% non-Malay/non-Muslim voters. It appears like PAS won this seat because of the non-Malays/non-Muslims. PAS, therefore, needs the non-Malay/non-Muslim votes. Do I need to further explain why this issue needs to be resolved? If the non-Malays/non-Muslims get turned off by PAS then expect this seat to go to Umno.

RPK

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written by Wally, September 29, 2010 18:54:39

I will remain forever appalled by how much time is wasted discussing religion, a topic that is akin to telling adult fairy stories minus the happy endings. Death and destruction inevitably follow hard on the heels of religion!

Religion thrives today solely because of the gullibility of the masses, who by nature are a blood-thirsty lot even if they won't admit it, even to themselves. Let's be honest shall we? For pure pleasure and making you feel good about yourself and your family, nothing beats a sanctimonious religiously blessed whipping, hanging or stoning, does it?

The altars of most religions are covered in the blood of millions of innocent people killed in the name of one god or another. Nonetheless, most religious fanatics continue to view themselves as paragons of virtue, faithfully doing the work of their various mystic gods.

The hypocrisy in which most religions are wrapped, and that includes Christianity and Islam, is enough to make me view any religious fanatic as a murderer-in-waiting. You may tell me I'm wrong, but I'd say you are blind to the overwhelming historical facts that tell you I'm right! Religious zeal equals purges, which in turn equates to ungodly punishments meted out by the humble servants of the gods. The irony in this is sickening, not funny. Hasn't the world had enough yet of this unholy holy crap?

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written by a guest, September 29, 2010 15:49:24

majority Muslims supports the Shariah

Hallo idiot thick skull (Rahman Celcom), if majority had supported the Shariah law idea, PAS already the majority winner in bagging Federal seats among UMNO, PKR & DAP on the last 12th GE ! The reality now is PAS did not bagged majority seats VS others. How do you claim MAJORITY support your thick skull idea ?
Pakai otak la~ lu bodoh, diam diam la~ bising-bising tunjuk bodoh buat pa ?

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written by lysa, September 29, 2010 14:08:27

Bad things are the most occurred nowadays, what happen to Malaysian????

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written by a guest, September 29, 2010 12:46:57

They never stop blaming others for their failures and backwardness. They can operate a nation as long as the populace remains in perpetual stupor ,easily and continuously exploited and taken advantage of by a few self-proclaimed god's reps . As long as exposure to other systems is restricted ,and forbidden ,the lack of comparison ,can make them very happy. For example ,in Saudi Arabia. But the moment there is a another humane system around which allows and encourages the masses to use their god-given thinking faculty ,the self appointed controllers become paranoid of a thinking populace. Today ,despite years of indoctrination by BTN and other fanatics,who exhort supremacy of their race and religion., Malaysia has become a thinking populace that UMNO nor PAS leaders can no longer fool around using the fear of bogeyman. Playing the fear card would not work in a thinking populace which has choices ,an alternate system of Government to embrace. It is the 21st century where the supernatural can be dissected , studied ,discussed intelligently among thinking people and challenged to weed out rampant bullshit ,hoax , and most importantly FEAR of the unknown.

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written by a guest, September 29, 2010 12:23:32

written by a guest, September 28, 2010 20:55:35

huh? how come my comment is as a 'guest'?

................................................................................................................

Must be the work of those 100 IT experts they brought down to Malaysia from India to sabotage MT or else, it's APCO!!!

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written by alfchuah, September 29, 2010 12:08:46

I wonder how those people call themselves well read or studied, when they can't even differentiate that RPK doesn't criticize Islam but the bigots that cakap tak serupa bikin. If they can't even differentiate that, how can they even be leaders? Are the led stupid?

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written by Sribayu, September 29, 2010 11:46:25

Amendment : my comment below was not for this article...
sorry wrongly posted...

-1

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written by Sribayu, September 29, 2010 11:40:34

Wake up all malays...! Don't be fooled by Mahathir...
For 22 yrs....mahathir done nothing to the malay.
In reality.... as long UMNO is in power... racist sentiment have become weapons to fool rakyat in order to retain power....

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written by Fart Fart Wah, September 29, 2010 10:37:46

Which Islam am I to follow? Sunni, Shite,(considered heresy) Ahmmaddyia, sufi,(considered heresy) salafism(wahhabism) quoranists etcand which school of thought?? hanafi?shafii, malikki, hanbali etc..And of course if I ask Tulang Besi to adopt talibanism his tulang besi will become tulang lalang. You yourself in the first place do not know which Islam is the true Islam. Just like the Christian groups each saying they have the true teachings of Jesus Muslims also are having so many branches of Islam and thoughts. Only one difference. Christians have stopped almost killing each other claiming this except where politics is concerned like Ireland. In Islam killing another Muslim of a different sect is no problem as can be seen in Iraq and other parts of Africa. 1400 years yes..but the barbaric version of the hudud is still continued. The hudud way of killing is barbaric there is no mercy. It is inhuman. Chopping off hands, chopping of your thingy and stoning. These were required when people were barbarians when rape, plunder, murder were common. Anyway most of the hudud is a direct xerox of the Leviticus of the old testament in the Torah of the Jews. So Muslims are in fact following a large part of Jewish law that is why the Professor whatever(Noah Feldman) agrees with it. Only thing he did not state is ' it looks like our Torah , smells like our Torah , sounds like our Torah but it is the hudud."
You see Tulang lalang...Jews are shrewd...good market for his book if it can be sold also to Muslims.
For me PAS and BNUMNO are practising bullshit Islam. Islam in its purest sense does not see man based on his religion..it allows him to co exist and let Allah be the judge finally. It does not ask you to go and peep to see who is committing kalwat, not fasting or bonking someone's else's wife but allow the elite to get away because they are protected with security and other means(posh hotels) to avoid being caught. So you tulang lalalang cannot even mete out justice fairly..You catch the poor Malay fellow talking with his girlfriend in the Lake Gardens but you cannot catch JayJay bonking the Samusuddin girl which ends in a murder. Only Allah can mete out fair justice. You cannot mete our stoning for murder even with so much of evidence of Altuntaya( who is a convert Muslim ..blown not buried facing Mecca) but Allah can.
Even in the case of Anwar Ibrahim you cannot even mete out a fair trial on sodomy( 4 witnesses needed) using your hudud kudud. You and UMNO bend the civil law and the syariah law thus abusing all the laws. What guarantee can you give me if Malaysia becomes an Islamic State that the hudud will be meted out to all fairly. 40% of Malaysians are not Muslims. The founding fathers of Malaysia have said it with one voice..we wil be a secular state. But PAS want to change it and if possible shake hands with UMNO to do it.
PAS cannot be trusted. They remind me Ali baba and the 40 thieves. They change when it suits them not the people. And all for power, by using Allah they become little allahs.
Take religion out of politics...Allah is not a politician..a politician lies and bends and manipulates..

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written by popuri, September 29, 2010 10:22:26

PAS and Umno is obviously in the same category. Vote either one, and you will still get the same outcome.

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written by a guest, September 29, 2010 08:36:29

By definition, religious laws can only bind those who are of that religion. It is exclusive and not inclusive in that sense. It does not include me. It excludes me. It binds the Muslims from birth and by Malaysian standards, Muslims have no freedom of religion and the freedom of choice in religion in this country. If the Muslims wish to have hudud and qisas laws, then so be it. It would be them who would ultimate pay the highest price in terms of personal freedom that the modern world has bequethed to humanity.

To those who would welcome any exclusive religious laws, be warned, that all religious laws and religious law makers suffer from the defect of thinking themselves to be perfect and above challenge or improvements - since the concept is that my God is the true God and our God's laws must therefore be perfect. Setting such laws in the modern era only drives away talent and modernity and returns the populace to year zero.

Tulang besi, you can't even fix the problems with the sijil faraid or alimony payments to first wives dumped by Muslim men, you want to convince me that hudud and qisas is a good system.... you got to be kidding me.

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written by usurper, September 29, 2010 07:36:58

"As for me, if a Jewish gentleman name Noah Feldman who actually thinks that Islamic Penal Code is good and practical."
RPK you are right. As long as you agree with these ar**holes then even a Jew is a Gentleman. Otherwise they are Zionist PIGS. Sigh... now you know why the non-muslims are against Islam, they just can't come to terms with all this stupidity that arises from people associated with it. Please..please Allah get Mohammad to come back as Buddha, Krishna or Jesus and tell us all that Hudud has failed just like our NEP and Ketuanan Melayu.

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written by Milo, September 29, 2010 03:47:46

"The Islamic Penal Code has been in practiced for 1400 years and NO ONE complained about it's implementation." - Rahman Celcom
----------------------------------

NO ONE complained???? Here are two current ones...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUp7QLyjWLk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3BBLt6bLMA&feature=related

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written by Milo, September 28, 2010 22:30:20

To sum up...UMNO represents racisism & corruption; PAS represents religious bigotry & extremism...Malaysia is going towards the dark ages either way...haiz!

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written by cheekhiaw, September 28, 2010 21:24:53

Talking about politics from the dark ages with idiots from the dark ages...

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written by a guest, September 28, 2010 21:09:12

Yeah, me too. Hellosunshine

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written by a guest, September 28, 2010 21:07:46

"The Islamic Penal Code has been in practiced for 1400 years and NO ONE complained about it's implementation." - Rahman Celcom
Oi otak besi, no one complained because they were either stoned to death or beheaded. What if there was a miscarriage of justice or the poor guy was set up ala Sodomy I and II and later new proof found the condemned not guilty? Ooops! Sorry, need to reattach his head or his hands or his dick. If Anwar had been found guilty by Hudud law in Sodomy I, there will not be any Sodomy II, right? And there would not be any, pain in the umnoputra arse, Anwar now. Yeah, I can see those umnoputras' eyes light up. smilies/cheesy.gif

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written by a guest, September 28, 2010 20:55:35

huh? how come my comment is as a 'guest'?

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written by a guest, September 28, 2010 20:53:37

criminals are getting more daring, more violent, more evil.
criminals are now not only the unschooled lout on the street but also the so-called learned respectable religious members of society who have no excuse whatsoever to be ignorant of what is right and wrong and what is legal or illegal.
why is it that punishment, no matter how severe, is no longer a deterrent?
it is becos the criminal knows he can get away with it - it is becos nobody is doing the job of catching him!!!
so let's not play the gallery and go about championing the types of punishment to deter crimes.
we have ample laws to punish already.
Just find a way to ensure the criminal is CAUGHT..... especially the very first time he commits a crime.
I wonder which institution is responsible for that? smilies/tongue.gif

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written by earthman, September 28, 2010 19:37:17

This is all the teachings in the Koran. The Koran says if one follows the Koran one is smart and they who reject Islam is foolish and condemned . Because the Koran came from god their Allah. So everything must be correct. Also in the Koran ,their Allah would protect the Muslims and punish the ignorants or so called infidels. That is why they refused to listen to sound reasonings and facts.
The reason these Muslims can't reason anymore is because they are so brain dead by the daily indoctrination and chantings. At one time the communists almost overcome the world, also because of indoctrination in communism. Without the help from the west the Muslims world would have been suppressed under the communist Soviet power. Now we face another form of threat from indoctrinated followers of the Islamic teachings. No reasoning can or will make them see the truth and facts. But all this must happen that God maybe glorified. When you see Jerusalem is surrounded by its enemies, the time has come and God will show His power and glory. Yes He will.

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written by a guest, September 28, 2010 19:31:44

Rahman Celcom said:
Funny, a guy like RPK who claims to be Muslims, giving hell about Islamic laws while a Jewish professor from Harvard wrote and article in the New York TImes to defend the Shariah.

There is evidence that hudud is from the Hadis and Hadis is from Jews.!!!
Proof :...
The israk Miktaj hadis says that Jewish prophets Moses and Jesus adviced prophet Mohammad and Allah to reduce the on of solats planned by Allah from 50 solats a day to 45,40 untill the no dropped to 5 solats a day..
Tthis is proof that Bukhari and Muslim could br Jews because thay implied that Jewish prophets Moses and Jesus is smarter than prophet Mohamad and Allah.and that Allah is a flip flop planner of solat(prayer)
The Hadis mocks Islam,the prophet Mohammad and even Allah.

So Rahman Celcom, we have proven that hudud which is part of the Shariah. has an unIslamic and Jewish origin.

You are welcome to debate with me on my article "Bohong Sunnat = Lahwal Hadis" at.....

http://warongpakyeh.b******t.com

.

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written by bambooman, September 28, 2010 19:25:59

Islam may only be 1400 years but it breeds the BIGGEST EGO ! ! !.........just take a look at all the UMNO members ! ! !.........and they called themselves TRUE muslims ! ! !
how true could it get ? ? ?

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written by Better My, September 28, 2010 19:04:20

Grow with the times,Tulang Besi a.k.a Rahman Celcom

Hypothetical.
If hudud is implemented fully with its full horrors, Malaysia will become a extreme muslim country which willl attract more extremists from around the Arab world. The nomal malay are no match for these hardcore extremists. And the perception of a extreme relgious malaysian will put a halt to malaysia dvelopments in its track with Malaysia put on the map as an intolerant country. The chinese wont be hanging around fo see its implemenatation while the nation burns to ashes.

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written by syd, September 28, 2010 18:31:38

To PAS members there is only one god. The stone god they bow, prostrate and kiss in mecca. Only the believers of their religion cannot see the obvious. the others can.

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written by a guest, September 28, 2010 17:40:24

Just don't understand why Islam has become the most complicated religion in the World. In most Islamic countries the religion is being abused left, right, center by those in power in order to gain control of the wealth and the people. It also seems like most Muslims are very emotional and went ballistic when someone poke fun at their religion. Are the Muslims suffering from growing up pain?

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written by panca, September 28, 2010 17:40:10

Ignorance is where arrogance feast upon to boast nothing but inflate the ego, the greatest ignorance itself whereupon the likeness of light does not cater to the mind that is blind.

How round object are being pushed through square holes and vice-versa!