People of the other Abrahamic religions also call their God Allah, which is the same God for the Muslims. There is only one God for all. There are no three Gods. There are no separate Gods for Jews, Christians and Muslims. And all the three -- the Jews, Christians and Muslims -- believe in the God of Abraham. So how can only Muslims be allowed use of the word 'Allah' while all others are banned from using this word?
NO HOLDS BARRED
Raja Petra Kamarudin
The mainstream newspapers keep talking about the perhimpunan haram that the Anti-ISA Movement (AIM, or GMI in Malay), BERSIH and HINDRAF are organising or have organised. Now, we must understand that the mainstream newspapers are either government-owned or ruling party-owned. Those that may be privately-owned or are not affiliated to the ruling party still have to exercise some form of self-censorship to ensure that their annual licences get renewed when it is up for review.
Many independent-minded newspapers have found their licences not renewed come year-end because they did not understand the difference between the term 'independent' and 'independent-minded'. You may be independent as long as you are not independent-minded, just like Malaysia allows freedom of speech although it does not allow freedom AFTER speech. You are free to speak. You are not free after you speak. So you can be independent as long as you are not independent-minded and as long as you follow to the letter and to the spirit what the government wants you to do. If you understand this then life will be a bowl of cherries. If not.....well, you know what if not.
The word 'haram' (meaning 'forbidden') is always used after the word 'perhimpunan' (meaning 'gathering' or 'assembly'). This is to psych you into believing that you are doing something wrong by gathering or assembling. Under Malaysia's Police Act, you are required to apply for a police permit at least 14 days before any gathering/assembly. Normally, the police will reject your application on grounds of 'national security'. You can of course appeal to the Minister, but if the police has ruled your planned gathering/assembly as a threat to the peace, stability and security of this nation, then very seldom would the Minister overrule this police decision.
There are times, and this is quite often, when the police would reject your application on the eleventh hour, say on the day of the gathering/assembly itself. So this gives you very little time to appeal to the Minister who is also the Prime Minister -- and who is out of the country almost every two weeks so you can hardly catch him in the office to be able to appeal the police decision. Then there are times when the police will approve your application and then withdraw the approval on the day of the gathering/assembly even as you begin to assemble and the crowd begins to build up. This was what happened in Batu Burok, Kuala Terengganu, recently and that was why the crowd did not disperse. They had been told that the police had granted the permit for the assembly and they were not aware that the police had withdrawn the permit barely a few hours before the event.
The word 'haram' is very effective because Malays are constantly bombarded with the words 'haram' (forbidden) and 'halal' (kosher) from the day they are born. Malays grow up questioning everything 'haram' and 'halal' because they have been indoctrinated and conditioned to do so. This is within the Malay psyche and culture.
Interest is haram, so you must borrow money from an 'Islamic' bank, not from a 'kafir' (infidel) bank. Okay, the Islamic bank charges you a fixed 'profit' rate of, say, 10% per annum. Interest may actually be lower than that, so your borrowing cost from a 'kafir' bank can actually be lower than that from an 'Islamic' bank. But the 'kafir' bank charges you interest, which is haram, while an 'Islamic' bank charges you 'profit'. So this is not haram even though it may be higher.
Can you see how the choice of a word determines whether you get to go to heaven or hell even though the act may be the same? Killing for the sake of profit ensures you hell while killing for the sake of religion ensures you heaven. Committing suicide because of desperation ensures you hell while committing suicide because of religion ensures you heaven. You need to play with words to ensure that you get rewarded with heaven and to ensure you avoid getting sent to hell. Unfortunately, swine that is slaughtered the proper Islamic way is still haram in spite of the method used in killing the animal complies to the Islamic shariah.
So, the choice of a word is extremely important and therefore using the word 'haram' after the word 'perhimpunan' gives Malays the feeling that anyone who indulges in any gathering or assembly of more than four people, and in the same process does not have a police permit, is committing a very serious crime. Okay, you may say that the government is pulling the wool over the eyes of the Malays and are taking them for suckers by calling gatherings or rallies 'perhimpunan haram'. Well, if the government can also pull the wool over God's eyes and take Him for a sucker by replacing the word 'interest' with the word 'profit' and then call the entire usury system 'Bank Islam', then I suppose bluffing the Malays is small potatoes by comparison.
Another word that has been declared haram is the word 'Allah'. It is of course not made haram for Muslims. Only non-Muslims may not use that word. But this is only in Malaysia. It makes one wonder whether Malaysia has filed a copyright for the exclusive use of the word just like how Harley Davidson has patented the sound of their exhaust. That's right, Harley Davidson has sole use of the sound that is emitted from the exhaust pipes of its motorcycles and the Japanese, Germans, Italians, etc., may not build motorcycles that produce the same sound as the Harley Davidson motorcycle. That is like Britney Spears patenting the sound of her fart. Can you imagine no one being allowed to release a fart that sounds like hers?
Allah is in fact the Arabic word for 'God'. It is said that the term is most likely derived from a condensation of the Arabic article 'al' (the) and 'ilah' (deity or god). So Allah would mean 'the (or 'sole') God' (the one and only God, so to speak). There is another theory that traces the etymology of the word to the Aramaic Alaha, and Aramaic was the language that Jesus Christ used.
No doubt, while the term is commonly used by Muslims as a reference to God, it is also used by Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, in reference to 'God'. Therefore, Arabs of the Jewish and Christian faiths also refer to God as 'Allah'.
During pre-Islamic times, the pagan Arabs also referred to their creator-god or their supreme deity (number one God) as Allah. So the word 'Allah' is not quite an Islamic word for God. It was also a pre-Islamic word for God, although the Arabs then believed in 360 different Gods. Allah, in pre-Islamic times, was not the sole divinity. He had associates and companions plus sons and daughters. There was also a kind of kinship between Allah and the jinn. But Allah was the boss of all Gods to the Arabs then.
So, gatherings and rallies are haram. Now, the use of the word 'Allah' by non-Muslims is also haram. Gatherings and rallies are of course not haram according to Prophet Muhammad's Islam. It is only haram according to Hadhari's Islam. And the use of the word 'Allah' is not haram according to the Prophet's Islam. It is only haram according to Hadhari's Islam.
Islam, in fact, requires that you congregate and do things in a group or as a community. You are encouraged to pray in a group or community, better than doing it alone. You are encouraged to eat in a group or community, better than doing it alone. You are encouraged to travel in a group or community, better than doing it alone. And you are encouraged to gather in a group or community; you certainly cannot gather alone or else it will not be called gathering. In fact, mosques are places where you gather to discuss matters that concern the community. You of course also pray in these mosques, but that is done for only a few minutes, five times a day. In between that, the balance 23 hours of the 24 hours, you gather at the mosques to discuss important matters.
It is mandatory for Muslims to become involved in matters that concern the community. You cannot just suddenly appear at the mosque to pray and then disappear immediately after that until the next prayer time. That would make you a very bad Muslim. You must participate in whatever discussions and meetings that are held and which seek to improve the lot of the community and society. Islam is a religion of the community. The community comes first. And you do things as a community, for the sake of the entire community, so that the community progresses and improves.
Gatherings or rallies, therefore, is very much an Islamic thing. And mosques were designed to enable these gatherings or rallies to take place. The lunchtime Friday prayers, which Muslims believe to be compulsory, are gatherings. The annual pilgrimage to Mekah are also gatherings, which Muslims believe you must perform at least once in your lifetime. Gatherings are not haram. Gatherings are wajib (mandatory). And you gather not only to pray but to discuss, debate, brainstorm, deliberate, analyse, propose, reflect, dissect, argue, reconcile, table, and to do whatever it takes to sort out the ills of the community and find solutions for its betterment.
So, perhimpunan haram, as what the Malaysian government declares them to be, are not haram. They are very much Islamic and required by Islam. And I challenge any 'member of the cloth', those bearded people in robes and white skull caps, to prove me wrong. Tell me that the Arabs during the days of Prophet Muhammad did not gather to discuss matters concerning their community. Tell me that the Arabs during the time of Prophet Muhammad did not discuss, debate, brainstorm, deliberate, analyse, propose, reflect, dissect, argue, reconcile, table, etc., in these gatherings so that they could find solutions to problems affecting their community. Tell me that the Arabs during the time of Prophet Muhammad did not find solutions and come out with resolutions when they discuss, debate, brainstorm, deliberate, analyse, propose, reflect, dissect, argue, reconcile, table, etc., at these gatherings, which they then confronted their leaders with. If gatherings (perhimpunan) are haram (forbidden), then the Arabs during the time of the Prophet Muhammad were a very immoral community and why the hell are we being told to follow the ummah (community) of Prophet Muhammad?
And the same goes for the use of the word 'Allah'. Was not 'Allah' the word that pre-Islamic, pagan Arabs used in reference to God? And is not that same word used today by Jew and Christian Arabs in reference to God? Furthermore, does not Islam teach us that Jews, Christians, and Muslims are all followers of Abraham and that we all believe in the same God, the one and only God called Allah? And is that not why Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all referred to as the Abrahamic faiths?
Yes, we all share the same God. So why can't we all share the same name for this God? In fact, Abraham, Moses and Jesus are all mentioned in the Quran. And the Quran tells us that Islam is not a new religion but the religion of Abraham. And people of the other Abrahamic religions also call their God Allah, which is the same God for the Muslims. There is only one God for all. There are no three Gods. There are no separate Gods for Jews, Christians and Muslims. And all the three -- the Jews, Christians and Muslims -- believe in the God of Abraham. So how can only Muslims be allowed use of the word 'Allah' while all others are banned from using this word?
Comments (422)
...
written by Panca Indera, February 18, 2008 16:35:18
written by Panca Indera, February 18, 2008 16:35:18
Salam
Dear Mimag2005
Remember the saying,
"One who angers you, conquers you!"
You have proof your point, so take it easy.
No need to push up your Blood Pressure.
There are other battles to defend Islam with honour. ALLah does not need defending, but we have to defend Islam because we love Allah Right?
God bless and God speed in your endeavor .
Salam
Dear Mimag2005
Remember the saying,
"One who angers you, conquers you!"
You have proof your point, so take it easy.
No need to push up your Blood Pressure.
There are other battles to defend Islam with honour. ALLah does not need defending, but we have to defend Islam because we love Allah Right?
God bless and God speed in your endeavor .
Salam
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written by mimag2005, February 17, 2008 13:52:11
Hi Avanza…!
Good evening..
I am back..!
written by Avanza1, February 16, 2008 | 01:58:04
I will rest my case here. I have made my points. Up to you to accept….
............................................................................
Re RESURRECTION - The Gospel “TRUTH†or Greatest HOAX in History
.......................................
01)I will rest my case here.
What do you mean...???
02)I have made my points.
-Where are your points..???
-Where are your rebuts….???
03)Up to you to accept.
With NOTHING from you on the Resurrection…How/What to accept ..??
Tsk,tsk,tsk,.. typical, typical Avanza - Always putting “ cart before DONKEY!! “
04)Either you want to bring job to God or Satan up to you.
This question is more apt for you to reply…
So far you have committed LIES and made Allegations without PROOFS..!!
Is this how God operate…??? OR…..
This is how SATAN operate…!!...???
Upto now, your track record shows you are SATAN’s DEVOUT FOLLOWER..!!!
05A) Please check yr facts first and don't follow some Christianophic websites.
Which part of my account on the Resurrection were not facts ??
Unlike you… I accept HARD facts… even if its against me….
05B)… don’t follow some Christianophic websites.
--- You should practice what you preach…
06)Look like you don't know what is 'Resurrection' from the points you posted.
Excellent …!!! So… you know what is ‘ Resurrection ‘…!!
Please post your points to enable me decide accordingly..
07)Pray God will open you eyes.
For your soul sake, I hope asap cause…. You are suffering from ‘Blurred’ vision and ‘ Brain Stroke ‘ …..being so, so close to Satan’s breath…
0 however many persons are behind minag2005 login.
Only me and me only…!!
09) Avanza, you have many PENDING cases to respond.
If you claim to be a TRUTHFUL CHRISTIAN, you MUST respond …!!
Such as …..
10)On 6th Feb, you made IRRESPONSIBLE ACCUSATIONS and LIES against the QurAn’s Established Scientific Facts about the Universe, Embryology etc etc.
…. Are you a TRUTHFUL CHRISTIAN…??
…. You are supposed to back up your ACUSATIONS with Biblical records or other Ancient records supported by Established Scientific facts…
11)The Bible say “ Moon gives out HER OWN LIGHT “.
Why are you keeping silent…???
Are you “ at loss for words “ to learn of “ God inspired “ Bible’s Revelation…???
In earlier post you felt honoured to confirm Bible records stating a “SPHERICAL “ Earth have “ FOUR CORNERS “..!!
By the way, my 12 year old niece, who loves to giggle, wants to know whether you have successfully establish the exact location of the 4 corners of miniature Earth a.k.a “chicken egg “ ..???
12)What about the Resurrection….???
What about the “ SIGN “ of Jonah…??
Do you agree the sign of Jonah that Jesus meant was about Jonah being “ ALIVE ALL THE TIME â€Â.. and similarly Jesus was also “ ALIVE ALL THE TIME..â€Â
Thereby confirming Jesus did not die and… “RESURRECTION ON THE THIRD DAY†.. was actually a LIE… ONE of History’s GREATEST HOAX…!!!!
………â�
?¦â€¦â€¦â€¦. OR………ââ??
?¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦.
Do you like to produce your counter based on the “ SIMILIARITIES “ of “ 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the Fish “ ..with... “ 3 days and 3 nights in the depth of the earth…???â€Â
You will need more than Einstein’s Formula...to reconcile these 3,3,3,3..!!
However if you want to “ Escape†...I have a requiem prepared especially for you….
….BANG!!,,BANG!!.. So claim Avanza….
Awesome indeed this Crusader Avanza...!!!
“ A Crusade “...A Crusade “…..did he swear...
Bullets flying......everywhere....!!!
Crusader’s bullets hit the wall...
The wooden boards...of the wall..
What a shock..!!! What a mock...!!!
Avanza’s bullets could not “sockâ€Â...!!
All it did was sound like PLOCK...!!!
Making Avanza’s mouth... LOCKED..!!!
What a shame...What a sham....
Avanza’s best is SATAN’s jest...!!!
Oh...Oh....Earth’s 4 corner...Made Avanza a goner....
Oh! Crusader....Oh! Avanza...
Hear..!! Hear..!! You’ve been told...
Out came giggles from a 12 year old...
“Crusader†Avanza was made to fold...!!!
...Avanza..Avanza..†why kickest thou with thine own pricks...!!“
.......................
written by mimag2005, February 17, 2008 13:52:11
Hi Avanza…!
Good evening..
I am back..!
written by Avanza1, February 16, 2008 | 01:58:04
I will rest my case here. I have made my points. Up to you to accept….
............................................................................
Re RESURRECTION - The Gospel “TRUTH†or Greatest HOAX in History
.......................................
01)I will rest my case here.
What do you mean...???
02)I have made my points.
-Where are your points..???
-Where are your rebuts….???
03)Up to you to accept.
With NOTHING from you on the Resurrection…How/What to accept ..??
Tsk,tsk,tsk,.. typical, typical Avanza - Always putting “ cart before DONKEY!! “
04)Either you want to bring job to God or Satan up to you.
This question is more apt for you to reply…
So far you have committed LIES and made Allegations without PROOFS..!!
Is this how God operate…??? OR…..
This is how SATAN operate…!!...???
Upto now, your track record shows you are SATAN’s DEVOUT FOLLOWER..!!!
05A) Please check yr facts first and don't follow some Christianophic websites.
Which part of my account on the Resurrection were not facts ??
Unlike you… I accept HARD facts… even if its against me….
05B)… don’t follow some Christianophic websites.
--- You should practice what you preach…
06)Look like you don't know what is 'Resurrection' from the points you posted.
Excellent …!!! So… you know what is ‘ Resurrection ‘…!!
Please post your points to enable me decide accordingly..
07)Pray God will open you eyes.
For your soul sake, I hope asap cause…. You are suffering from ‘Blurred’ vision and ‘ Brain Stroke ‘ …..being so, so close to Satan’s breath…
0
however many persons are behind minag2005 login. Only me and me only…!!
09) Avanza, you have many PENDING cases to respond.
If you claim to be a TRUTHFUL CHRISTIAN, you MUST respond …!!
Such as …..
10)On 6th Feb, you made IRRESPONSIBLE ACCUSATIONS and LIES against the QurAn’s Established Scientific Facts about the Universe, Embryology etc etc.
…. Are you a TRUTHFUL CHRISTIAN…??
…. You are supposed to back up your ACUSATIONS with Biblical records or other Ancient records supported by Established Scientific facts…
11)The Bible say “ Moon gives out HER OWN LIGHT “.
Why are you keeping silent…???
Are you “ at loss for words “ to learn of “ God inspired “ Bible’s Revelation…???
In earlier post you felt honoured to confirm Bible records stating a “SPHERICAL “ Earth have “ FOUR CORNERS “..!!
By the way, my 12 year old niece, who loves to giggle, wants to know whether you have successfully establish the exact location of the 4 corners of miniature Earth a.k.a “chicken egg “ ..???
12)What about the Resurrection….???
What about the “ SIGN “ of Jonah…??
Do you agree the sign of Jonah that Jesus meant was about Jonah being “ ALIVE ALL THE TIME â€Â.. and similarly Jesus was also “ ALIVE ALL THE TIME..â€Â
Thereby confirming Jesus did not die and… “RESURRECTION ON THE THIRD DAY†.. was actually a LIE… ONE of History’s GREATEST HOAX…!!!!
………â�
?¦â€¦â€¦â€¦. OR………ââ??
?¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦.
Do you like to produce your counter based on the “ SIMILIARITIES “ of “ 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the Fish “ ..with... “ 3 days and 3 nights in the depth of the earth…???â€Â
You will need more than Einstein’s Formula...to reconcile these 3,3,3,3..!!
However if you want to “ Escape†...I have a requiem prepared especially for you….
….BANG!!,,BANG!!.. So claim Avanza….
Awesome indeed this Crusader Avanza...!!!
“ A Crusade “...A Crusade “…..did he swear...
Bullets flying......everywhere....!!!
Crusader’s bullets hit the wall...
The wooden boards...of the wall..
What a shock..!!! What a mock...!!!
Avanza’s bullets could not “sockâ€Â...!!
All it did was sound like PLOCK...!!!
Making Avanza’s mouth... LOCKED..!!!
What a shame...What a sham....
Avanza’s best is SATAN’s jest...!!!
Oh...Oh....Earth’s 4 corner...Made Avanza a goner....
Oh! Crusader....Oh! Avanza...
Hear..!! Hear..!! You’ve been told...
Out came giggles from a 12 year old...
“Crusader†Avanza was made to fold...!!!
...Avanza..Avanza..†why kickest thou with thine own pricks...!!“
.......................
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-
...
written by Avanza1, February 15, 2008 17:58:04
written by Avanza1, February 15, 2008 17:58:04
I will rest my case here. I have made my points. Up to you to accept. Either you want to bring job to God or Satan up to you. Please check yr facts first and don't follow some Christianophic websites. Look like you don't know what is 'Resurrection' from the points you posted. Pray God will open you eyes, however many persons are behind minag2005 login.
-
- +1
-
-
...
written by mimag2005, February 12, 2008 23:05:28
Resurrection – One of Christianity’s “ Main Engine “
.....................................................
…Genesis CH 5 (NIV)
21When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. 24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
See Hebrews 11:5 (NIV )
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
2 Kings 2:11 (NIV)
As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
07C) So..was RESURRECTION EXCLUSIVELY MEANT FOR JESUS…??...
Answer : NO..!
Prophets and Holy men too were resurrected.
Infact Prophets Enoch and Elijah made a GRANDER EXIT THAN JESUSt… they went up to heaven in bodily form without going thru death…!!!
From the above account.. you will agree that..SO MUCH HYPE ABOUT JESUS RESURRECTION is after all… NOTHING TO HYPE ABOUT…NOTHING SENSATIONAL …!!!
0Did Jesus promise to give a SPECIAL SIGN …??..
Answer…YES..!!!
09) Lets go to Matthew Ch 12
................................
38Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
So we ask ourselves… Out of the many earlier Prophets… why did Jesus chose the sign of Prophet Jonah…..
What is so MIRACULOUS ABOUT THE SIGN of Prophet Jonah…??
To cut the story short.....
God gave Jonah an assignment and he went AWOL… took a ship to escape..
God made the sea very rough, winds very strong sampai the kapal hampir2 mau pecah…
To save the ship’s crew members Jonah volunteered to be thrown into the raging seas.
After being thrown into the raging sea, God send a Big Fish to swallow him up…as in…..
Jonah Ch 1… : 17… Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
Any thing special from this incident ?
01)You are SUPPOSED TO DIE when thrown into the raging seas
02)You are SUPPOSED TO DIE when being swallowed by a Fish
03)You are SUPPOSED TO DIE when you are in the Fish belly for 3 days and 3 nights…
If Prophet Jonah had died in ANY ONE OF THESE INCIDENTS… IT IS TO BE EXPECTED
Avanza…….please tell me if anyone encountered this type of continuous problems..I SAY 200 PERCENT HE BECOMES HISTORY….
Avanza if you disagree…raise up your right hand (since your left hand still holding the egg’s 4 corners) ….!!!
So did Prophet Jonah die.. after going thru one impossible problem after another…?
Lets go to Jonah Ch2 :1..
......Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly………
.....After going through ALL these IMPOSSIBLE ODDS, Jonah was PRAYING TO GOD !....
……….. JONAH DID NOT DIE…!!!
…..JONAH WAS ALIVE ..!!
..........CAN YOU IMAGINE … JONAH WAS ALIVE ALL THE TIME…..!!!!!..........
..........SO….THIS WAS JONAH’s MIRACULOUS SIGN… !!..............
….JESUS SAID HE WILL GIVE A MRACULOUS SIGN LIKE JONAH……that means when everybody
expect..... Jesus to die… he is..... ACTUALLY ALIVE..!!!!...........BUT….
.......EVERY CHRISTIAN SAY…including you, Avanza …. Jesus DIED ON THE CROSS....
Ok lah …YOU MAKE THE DECISION HOW YOUR GOD JESUS MUST DIE TO SUIT YOUR TASTE…….because according to your decision ….. JESUS will give a miraculous sign UNLIKE JONAH …..!!!!!
Basis the above mentioned account.........you will NEVER FIND EVEN ONE PROPHESY ON RESURRECTION ON THE THIRD DAYIN THE OLD TESTAMENT BECAUSE JESUS PROMISED TO GIVE A MIRACULOUS SIGN ABOUT HIM BEING
...................ALIVE !!! .....AND NOT ...........DEAD..!!!
NEXT ROUND …. IS JESUS GOD ( TRINITY )……
………â�
?¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â?
?‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦
written by mimag2005, February 12, 2008 23:05:28
Resurrection – One of Christianity’s “ Main Engine “
.....................................................
…Genesis CH 5 (NIV)
21When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. 24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
See Hebrews 11:5 (NIV )
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
2 Kings 2:11 (NIV)
As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
07C) So..was RESURRECTION EXCLUSIVELY MEANT FOR JESUS…??...
Answer : NO..!
Prophets and Holy men too were resurrected.
Infact Prophets Enoch and Elijah made a GRANDER EXIT THAN JESUSt… they went up to heaven in bodily form without going thru death…!!!
From the above account.. you will agree that..SO MUCH HYPE ABOUT JESUS RESURRECTION is after all… NOTHING TO HYPE ABOUT…NOTHING SENSATIONAL …!!!
0
Did Jesus promise to give a SPECIAL SIGN …??.. Answer…YES..!!!
09) Lets go to Matthew Ch 12
................................
38Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
So we ask ourselves… Out of the many earlier Prophets… why did Jesus chose the sign of Prophet Jonah…..
What is so MIRACULOUS ABOUT THE SIGN of Prophet Jonah…??
To cut the story short.....
God gave Jonah an assignment and he went AWOL… took a ship to escape..
God made the sea very rough, winds very strong sampai the kapal hampir2 mau pecah…
To save the ship’s crew members Jonah volunteered to be thrown into the raging seas.
After being thrown into the raging sea, God send a Big Fish to swallow him up…as in…..
Jonah Ch 1… : 17… Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
Any thing special from this incident ?
01)You are SUPPOSED TO DIE when thrown into the raging seas
02)You are SUPPOSED TO DIE when being swallowed by a Fish
03)You are SUPPOSED TO DIE when you are in the Fish belly for 3 days and 3 nights…
If Prophet Jonah had died in ANY ONE OF THESE INCIDENTS… IT IS TO BE EXPECTED
Avanza…….please tell me if anyone encountered this type of continuous problems..I SAY 200 PERCENT HE BECOMES HISTORY….
Avanza if you disagree…raise up your right hand (since your left hand still holding the egg’s 4 corners) ….!!!
So did Prophet Jonah die.. after going thru one impossible problem after another…?
Lets go to Jonah Ch2 :1..
......Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly………
.....After going through ALL these IMPOSSIBLE ODDS, Jonah was PRAYING TO GOD !....
……….. JONAH DID NOT DIE…!!!
…..JONAH WAS ALIVE ..!!
..........CAN YOU IMAGINE … JONAH WAS ALIVE ALL THE TIME…..!!!!!..........
..........SO….THIS WAS JONAH’s MIRACULOUS SIGN… !!..............
….JESUS SAID HE WILL GIVE A MRACULOUS SIGN LIKE JONAH……that means when everybody
expect..... Jesus to die… he is..... ACTUALLY ALIVE..!!!!...........BUT….
.......EVERY CHRISTIAN SAY…including you, Avanza …. Jesus DIED ON THE CROSS....
Ok lah …YOU MAKE THE DECISION HOW YOUR GOD JESUS MUST DIE TO SUIT YOUR TASTE…….because according to your decision ….. JESUS will give a miraculous sign UNLIKE JONAH …..!!!!!
Basis the above mentioned account.........you will NEVER FIND EVEN ONE PROPHESY ON RESURRECTION ON THE THIRD DAYIN THE OLD TESTAMENT BECAUSE JESUS PROMISED TO GIVE A MIRACULOUS SIGN ABOUT HIM BEING
...................ALIVE !!! .....AND NOT ...........DEAD..!!!
NEXT ROUND …. IS JESUS GOD ( TRINITY )……
………â�
?¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â?
?‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦
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written by mimag2005, February 12, 2008 23:03:56
Hi Avanza,
I may have to take a respite in the coming days...
Don’t want you to think this sudden “ incommunicado “ as a sign of me “ raising the white flag “..
...while you busy SNIFFING at peoples garden....
I will present one of the Greatest Hoax in History....
Resurrection – One of Christianity’s “ Main Engine “
.....................................................
01)Paul said...if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.1 Cor15 :14 .
That means if Jesus did not die ( crucified on the cross) ..and....RESURRECTED ON THE THIRD DAY....!!..there will NOT BE .....A RELIGION CALLED CHRISTIANITY....!!!
02) For such a MAJOR EVENT/DOCTRINE ...THERE IS NO SUCH PROPHESY foretold in the Old Testament......SHOCKING.......!!!
03) WHY NO PROPHESY...???
04) Resurrection means....â€Â...becoming alive after being dead..!!...…â€Â
05) How does a Resurrected Body look like..?? …..
....Lets go to Luke Ch 20 : V 35/36..the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and THEY CAN NO LONGER DIE; for they are like the angels...
This means once a person has been resurrected.. his resurrected body will be like the angels..i.e. A SPIRITUALISED BODY...NOT A PHYSICAL BODY...and this spiritualised body will not die a second time...
Hebrews ch 9 : V 27...And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
THEREFORE A RESURRECTED BODY HAS CONQUERED DEATH...!!
06) IF Jesus was Crucified and Resurrected, as BELIEVED by the 1,800,000,000 Followers of Christianity, why did Jesus, with a RESURRECTED BODY..and HAVING CONQUERED DEATH.. acted strangely after the crucifixion…...??. e.g.
aa)...John 20: 15 (NIV)....thinking he was the gardener, she said... Sir, if you have carried HIM away, tell me where you have PUT HIM, and I WILL GET HIM."
-Why did Mary Magdalene thought he was a gardener...?
-Does Spiritualise body look like gardeners...?
-Why did Jesus disguised himself to look like a gardener...???... Jesus should know that a spiritualised body has conquered death..!!!
- What was Jesus worried or afraid of...???
bb) John 20: 15…. she said…. Sir, if you have carried HIM away, tell me where you have PUT HIM, and I WILL GET HIM."
-Do you call a corpse HIM or IT...???
-Do you carry a corpse and bury or ...carry a corpse and put...??
cc)John 20: 15….†and I WILL GET HIM."
-Do you CARRY a corpse or…you GET a corpse…?
-If a person is ALIVE you go and GET HIM or FETCH HIM…!!
-If Jesus body is a corpse..then Mary Magdalene must be having the strength of a “WONDER WOMAN “ to be able to carry Jesus’s STINKING CORPSE ( DEAD 3 DAYS)corpse all by herself...??
dd) John 20 : 16… Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).
-Upon recognizing his voice/tone, mary Magdalene happily cried out...?
-Why was Mary not afraid..? because she was a witness and knew Jesus did not die..as the ordeal he went through was too short a time to cause death....
-
-Even ...Pilate WAS SURPRISED to hear that he was already dead....
(MARK CH 15 : 44)
-
-so she expected to see a “ LIVE “ JESUS in PHYSICAL FORM.
dd)John 20 : 17…Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me...
- Mary Magdalene , instinctively would have moved forward and at same time touch or hold him...
- Can a Spiritualised body be touch or hold…??
With just these 3 verses I re-enact an event. There are other details in the
Gospel to support that Jesus did not die nor was he RESURRECTED. As I promised no references from the QurAn..!!
07A) We digress a bit...For argument sake...lets say Jesus was Resurrected....
Was He the ONLY ONE..??
Let’s go to Matthew 17:3 ( NIV)….
......................................
…there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus….
Matthew 27 :
.............
51….At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52…The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53….They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
07B) Enoch and Elijah went up to Heaven with THEIR PHYSICAL BODIES…..
…… (without passing through DEATH )
......
written by mimag2005, February 12, 2008 23:03:56
Hi Avanza,
I may have to take a respite in the coming days...
Don’t want you to think this sudden “ incommunicado “ as a sign of me “ raising the white flag “..
...while you busy SNIFFING at peoples garden....
I will present one of the Greatest Hoax in History....
Resurrection – One of Christianity’s “ Main Engine “
.....................................................
01)Paul said...if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.1 Cor15 :14 .
That means if Jesus did not die ( crucified on the cross) ..and....RESURRECTED ON THE THIRD DAY....!!..there will NOT BE .....A RELIGION CALLED CHRISTIANITY....!!!
02) For such a MAJOR EVENT/DOCTRINE ...THERE IS NO SUCH PROPHESY foretold in the Old Testament......SHOCKING.......!!!
03) WHY NO PROPHESY...???
04) Resurrection means....â€Â...becoming alive after being dead..!!...…â€Â
05) How does a Resurrected Body look like..?? …..
....Lets go to Luke Ch 20 : V 35/36..the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and THEY CAN NO LONGER DIE; for they are like the angels...
This means once a person has been resurrected.. his resurrected body will be like the angels..i.e. A SPIRITUALISED BODY...NOT A PHYSICAL BODY...and this spiritualised body will not die a second time...
Hebrews ch 9 : V 27...And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
THEREFORE A RESURRECTED BODY HAS CONQUERED DEATH...!!
06) IF Jesus was Crucified and Resurrected, as BELIEVED by the 1,800,000,000 Followers of Christianity, why did Jesus, with a RESURRECTED BODY..and HAVING CONQUERED DEATH.. acted strangely after the crucifixion…...??. e.g.
aa)...John 20: 15 (NIV)....thinking he was the gardener, she said... Sir, if you have carried HIM away, tell me where you have PUT HIM, and I WILL GET HIM."
-Why did Mary Magdalene thought he was a gardener...?
-Does Spiritualise body look like gardeners...?
-Why did Jesus disguised himself to look like a gardener...???... Jesus should know that a spiritualised body has conquered death..!!!
- What was Jesus worried or afraid of...???
bb) John 20: 15…. she said…. Sir, if you have carried HIM away, tell me where you have PUT HIM, and I WILL GET HIM."
-Do you call a corpse HIM or IT...???
-Do you carry a corpse and bury or ...carry a corpse and put...??
cc)John 20: 15….†and I WILL GET HIM."
-Do you CARRY a corpse or…you GET a corpse…?
-If a person is ALIVE you go and GET HIM or FETCH HIM…!!
-If Jesus body is a corpse..then Mary Magdalene must be having the strength of a “WONDER WOMAN “ to be able to carry Jesus’s STINKING CORPSE ( DEAD 3 DAYS)corpse all by herself...??
dd) John 20 : 16… Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).
-Upon recognizing his voice/tone, mary Magdalene happily cried out...?
-Why was Mary not afraid..? because she was a witness and knew Jesus did not die..as the ordeal he went through was too short a time to cause death....
-
-Even ...Pilate WAS SURPRISED to hear that he was already dead....
(MARK CH 15 : 44)
-
-so she expected to see a “ LIVE “ JESUS in PHYSICAL FORM.
dd)John 20 : 17…Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me...
- Mary Magdalene , instinctively would have moved forward and at same time touch or hold him...
- Can a Spiritualised body be touch or hold…??
With just these 3 verses I re-enact an event. There are other details in the
Gospel to support that Jesus did not die nor was he RESURRECTED. As I promised no references from the QurAn..!!
07A) We digress a bit...For argument sake...lets say Jesus was Resurrected....
Was He the ONLY ONE..??
Let’s go to Matthew 17:3 ( NIV)….
......................................
…there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus….
Matthew 27 :
.............
51….At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52…The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53….They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
07B) Enoch and Elijah went up to Heaven with THEIR PHYSICAL BODIES…..
…… (without passing through DEATH )
......
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...
written by Avanza1, February 12, 2008 16:21:01
written by Avanza1, February 12, 2008 16:21:01
# Will Allah disgrace Muslims? On the day of judgment Allah will not humiliate or disgrace the Prophet and those who believe in him [S. 66:8]. However, 19:71 says that everyone will enter Hell, and 3:192 states that whomsoever Allah sends to Hell, is disgraced thereby.
# Will Jesus burn in Hell? Jesus is raised to Allah, [Sura 4:158], near stationed with him [Sura 3:45], worshiped by millions of Christians, yet Sura 21:98 says, that all that are worshiped by men besides Allah will burn in Hell together with those who worship them.
# Is Jesus God or Not? In Sura 16:17, 20-21 and S. 25:3 we find a criterion to distinguish the true God from false gods. Yet, according to S. 3:49, 55, 4:157-158, 5:110, 6:2, and 38:71-72 Jesus satisfies the definition and should be considered true Deity.
# Is Jesus Like Adam? S. 3:59 makes this claim, but how many aspects of likeness are there really?
# Can there be a son without a consort? Allah cannot have a son without a consort [Sura 6:101], but Mary can have a son without a consort because that is easy for Allah [Sura 19:21].
# Who is the father of Jesus? A more involved argument that is difficult to summarize in one sentence.
# Begetting and Self-sufficiency A self-contradiction on account of confused terminology.
# Could Allah have a son? Sura 39:4 affirms and Sura 6:101 denies this possibility.
# Did Jesus Die already? Sura 3:144 states that all messengers died before Muhammad. But 4:158 claims that Jesus was raised to God (alive?).
# One Creator or many? The Qur'an uses twice the phrase that Allah is "the best of creators" [23:14, 37:125]. What other creators are in mind? On the other hand, many verses make clear that Allah alone is "the creator of all things" [e.g. 39:62]. There is nothing left for others to be a creator of.
# From among all nations or from Abraham's seed? Sura 29:27 states that all prophets came Abraham's seed. But 16:36 claims that Allah raised messengers from among every people.
# Marrying the wives of adopted sons? It is important that Muslims can marry the divorced wives of adopted sons [Sura 33:37], yet it is forbidden to adopt sons [Sura 33:4-5].
# Messengers were never sent to other than their own people? So it is claimed in Sura 14:4 and 30:47. However, the Bible and the Qur'an, and the Muslim traditions confirm that Jonah was sent to a different nation.
# Messengers Were Sent Only to Their Own People? Sura 14:4 states that never was a messenger sent except in the language of his own people. Yet, the Quran itself claims that Jesus is supposed to be a sign to all people, that the Torah and Gospel are for all people, that Moses was sent to Pharaoh of Egypt, and that Muhammad is sent to all of mankind. The hadith also claim that Noah was sent to "the inhabitants of the earth".
# Messengers Amongst the Jinns and Angels? Allah sent only men as messengers [Suras 12:109, 21:7-8, 25:20-21] but there seemingly are messengers from Jinns and Angels [6:130; 11:69,77; 22:75; etc., see article for details].
# Do all of God's messengers eat food?
# A Messenger from among the beasts? Allah sent only men as messengers [Suras 12:109, 21:7-8, 25:20-21]. Yet, the Qur'an also speaks about a beast that is a messenger from Allah to men [S. 27:82].
# Is Muhammad Only A Warner or a Prophet/Messenger?
# Did the Messengers Perform Miracles?
# Will Jesus burn in Hell? Jesus is raised to Allah, [Sura 4:158], near stationed with him [Sura 3:45], worshiped by millions of Christians, yet Sura 21:98 says, that all that are worshiped by men besides Allah will burn in Hell together with those who worship them.
# Is Jesus God or Not? In Sura 16:17, 20-21 and S. 25:3 we find a criterion to distinguish the true God from false gods. Yet, according to S. 3:49, 55, 4:157-158, 5:110, 6:2, and 38:71-72 Jesus satisfies the definition and should be considered true Deity.
# Is Jesus Like Adam? S. 3:59 makes this claim, but how many aspects of likeness are there really?
# Can there be a son without a consort? Allah cannot have a son without a consort [Sura 6:101], but Mary can have a son without a consort because that is easy for Allah [Sura 19:21].
# Who is the father of Jesus? A more involved argument that is difficult to summarize in one sentence.
# Begetting and Self-sufficiency A self-contradiction on account of confused terminology.
# Could Allah have a son? Sura 39:4 affirms and Sura 6:101 denies this possibility.
# Did Jesus Die already? Sura 3:144 states that all messengers died before Muhammad. But 4:158 claims that Jesus was raised to God (alive?).
# One Creator or many? The Qur'an uses twice the phrase that Allah is "the best of creators" [23:14, 37:125]. What other creators are in mind? On the other hand, many verses make clear that Allah alone is "the creator of all things" [e.g. 39:62]. There is nothing left for others to be a creator of.
# From among all nations or from Abraham's seed? Sura 29:27 states that all prophets came Abraham's seed. But 16:36 claims that Allah raised messengers from among every people.
# Marrying the wives of adopted sons? It is important that Muslims can marry the divorced wives of adopted sons [Sura 33:37], yet it is forbidden to adopt sons [Sura 33:4-5].
# Messengers were never sent to other than their own people? So it is claimed in Sura 14:4 and 30:47. However, the Bible and the Qur'an, and the Muslim traditions confirm that Jonah was sent to a different nation.
# Messengers Were Sent Only to Their Own People? Sura 14:4 states that never was a messenger sent except in the language of his own people. Yet, the Quran itself claims that Jesus is supposed to be a sign to all people, that the Torah and Gospel are for all people, that Moses was sent to Pharaoh of Egypt, and that Muhammad is sent to all of mankind. The hadith also claim that Noah was sent to "the inhabitants of the earth".
# Messengers Amongst the Jinns and Angels? Allah sent only men as messengers [Suras 12:109, 21:7-8, 25:20-21] but there seemingly are messengers from Jinns and Angels [6:130; 11:69,77; 22:75; etc., see article for details].
# Do all of God's messengers eat food?
# A Messenger from among the beasts? Allah sent only men as messengers [Suras 12:109, 21:7-8, 25:20-21]. Yet, the Qur'an also speaks about a beast that is a messenger from Allah to men [S. 27:82].
# Is Muhammad Only A Warner or a Prophet/Messenger?
# Did the Messengers Perform Miracles?
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written by Avanza1, February 12, 2008 16:19:05
written by Avanza1, February 12, 2008 16:19:05
# Will Christians enter Paradise or go to Hell? Sura 2:62 and 5:69 say "Yes", Sura 5:72 (just 3 verses later) and 3:85 say "No".
# God alone or also men? Clear or incomprehensible? The Qur'an is "clear Arabic speech." [16:103] Yet "NONE knows its interpretation, save only Allah." [3:7]. Actually, "men of understanding do grasp it." [3:7]
# Was Pharaoh Drowned or Saved when chasing Moses and the Israelites? Saved [10:92], drowned [28:40, 17:103, 43:55].
# When Commanded Pharaoh the Killing of the Sons? When Moses was a Prophet and spoke God's truth to Pharaoh [40:23-25] or when he was still an infant [20:38-39]?
# When/how are the fates determined? "The night of power is better than a thousand months. The angels and spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees." [97:3,4] "Lo! We revealed it on a blessed night." [44:3] To Muslims, the "Night of Power" is a blessed night on which fates are settled and on which everything relating to life, death, etc., which occurs throughout the year is decreed. It is said to be the night on which Allah's decrees for the year are brought down to the earthly plane. In other words, matters of creation are decreed a year at a time. Contradicting this, Sura 57:22 says, "No affliction befalls in the earth or in your selves, but it is in a Book before we create it." This means it is written in the Preserved Tablet, being totally fixed in Allah's knowledge before anyone was created. All of the above is contradicted by "And every man's fate We have fastened to his own neck." This says that man alone is responsible for what he does and what happens to him. [17:13]
# Wine: Good or bad? Strong drink and ... are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. [5:90, also 2:219]. Yet on the other hand in Paradise are rivers of wine [47:15, also 83:22,25]. How does Satan's handiwork get into Paradise?
# Good News of Painful Torture? Obviously, announcing torment and suffering to anyone is bad news, not good news. However, the Qur'an announces the good news of painful torment [3:21, 4:138, 9:3, 9:34, 31:7, 45:8, and 84:24].
# Jinns and men created for worship or for Hell? Created only to serve God [Sura 51:56], many of them made for Hell [Sura 7:179].
# Preferred for Hell? S. 17:70 says that Allah prefers (all) the children of Adam over many of his creatures, but S. 98:6 declares the majority of men to be the worst of creatures, many of them being even created specifically for Hell (S. 7:179).
# Will all Muslims go to Hell? According to Sura 19:71 every Muslim will go to Hell (for at least some time), while another passage states that those who die in Jihad will go to Paradise immediately.
# God alone or also men? Clear or incomprehensible? The Qur'an is "clear Arabic speech." [16:103] Yet "NONE knows its interpretation, save only Allah." [3:7]. Actually, "men of understanding do grasp it." [3:7]
# Was Pharaoh Drowned or Saved when chasing Moses and the Israelites? Saved [10:92], drowned [28:40, 17:103, 43:55].
# When Commanded Pharaoh the Killing of the Sons? When Moses was a Prophet and spoke God's truth to Pharaoh [40:23-25] or when he was still an infant [20:38-39]?
# When/how are the fates determined? "The night of power is better than a thousand months. The angels and spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees." [97:3,4] "Lo! We revealed it on a blessed night." [44:3] To Muslims, the "Night of Power" is a blessed night on which fates are settled and on which everything relating to life, death, etc., which occurs throughout the year is decreed. It is said to be the night on which Allah's decrees for the year are brought down to the earthly plane. In other words, matters of creation are decreed a year at a time. Contradicting this, Sura 57:22 says, "No affliction befalls in the earth or in your selves, but it is in a Book before we create it." This means it is written in the Preserved Tablet, being totally fixed in Allah's knowledge before anyone was created. All of the above is contradicted by "And every man's fate We have fastened to his own neck." This says that man alone is responsible for what he does and what happens to him. [17:13]
# Wine: Good or bad? Strong drink and ... are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. [5:90, also 2:219]. Yet on the other hand in Paradise are rivers of wine [47:15, also 83:22,25]. How does Satan's handiwork get into Paradise?
# Good News of Painful Torture? Obviously, announcing torment and suffering to anyone is bad news, not good news. However, the Qur'an announces the good news of painful torment [3:21, 4:138, 9:3, 9:34, 31:7, 45:8, and 84:24].
# Jinns and men created for worship or for Hell? Created only to serve God [Sura 51:56], many of them made for Hell [Sura 7:179].
# Preferred for Hell? S. 17:70 says that Allah prefers (all) the children of Adam over many of his creatures, but S. 98:6 declares the majority of men to be the worst of creatures, many of them being even created specifically for Hell (S. 7:179).
# Will all Muslims go to Hell? According to Sura 19:71 every Muslim will go to Hell (for at least some time), while another passage states that those who die in Jihad will go to Paradise immediately.
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written by Avanza1, February 12, 2008 16:17:08
written by Avanza1, February 12, 2008 16:17:08
# Did Abraham smash the idols? The accounts of Abraham, Suras 19:41-49, 6:74-83 differ quite a bit from Sura 21:51-59. While in Sura 21 Abraham confronts his people strongly, and even destroys the idols, in Sura 19 Abraham shuts up after his father threatens him to stone him for speaking out against the idols. And he seems not only to become silent, but even to leave the area ("turning away from them all").
# What about Noah's son? According to Sura 21:76, Noah and his family is saved from the flood, and Sura 37:77 confirms that his seed survived. But Sura 11:42-43 reports that Noah's son drowns.
# Was Noah driven out? "Before them *the people of Noah* rejected (their messenger): They rejected Our servant and said, 'Here is One possessed!' And he was driven out." [Sura 54:9] Now, if he is driven out [expelled from their country] how come they can scoff at him while he is building the ark since we read "Forthwith he (starts) constructing the Ark: Every time that the Chiefs of *his people* passed by him, they threw ridicule on him." [Sura 11:38] He cannot be both: Driven out and near enough that they can regularly pass by.
# Pharaoh's Magicians: Muslims or Rejectors of Faith? Did the Magicians of Pharaoh, Egyptians, become believers in the God of Moses [7:103-126; 20:56-73; S. 26:29-51] or did only Israelites believe in Moses [10:83]?
# Pharaoh's repentance in the face of death? According to Sura 10:90-92, Pharaoh repented "in the sight of death" and was saved. But Sura 4:18 says that such a thing can't happen.
# Abrogation? "The words of the Lord are perfect in truth and justice; there is NONE who can change His words." [Sura 6:115] Also see 6:34 and 10:64. But then Allah (Muhammad?) sees the need to exchange some of them for "better ones" [Sura 2:106, 16:101]. And it is not for ignorant people to question Allah because of such practices!
# Guiding to truth? "Say: 'God - He guides to the truth; and which is worthier to be followed ...?" [Sura 10:35] But how much is left over of this worthiness when we also read: "Allah leads astray whom he pleases, and he guides whom He pleases, ..." [Sura 14:4]. And how do we know in which of Allah's categories of pleasure we fall? How sure can a Muslim be that he is one of those guided right and not one of those led astray?
# What is the punishment for adultery? Flogging with a 100 stripes (men and women) [24:2], "confine them to houses until death do claim them (lifelong house arrest - for the women) [4:15]. For men: "If they repent and amend, leave them alone" [4:16]. 24:2 contradicts both the procedure for women and men in Sura 4. And why is the punishment for women and men equal in Sura 24 but different in Sura 4?
# How are the sexually immoral supposed to be punished?
# Who suffers the consequence of sins? The Qur'an declares that everyone will be held responsible only for his own sins [S. 17:13-15, 53:38-42]. Yet, the Qur'an accuses the Jews of Muhammad's day for the sins committed some 2000 years earlier by other Jews, e.g. worshipping the Golden Calf idol.
# What about Noah's son? According to Sura 21:76, Noah and his family is saved from the flood, and Sura 37:77 confirms that his seed survived. But Sura 11:42-43 reports that Noah's son drowns.
# Was Noah driven out? "Before them *the people of Noah* rejected (their messenger): They rejected Our servant and said, 'Here is One possessed!' And he was driven out." [Sura 54:9] Now, if he is driven out [expelled from their country] how come they can scoff at him while he is building the ark since we read "Forthwith he (starts) constructing the Ark: Every time that the Chiefs of *his people* passed by him, they threw ridicule on him." [Sura 11:38] He cannot be both: Driven out and near enough that they can regularly pass by.
# Pharaoh's Magicians: Muslims or Rejectors of Faith? Did the Magicians of Pharaoh, Egyptians, become believers in the God of Moses [7:103-126; 20:56-73; S. 26:29-51] or did only Israelites believe in Moses [10:83]?
# Pharaoh's repentance in the face of death? According to Sura 10:90-92, Pharaoh repented "in the sight of death" and was saved. But Sura 4:18 says that such a thing can't happen.
# Abrogation? "The words of the Lord are perfect in truth and justice; there is NONE who can change His words." [Sura 6:115] Also see 6:34 and 10:64. But then Allah (Muhammad?) sees the need to exchange some of them for "better ones" [Sura 2:106, 16:101]. And it is not for ignorant people to question Allah because of such practices!
# Guiding to truth? "Say: 'God - He guides to the truth; and which is worthier to be followed ...?" [Sura 10:35] But how much is left over of this worthiness when we also read: "Allah leads astray whom he pleases, and he guides whom He pleases, ..." [Sura 14:4]. And how do we know in which of Allah's categories of pleasure we fall? How sure can a Muslim be that he is one of those guided right and not one of those led astray?
# What is the punishment for adultery? Flogging with a 100 stripes (men and women) [24:2], "confine them to houses until death do claim them (lifelong house arrest - for the women) [4:15]. For men: "If they repent and amend, leave them alone" [4:16]. 24:2 contradicts both the procedure for women and men in Sura 4. And why is the punishment for women and men equal in Sura 24 but different in Sura 4?
# How are the sexually immoral supposed to be punished?
# Who suffers the consequence of sins? The Qur'an declares that everyone will be held responsible only for his own sins [S. 17:13-15, 53:38-42]. Yet, the Qur'an accuses the Jews of Muhammad's day for the sins committed some 2000 years earlier by other Jews, e.g. worshipping the Golden Calf idol.
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written by Avanza1, February 12, 2008 16:16:11
written by Avanza1, February 12, 2008 16:16:11
# How many wings does an angel have? Angels have 2, 3, or 4 wings [35:1]; but Gabriel had 600 wings according to Sahih al-Bukhari.
# Is Satan an angel or a jinn?
# Three contradictions in 2:97 and 16:101-103 Who brings the revelation from Allah to Muhammad? The ANGEL Gabriel [2:97], or the Holy Spirit [16:102]? The new revelation confirms the old [2:97] or substitutes it [16:101]? The Qur'an is PURE Arabic [16:103] but there are numerous foreign, non-Arabic words in it.
# Do not say, "Three"!? It is impossible to recite Sura 4:171 without transgressing the command contained in it.
# The infinite loop problem Sura 26:192,195,196: "It (the Qur'an) is indeed a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds, ... in clear Arabic speech and indeed IT (the Qur'an) is in the writings of the earlier (prophets)." Now, the 'earlier writings' are the Torah and the Injil for example, written in Hebrew and Greek. HOW can an ARABIC Qur'an be contained in books of other languages? Furthermore, it would have to contain this very passage of the Qur'an since the Qur'an is properly contained in them. Hence these earlier writings have to be contained in yet other earlier writings and we are in an infinite loop, which is absurd.
# Is the Torah like the Qur'an, or is it not? The Muslim claim of the corruption of the Bible leads to a contradiction between S. 2:24 and 17:88 on the one hand, and 28:49 and 46:10 on the other.
# Should Jews and Christians follow the Bible or the Quran?
# "An old woman" and God's character About the story of Lot: "So we delivered him and his family, - all exept an old woman who lingered behind." [Sura 26:170-171] And again: "But we saved him and his family, exept his wife: she was of those who lagged behind. [Sura 7:83]. Either this is a contradiction or if indeed Lot's wife is derogatorily called "an old woman" then this does not show much respect for her as a wife of a prophet.
# More problems with the story of Lot "And his people gave NO answer but this: They said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" [Sura 7:82 & 27:56]. Yet: "But his people gave NO answer but this: They said: "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth." [Sura 29:29]. Obviously these answers are different.
# The "pleasure" of Allah? Is God's action of punishment or mercy and guidance or misguidance arbitrary?
# Is Satan an angel or a jinn?
# Three contradictions in 2:97 and 16:101-103 Who brings the revelation from Allah to Muhammad? The ANGEL Gabriel [2:97], or the Holy Spirit [16:102]? The new revelation confirms the old [2:97] or substitutes it [16:101]? The Qur'an is PURE Arabic [16:103] but there are numerous foreign, non-Arabic words in it.
# Do not say, "Three"!? It is impossible to recite Sura 4:171 without transgressing the command contained in it.
# The infinite loop problem Sura 26:192,195,196: "It (the Qur'an) is indeed a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds, ... in clear Arabic speech and indeed IT (the Qur'an) is in the writings of the earlier (prophets)." Now, the 'earlier writings' are the Torah and the Injil for example, written in Hebrew and Greek. HOW can an ARABIC Qur'an be contained in books of other languages? Furthermore, it would have to contain this very passage of the Qur'an since the Qur'an is properly contained in them. Hence these earlier writings have to be contained in yet other earlier writings and we are in an infinite loop, which is absurd.
# Is the Torah like the Qur'an, or is it not? The Muslim claim of the corruption of the Bible leads to a contradiction between S. 2:24 and 17:88 on the one hand, and 28:49 and 46:10 on the other.
# Should Jews and Christians follow the Bible or the Quran?
# "An old woman" and God's character About the story of Lot: "So we delivered him and his family, - all exept an old woman who lingered behind." [Sura 26:170-171] And again: "But we saved him and his family, exept his wife: she was of those who lagged behind. [Sura 7:83]. Either this is a contradiction or if indeed Lot's wife is derogatorily called "an old woman" then this does not show much respect for her as a wife of a prophet.
# More problems with the story of Lot "And his people gave NO answer but this: They said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" [Sura 7:82 & 27:56]. Yet: "But his people gave NO answer but this: They said: "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth." [Sura 29:29]. Obviously these answers are different.
# The "pleasure" of Allah? Is God's action of punishment or mercy and guidance or misguidance arbitrary?
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written by Avanza1, February 12, 2008 16:14:46
written by Avanza1, February 12, 2008 16:14:46
# Does Allah Act Alone Or Does He Have Partners That Assist Him?
# Is Allah the Only Judge or Not?
# Are all obedient and prostrating to Allah? That is the claim in 16:49 and 30:26, but dozens of verses speak of the proud disobedience of Satan [7:11, 15:28-31, 17:61, 20:116, 38:71-74, 18:50] as well of many different human beings who reject His commands and His revelations.
# Does Allah forgive shirk? Shirk is considered the worst of all sins, but the author of the Qur'an seems unable to decide if Allah will ever forgive it or not. No [4:48, 116], Yes [4:153, 25:68-71]. Abraham committed this sin of polytheism as he takes moon, sun, stars to be his Lord [6:76-78], yet Muslims believe that all prophets are without any sin.
# The event of worship of the golden calf: The Israelites repented about worshipping the golden calf BEFORE Moses returned from the mountain [7:149], yet they refused to repent but rather continued to worship the calf until Moses came back [20:91]. Does Aaron share in their guilt? No [20:85-90], yes [20:92, 7:151].
# Was Jonah cast on the desert shore or was he not? "Then We cast him on a desert shore while he was sick" [37:145] "Had not Grace from his Lord reached him, he would indeed have been cast off on the naked shore while he was reprobate." [68:49]
# Moses and the Injil? Jesus is born more than 1,000 years after Moses, but in 7:157 Allah speaks to Moses about what is written in the Injil [the book given to Jesus].
# Can slander of chaste women be forgiven? Yes [24:5], No [24:23].
# How do we receive the record on Judgment Day? On Judgement day the lost people are given the Record (of their bad deeds): Behind their back [84:10], or in their left hand [69:25].
# Can angels disobey? No angel is arrogant, they all obey Allah [16:49-50], but: "And behold, we said to the ANGELS: 'Bow down to Adam'. And THEY bowed down, EXCEPT Iblis. He refused and was haughty." [2:34]. This article includes links to answers to four Muslim responses.
# Is Allah the Only Judge or Not?
# Are all obedient and prostrating to Allah? That is the claim in 16:49 and 30:26, but dozens of verses speak of the proud disobedience of Satan [7:11, 15:28-31, 17:61, 20:116, 38:71-74, 18:50] as well of many different human beings who reject His commands and His revelations.
# Does Allah forgive shirk? Shirk is considered the worst of all sins, but the author of the Qur'an seems unable to decide if Allah will ever forgive it or not. No [4:48, 116], Yes [4:153, 25:68-71]. Abraham committed this sin of polytheism as he takes moon, sun, stars to be his Lord [6:76-78], yet Muslims believe that all prophets are without any sin.
# The event of worship of the golden calf: The Israelites repented about worshipping the golden calf BEFORE Moses returned from the mountain [7:149], yet they refused to repent but rather continued to worship the calf until Moses came back [20:91]. Does Aaron share in their guilt? No [20:85-90], yes [20:92, 7:151].
# Was Jonah cast on the desert shore or was he not? "Then We cast him on a desert shore while he was sick" [37:145] "Had not Grace from his Lord reached him, he would indeed have been cast off on the naked shore while he was reprobate." [68:49]
# Moses and the Injil? Jesus is born more than 1,000 years after Moses, but in 7:157 Allah speaks to Moses about what is written in the Injil [the book given to Jesus].
# Can slander of chaste women be forgiven? Yes [24:5], No [24:23].
# How do we receive the record on Judgment Day? On Judgement day the lost people are given the Record (of their bad deeds): Behind their back [84:10], or in their left hand [69:25].
# Can angels disobey? No angel is arrogant, they all obey Allah [16:49-50], but: "And behold, we said to the ANGELS: 'Bow down to Adam'. And THEY bowed down, EXCEPT Iblis. He refused and was haughty." [2:34]. This article includes links to answers to four Muslim responses.
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written by mimag2005, February 12, 2008 14:57:01
Hi Avanza,
HOLY BIBLE SAY.....EARTH IS STATIONARY
...........................................
Psalms Ch 104 V5
................
He set the earth on its foundations; IT CAN NEVER BE MOVED..!!!. (NIV)
QurAn Say...21:33...
....................
"...It is He who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its orbit with its own motion..."
.......
written by mimag2005, February 12, 2008 14:57:01
Hi Avanza,
HOLY BIBLE SAY.....EARTH IS STATIONARY
...........................................
Psalms Ch 104 V5
................
He set the earth on its foundations; IT CAN NEVER BE MOVED..!!!. (NIV)
QurAn Say...21:33...
....................
"...It is He who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its orbit with its own motion..."
.......
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written by mimag2005, February 12, 2008 11:06:31
Hey Avanza,
What say you....we catch the “ DEVIL “ by the neck....?
I have read your earlier posts and noted for your queries on the Quran, you were given one of the best treatment from the muslim’s corner especially from panca indera i.e. tolerated, accommodated and oblidged with positive responses....
Well..... I m not panca indera....!!!
When I detect devious motives...no free lunch.. not even a grain...!!
So...after the debate on Resurrection...I will provide answers to one of your queries concerning the Qur An...!!
...ditto ditto....
Deal..?
.......
written by mimag2005, February 12, 2008 11:06:31
Hey Avanza,
What say you....we catch the “ DEVIL “ by the neck....?
I have read your earlier posts and noted for your queries on the Quran, you were given one of the best treatment from the muslim’s corner especially from panca indera i.e. tolerated, accommodated and oblidged with positive responses....
Well..... I m not panca indera....!!!
When I detect devious motives...no free lunch.. not even a grain...!!
So...after the debate on Resurrection...I will provide answers to one of your queries concerning the Qur An...!!
...ditto ditto....
Deal..?
.......
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written by mimag2005, February 11, 2008 19:05:55
Dear Panca Indera,
You are right...!
written by Avanza1, February 12, 2008 | 02:22:27
mimag2005, Just wonder if u did check out the info. If you are not bold enough to just read the info there then you can take the eggs from your fridge and it for yrself to eat. Up to u. Just like what Panca said, some pp, r just bend on stubborn.
..........................................................................
Hi Avanza,
Im heading to sepang to “ burn “ rubber.....
Estalavista..!!
..........
written by mimag2005, February 11, 2008 19:05:55
Dear Panca Indera,
You are right...!
written by Avanza1, February 12, 2008 | 02:22:27
mimag2005, Just wonder if u did check out the info. If you are not bold enough to just read the info there then you can take the eggs from your fridge and it for yrself to eat. Up to u. Just like what Panca said, some pp, r just bend on stubborn.
..........................................................................
Hi Avanza,
Im heading to sepang to “ burn “ rubber.....
Estalavista..!!
..........
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written by Avanza1, February 11, 2008 18:22:27
written by Avanza1, February 11, 2008 18:22:27
mimag2005, Just wonder if u did check out the info. If you are not bold enough to just read the info there then you can take the eggs from your fridge and it for yrself to eat. Up to u. Just like what Panca said, some pp, r just bend on stubborn.
**http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c017.html
*******
086.005
YUSUFALI: Now let man but think from what he is created!
PICKTHAL: So let man consider from what he is created.
SHAKIR: So let man consider of what he is created:
At Tariq :So let man consider from what he is created.
086.006
YUSUFALI: He is created from a drop emitted-
PICKTHAL: He is created from a gushing fluid
SHAKIR: He is created of water pouring forth,
At Tariq :He is created from a GUSHING FLUID
086.007
YUSUFALI: Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:
PICKTHAL: That issued from between the loins and ribs.
SHAKIR: Coming from between the back and the ribs.
At Tariq :That ISSUED FROM BETWEEN THE LOINS AND RIBS.
086.008
YUSUFALI: Surely (Allah) is able to bring him back (to life)!
PICKTHAL: Lo! He verily is Able to return him (unto life)
SHAKIR: Most surely He is able to return him (to life).
At Tariq :
Not sure how u understand yr Quran. It is saying u r created from liquid gushing out from that part between the (bone or loins) and ribs. Quran specifically said u r made from this 95-98% fluid consists of fructose, prostaglandin hormones, metal and salt ions, lipids, steroid hormones, enzymes, basic amines, and amino acids(full stop). That is you. Why God would educate His ppl with this 'inaccurate miracle scientific truth'? Can't He continue to mention the vital organ that produce sperm? Are the Arabs so unaware how to make babies?
Fact is the knowledge was learned from the Greeks.
**http://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/islamic_medical/islamic_03.html
**http://debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html
Quote from Wikipedia "Semen quality is a measure of the ability of semen to accomplish fertilisation. Thus, it is a measure of fertility in a man. It is the sperm in the semen that are of importance, and therefore semen quality involves both sperm quantity and sperm quality."
**http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c017.html
*******
086.005
YUSUFALI: Now let man but think from what he is created!
PICKTHAL: So let man consider from what he is created.
SHAKIR: So let man consider of what he is created:
At Tariq :So let man consider from what he is created.
086.006
YUSUFALI: He is created from a drop emitted-
PICKTHAL: He is created from a gushing fluid
SHAKIR: He is created of water pouring forth,
At Tariq :He is created from a GUSHING FLUID
086.007
YUSUFALI: Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:
PICKTHAL: That issued from between the loins and ribs.
SHAKIR: Coming from between the back and the ribs.
At Tariq :That ISSUED FROM BETWEEN THE LOINS AND RIBS.
086.008
YUSUFALI: Surely (Allah) is able to bring him back (to life)!
PICKTHAL: Lo! He verily is Able to return him (unto life)
SHAKIR: Most surely He is able to return him (to life).
At Tariq :
Not sure how u understand yr Quran. It is saying u r created from liquid gushing out from that part between the (bone or loins) and ribs. Quran specifically said u r made from this 95-98% fluid consists of fructose, prostaglandin hormones, metal and salt ions, lipids, steroid hormones, enzymes, basic amines, and amino acids(full stop). That is you. Why God would educate His ppl with this 'inaccurate miracle scientific truth'? Can't He continue to mention the vital organ that produce sperm? Are the Arabs so unaware how to make babies?
Fact is the knowledge was learned from the Greeks.
**http://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/islamic_medical/islamic_03.html
**http://debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html
Quote from Wikipedia "Semen quality is a measure of the ability of semen to accomplish fertilisation. Thus, it is a measure of fertility in a man. It is the sperm in the semen that are of importance, and therefore semen quality involves both sperm quantity and sperm quality."
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written by mimag2005, February 11, 2008 17:45:30
01) written by Avanza1, February 12, 2008 | 00:56:46
minag2005 you are good at debating. Admire yr energy
....................................................
All is HIS.....NOTHING IS MINE... EVEN NOTHING and MINE IS HIS.... !!!
02) written by Avanza1, February 12, 2008 | 00:58:42
I hv made a reply to yr energetic post but it under review by the admin.
.......................................................
You mean you have given complete replies on the Bible’s
- prophesy on the third day resurrection as in OT,...?
- creation of the world....?
- Creation of mankind…i.e. more detail,more accurate than QurAn Ch 86 V 5-7....?
- Moon giving out its own light...?
- Plagiarism in 2 Kings Ch 19 and Isaiah Ch 37...?
- Contradictions in Creation as in Genesis...etc...??
Also have you provided PROOFS to back up your allegations made to the Qur An on 6th Feb....???
I told you...we have many unfinished biz with the Bible...
So....Im engaging you in your home ground.
YOU MUST BE THANKFUL IM GIVING YOU A GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY TO PROOVE THAT THE ....
......." BIBLE IS THE “WORD OF GOD ".....
............
written by mimag2005, February 11, 2008 17:45:30
01) written by Avanza1, February 12, 2008 | 00:56:46
minag2005 you are good at debating. Admire yr energy
....................................................
All is HIS.....NOTHING IS MINE... EVEN NOTHING and MINE IS HIS.... !!!
02) written by Avanza1, February 12, 2008 | 00:58:42
I hv made a reply to yr energetic post but it under review by the admin.
.......................................................
You mean you have given complete replies on the Bible’s
- prophesy on the third day resurrection as in OT,...?
- creation of the world....?
- Creation of mankind…i.e. more detail,more accurate than QurAn Ch 86 V 5-7....?
- Moon giving out its own light...?
- Plagiarism in 2 Kings Ch 19 and Isaiah Ch 37...?
- Contradictions in Creation as in Genesis...etc...??
Also have you provided PROOFS to back up your allegations made to the Qur An on 6th Feb....???
I told you...we have many unfinished biz with the Bible...
So....Im engaging you in your home ground.
YOU MUST BE THANKFUL IM GIVING YOU A GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY TO PROOVE THAT THE ....
......." BIBLE IS THE “WORD OF GOD ".....
............
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written by Avanza1, February 11, 2008 17:03:12
written by Avanza1, February 11, 2008 17:03:12
meantime i will pray for you, panca n RH. Peace, salam, shalom.
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written by Avanza1, February 11, 2008 16:58:42
written by Avanza1, February 11, 2008 16:58:42
I hv made a reply to yr energetic post but it under review by the admin.
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written by Avanza1, February 11, 2008 16:56:46
written by Avanza1, February 11, 2008 16:56:46
minag2005 you are good at debating. Admire yr energy. Panca had share his view on on of the quran contradictions. I in return shared with you on the 4 corners. Hope u do read the URL. Open to yr views on other quranic contradictions posted.
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written by mimag2005, February 11, 2008 13:59:48
..." The devil hath power, To assume a pleasing shape.
... Conceit in weakest bodies strongest works
... We know what we are, but know not what we may be
... Yet still we hug the dear deceit
... Rest, rest, perturbed spirit....
... Confess yourself to heaven;
... Repent what’s past; avoid whats to come..."
...." I must be cruel, only to be kind..."
.........
written by mimag2005, February 11, 2008 13:59:48
..." The devil hath power, To assume a pleasing shape.
... Conceit in weakest bodies strongest works
... We know what we are, but know not what we may be
... Yet still we hug the dear deceit
... Rest, rest, perturbed spirit....
... Confess yourself to heaven;
... Repent what’s past; avoid whats to come..."
...." I must be cruel, only to be kind..."
.........
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written by mimag2005, February 10, 2008 15:54:32
Peace unto you, Panca Indera
written by Panca Indera, February 10, 2008 | 23:00:26
SALAM
Mimag2005,
Genuinely I think he is a nice guy, just a bit viscous in his thinking!
.......................................................................
Hope you are right...I love serenity...
...sambil memanjat pohon menyembur rimba...
Peace..!!
.....
written by mimag2005, February 10, 2008 15:54:32
Peace unto you, Panca Indera
written by Panca Indera, February 10, 2008 | 23:00:26
SALAM
Mimag2005,
Genuinely I think he is a nice guy, just a bit viscous in his thinking!
.......................................................................
Hope you are right...I love serenity...
...sambil memanjat pohon menyembur rimba...
Peace..!!
.....
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written by Panca Indera, February 10, 2008 15:00:26
written by Panca Indera, February 10, 2008 15:00:26
SALAM
Mimag2005,
Easy doe it,
Save your energy for the bigger challenges ahead.
Why continue to debate when the opposition purpose is only to rile and confuse others by weak arguments and miniscule points. I know you can debate very well, but you cannot change people’s opinion if they refused to corporate even after knowing that their points were weak. This refusal to change is a kind of rebellion, similar to Lucifer himself. EGO is a big thing in man and jinn.
Look at Lucifer(Iblis). He rather go to hell than admit his error.
I have already forfeited my rights and not debate with him.
Genuinely I think he is a nice guy, just a bit viscous in his thinking!
Mimag2005,
Easy doe it,
Save your energy for the bigger challenges ahead.
Why continue to debate when the opposition purpose is only to rile and confuse others by weak arguments and miniscule points. I know you can debate very well, but you cannot change people’s opinion if they refused to corporate even after knowing that their points were weak. This refusal to change is a kind of rebellion, similar to Lucifer himself. EGO is a big thing in man and jinn.
Look at Lucifer(Iblis). He rather go to hell than admit his error.
I have already forfeited my rights and not debate with him.
Genuinely I think he is a nice guy, just a bit viscous in his thinking!
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written by mimag2005, February 10, 2008 12:19:46
Hi Avanza,
01)..SUNDAY MASS
Im sure like a good Christian, you attended today’s Sunday Mass.
Did you pose questions to your Fathers aka Priests aka Pastors.. and so on….
About the Prophesy(ies) of JESUS RESURRECTION on the THIRD DAY in the Old Testament and…
About “ TRINITY “… i provided early this morning…
Out of the many pages, I shall quote flwg para which Im sure you and others will be interested..
written by mimag2005, February 10, 2008 | 05:00:54
TRINITY - THE FALSEHOOD EXPOSED
.................................
.B) Fabrication -- 1 John 5:7 :-
"The text about the three heavenly witnesses (I John 5:7 KJV) is not an authentic part of the NT." [The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. 4, p.711, Abingdon Press.]
"1 John 5:7 in the KJV reads: 'There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one'.... but this is an interpolation of which there is no trace before the late fourth century." [The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. 4, p. 871, Abingdon Press.]
The above two verses are interpolations into the text of the NT and despite the fact that this is well known and admitted by the over whelming majority of NT scholars,...
...MANY CHRISTIANS ARE STILL PROGRAMMED INTO BELIEVING THAT THE ABOVE TWO FABRICATIONS ARE AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE BIBLE INSPIRED BY THE HOLY GHOST...!!
…What were the reactions of YOUR FATHERS.. aka PRIESTS.. aka PASTORS.. etc…??
...Did they give straight forward answers like... " NO SUCH PROPHESY ONJESUS RESURRECTION " on the THIRD DAY in the Old Testament...and...
...YES CORRECT I JOHN CH 5 :7 WAS AN INTERPOLATION (ADDITION)...AND NOT INSPIRED BY THE HOLY GHOST....OR
... they gave roundabout answers...OR..
.... told you to shut the bible, shut the eyes, cover the ears, ..just believe.. quoting Jesus..†Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe “...OR...
...this is the MYSTERY...JUST BELIEVE AND YOU WILL BE SAVE..!!!....OR
...Give a bewildered stare...OR.....
...worst still BECOME IRRITATED...!!!
Mmmm… speaking about FATHERS…… heres some “ Kong Hi Fatt Choy “ from Jesus
Mark Ch 10 : 18
.......
Why callest thou me GOOD? There is NONE GOOD BUT ONE…. THAT IS GOD...!!
MATT CH 23 : 9
................
.. do not call ANYONE ON EARTH ‘ FATHER ‘, for you have ONE FATHER , AND HE IS IN HEAVEN……..
..Jesus is saying in PLAIN LANGUAGE… he is not even fit to be called GOOD..yet...
Christians, suppose to be Jesus LOYAL Followers.......yet openly defy and disobey Jesus commands by calling him.....GOD...!!!
What did Paul, YOUR LEADER and the Founder of Pauline Christianity taught....
...I BECAME YOUR FATHER.....1COR CH 4 : 15.....
Sooo...now you know why Christians have thousands and thousands of..FATHERS..!!!
............
written by mimag2005, February 10, 2008 12:19:46
Hi Avanza,
01)..SUNDAY MASS
Im sure like a good Christian, you attended today’s Sunday Mass.
Did you pose questions to your Fathers aka Priests aka Pastors.. and so on….
About the Prophesy(ies) of JESUS RESURRECTION on the THIRD DAY in the Old Testament and…
About “ TRINITY “… i provided early this morning…
Out of the many pages, I shall quote flwg para which Im sure you and others will be interested..
written by mimag2005, February 10, 2008 | 05:00:54
TRINITY - THE FALSEHOOD EXPOSED
.................................
.B) Fabrication -- 1 John 5:7 :-
"The text about the three heavenly witnesses (I John 5:7 KJV) is not an authentic part of the NT." [The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. 4, p.711, Abingdon Press.]
"1 John 5:7 in the KJV reads: 'There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one'.... but this is an interpolation of which there is no trace before the late fourth century." [The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. 4, p. 871, Abingdon Press.]
The above two verses are interpolations into the text of the NT and despite the fact that this is well known and admitted by the over whelming majority of NT scholars,...
...MANY CHRISTIANS ARE STILL PROGRAMMED INTO BELIEVING THAT THE ABOVE TWO FABRICATIONS ARE AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE BIBLE INSPIRED BY THE HOLY GHOST...!!
…What were the reactions of YOUR FATHERS.. aka PRIESTS.. aka PASTORS.. etc…??
...Did they give straight forward answers like... " NO SUCH PROPHESY ONJESUS RESURRECTION " on the THIRD DAY in the Old Testament...and...
...YES CORRECT I JOHN CH 5 :7 WAS AN INTERPOLATION (ADDITION)...AND NOT INSPIRED BY THE HOLY GHOST....OR
... they gave roundabout answers...OR..
.... told you to shut the bible, shut the eyes, cover the ears, ..just believe.. quoting Jesus..†Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe “...OR...
...this is the MYSTERY...JUST BELIEVE AND YOU WILL BE SAVE..!!!....OR
...Give a bewildered stare...OR.....
...worst still BECOME IRRITATED...!!!
Mmmm… speaking about FATHERS…… heres some “ Kong Hi Fatt Choy “ from Jesus
Mark Ch 10 : 18
.......
Why callest thou me GOOD? There is NONE GOOD BUT ONE…. THAT IS GOD...!!
MATT CH 23 : 9
................
.. do not call ANYONE ON EARTH ‘ FATHER ‘, for you have ONE FATHER , AND HE IS IN HEAVEN……..
..Jesus is saying in PLAIN LANGUAGE… he is not even fit to be called GOOD..yet...
Christians, suppose to be Jesus LOYAL Followers.......yet openly defy and disobey Jesus commands by calling him.....GOD...!!!
What did Paul, YOUR LEADER and the Founder of Pauline Christianity taught....
...I BECAME YOUR FATHER.....1COR CH 4 : 15.....
Sooo...now you know why Christians have thousands and thousands of..FATHERS..!!!
............
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written by mimag2005, February 10, 2008 08:46:36
Hi Avanza1,
written by Avanza1, February 10, 2008 | 04:50:01
>>written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 | 05:21:20
Hi Avanza,
written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 | 22:47:4
If you read it in English there is no indication or mention the world is flat.
........................
If theres vacuum between the ears...no need to advertise...!!!
Which Cikgu taught you sphere got 4 corners....????
**http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c017.html
the four corners of the earth every part of the world.
............................................................
Avanza...Avanza....
You really, really amaze me...!!! I am flabbergasted..!!!!
Why are you trying so...so...hard...to confirm the “ vacuum “ mentioned above..!!
ONE of the GREATEST CRIME A MAN CAN COMMIT IS...COMMITTING A CRIME UPON HIMSELF..!!!
ISLAM will condemn me a cruel sadist and send me to HELL... if I ask you to pluck your rambutan...sigh...
NOW..! go to the kitchen..open the fridge door..takeout an egg..I mean chicken egg... NOT JURASSIC EGG..!!..hold it in your left hand..GENTLE.!!! don’t you know it is FRAGILE.!!...
..straighten your right hand index finger...point to the 4 CORNERS OF THE EGG...
...GOT IT..!!!.....CONGRATULATIONS...CLEVER BOY...!!!!
Hey Panca Indera / Rohani... I m having a party... come over...!!
.....
written by mimag2005, February 10, 2008 08:46:36
Hi Avanza1,
written by Avanza1, February 10, 2008 | 04:50:01
>>written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 | 05:21:20
Hi Avanza,
written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 | 22:47:4
If you read it in English there is no indication or mention the world is flat.
........................
If theres vacuum between the ears...no need to advertise...!!!
Which Cikgu taught you sphere got 4 corners....????
**http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c017.html
the four corners of the earth every part of the world.
............................................................
Avanza...Avanza....
You really, really amaze me...!!! I am flabbergasted..!!!!
Why are you trying so...so...hard...to confirm the “ vacuum “ mentioned above..!!
ONE of the GREATEST CRIME A MAN CAN COMMIT IS...COMMITTING A CRIME UPON HIMSELF..!!!
ISLAM will condemn me a cruel sadist and send me to HELL... if I ask you to pluck your rambutan...sigh...
NOW..! go to the kitchen..open the fridge door..takeout an egg..I mean chicken egg... NOT JURASSIC EGG..!!..hold it in your left hand..GENTLE.!!! don’t you know it is FRAGILE.!!...
..straighten your right hand index finger...point to the 4 CORNERS OF THE EGG...
...GOT IT..!!!.....CONGRATULATIONS...CLEVER BOY...!!!!
Hey Panca Indera / Rohani... I m having a party... come over...!!
.....
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-
-
...
written by mimag2005, February 10, 2008 07:38:21
written by Avanza1, February 10, 2008 | 04:50:01
.. So we are CREATED from 2-5% and not 07-98% of it....
...........................................................
Avanza...!!
TRYING TO DO ANOTHER SPIN...???
Lets go back to the starting point...
01A) written by Avanza1, February 06, 2008 | 01:20:37
All the scientific miracles are copied from prior/same period of civilization. It is shameful to claim it as Quranic scientific miracles. Either Allah in quran not the creator of man or faulty scientific observation were copied over wholely
Following verse speaks of what human ORGAN PRODUCES semen/human sperm. Is Allah some kind of alien been?
086.005 So let man consider from what he is created.
086.006 He is created from a GUSHING FLUID
086.007 That ISSUED FROM BETWEEN THE LOINS AND RIBS.
01B) Avanza 2ND HOSTILE entrance
written by Avanza1, February 06, 2008 | 01:39:14
If the muslims show sura 86.005-007, they will laugh their heads off and would agree something is not in place about the quran. Guys please be aware, they are not showing all about quran. There are…..
02A) My response to Avanza HOSTILE ATTITUDE
written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 | 02:12:10
If the muslims show sura 86.005-007, they will laugh their heads off and would agree something is not in place about the quran....
.........................................................
I dont get your joke... you mean you creted from toddy juice or what...?
What has your Christian Bible got to say about creation of man..??
What has you Christian Bible got to say about the shape of Earth ...???
02B) My reminder
written by mimag2005, February 08, 2008 | 11:52:22
Hi PROFESSOR Avanza1…!!!
written by Avanza1, February 06, 2008 | 01:39:14
If the muslims show sura 86.005-007, they will laugh their heads off and would agree something is not in place about the quran.
..............................
01) What is not in place...?
02) What is the correct answer...?
03) Avanza reply
written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 | 22:33:20
written by mimag2005, February 08, 2008 | 11:52:22
01) What is not in place...? RAMBUTANS
02) What is the correct answer...? RAMBUTANS
04A) What was the questions raised by Avanza..?
AA.1) Following verse speaks of what human organ PRODUCES semen/human sperm.
AA.2) If the muslims show sura 86.005-007, they will laugh their heads off and would agree SOMETHING IS NOT IN PLACEabout the quran
04B) What was Avanza1 answer to his own questions..?
BB.1)
written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 | 22:33:20
written by mimag2005, February 08, 2008 | 11:52:22
01) What is not in place...? RAMBUTANS...!!!
02) What is the correct answer...? RAMBUTANS...!!
05) By Avanza1 own admission, he CONFIRMS that the RAMBUTANS is THE FACTORY that PRODUCES SEMEN…!!!...
Also by his understanding THRU HIS SENSES…during coitus…. SEMEN WILL GUSH OUT FROM HIS RAMBUTANS...!!
06) My reply and explanation(given briefly as in below) are based on ESTABLISHED SCIENTIFIC FACTS…WHICH CLEARLY DEBUNKED Avanza1 “ INSPIRED†answers
written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 | 04:33:27
The Quran does not use the word ‘sperm’, nor the word ‘semen’, nor does it say anything about the production of semen or sperm.
The emphasis is clearly on the word ‘daafiq’, the surging, the welling out, the pouring forth, the shedding, and the flowing out of the fluid.
It says simply that man is created from the liquid that is ejaculated. During coitus that liquid springs from the abdomen (“between the ribcage and the spineâ€Â). ..Or you can say…during coitus semen is ejaculated from the two storage areas called the SEMINAL VESICLES..... and NOT FROM AVANZA AND HIS GODs RAMBUTANS...!!
This is a scientific fac.....!!!
Therefore the statement of the Qur An is absolutely correct!
For the benefit of other bloggers.. let me elaborate further…
07) Avanza...in response to your HOSTILITY... I had posed the following questions on 6 February, which you have still not repiled.
For the BENEFIT OF ALL BLOGGERS… I shall repeat these questions……and hope your passion for . ….†LOVE in CHRISTIANITY “ …and like all GOOD CHRISTIANS…you possess the “ Faculties “ of RESPONSIBILITY and ACCOUNTABILITY and give your replies...!
AA),,,,,written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 | 02:12:10
What has your Christian Bible got to say about creation of man..??
What has you Christian Bible got to say about the shape of Earth ...??
BB)…..written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 | 02:26:24
written by Avanza1, February 06, 2008 | 01:20:37
All the scientific miracles are copied from prior/same period of civilization. It is shameful to claim it as Quranic scientific miracles.....
.................................
I guess you must be referring to my earlier post.
.... can you please present your PROOFS..??....
Also anything in the Bible that cud be proven scientifically...?
............
written by mimag2005, February 10, 2008 07:38:21
written by Avanza1, February 10, 2008 | 04:50:01
.. So we are CREATED from 2-5% and not 07-98% of it....
...........................................................
Avanza...!!
TRYING TO DO ANOTHER SPIN...???
Lets go back to the starting point...
01A) written by Avanza1, February 06, 2008 | 01:20:37
All the scientific miracles are copied from prior/same period of civilization. It is shameful to claim it as Quranic scientific miracles. Either Allah in quran not the creator of man or faulty scientific observation were copied over wholely
Following verse speaks of what human ORGAN PRODUCES semen/human sperm. Is Allah some kind of alien been?
086.005 So let man consider from what he is created.
086.006 He is created from a GUSHING FLUID
086.007 That ISSUED FROM BETWEEN THE LOINS AND RIBS.
01B) Avanza 2ND HOSTILE entrance
written by Avanza1, February 06, 2008 | 01:39:14
If the muslims show sura 86.005-007, they will laugh their heads off and would agree something is not in place about the quran. Guys please be aware, they are not showing all about quran. There are…..
02A) My response to Avanza HOSTILE ATTITUDE
written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 | 02:12:10
If the muslims show sura 86.005-007, they will laugh their heads off and would agree something is not in place about the quran....
.........................................................
I dont get your joke... you mean you creted from toddy juice or what...?
What has your Christian Bible got to say about creation of man..??
What has you Christian Bible got to say about the shape of Earth ...???
02B) My reminder
written by mimag2005, February 08, 2008 | 11:52:22
Hi PROFESSOR Avanza1…!!!
written by Avanza1, February 06, 2008 | 01:39:14
If the muslims show sura 86.005-007, they will laugh their heads off and would agree something is not in place about the quran.
..............................
01) What is not in place...?
02) What is the correct answer...?
03) Avanza reply
written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 | 22:33:20
written by mimag2005, February 08, 2008 | 11:52:22
01) What is not in place...? RAMBUTANS
02) What is the correct answer...? RAMBUTANS
04A) What was the questions raised by Avanza..?
AA.1) Following verse speaks of what human organ PRODUCES semen/human sperm.
AA.2) If the muslims show sura 86.005-007, they will laugh their heads off and would agree SOMETHING IS NOT IN PLACEabout the quran
04B) What was Avanza1 answer to his own questions..?
BB.1)
written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 | 22:33:20
written by mimag2005, February 08, 2008 | 11:52:22
01) What is not in place...? RAMBUTANS...!!!
02) What is the correct answer...? RAMBUTANS...!!
05) By Avanza1 own admission, he CONFIRMS that the RAMBUTANS is THE FACTORY that PRODUCES SEMEN…!!!...
Also by his understanding THRU HIS SENSES…during coitus…. SEMEN WILL GUSH OUT FROM HIS RAMBUTANS...!!
06) My reply and explanation(given briefly as in below) are based on ESTABLISHED SCIENTIFIC FACTS…WHICH CLEARLY DEBUNKED Avanza1 “ INSPIRED†answers
written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 | 04:33:27
The Quran does not use the word ‘sperm’, nor the word ‘semen’, nor does it say anything about the production of semen or sperm.
The emphasis is clearly on the word ‘daafiq’, the surging, the welling out, the pouring forth, the shedding, and the flowing out of the fluid.
It says simply that man is created from the liquid that is ejaculated. During coitus that liquid springs from the abdomen (“between the ribcage and the spineâ€Â). ..Or you can say…during coitus semen is ejaculated from the two storage areas called the SEMINAL VESICLES..... and NOT FROM AVANZA AND HIS GODs RAMBUTANS...!!
This is a scientific fac.....!!!
Therefore the statement of the Qur An is absolutely correct!
For the benefit of other bloggers.. let me elaborate further…
07) Avanza...in response to your HOSTILITY... I had posed the following questions on 6 February, which you have still not repiled.
For the BENEFIT OF ALL BLOGGERS… I shall repeat these questions……and hope your passion for . ….†LOVE in CHRISTIANITY “ …and like all GOOD CHRISTIANS…you possess the “ Faculties “ of RESPONSIBILITY and ACCOUNTABILITY and give your replies...!
AA),,,,,written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 | 02:12:10
What has your Christian Bible got to say about creation of man..??
What has you Christian Bible got to say about the shape of Earth ...??
BB)…..written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 | 02:26:24
written by Avanza1, February 06, 2008 | 01:20:37
All the scientific miracles are copied from prior/same period of civilization. It is shameful to claim it as Quranic scientific miracles.....
.................................
I guess you must be referring to my earlier post.
.... can you please present your PROOFS..??....
Also anything in the Bible that cud be proven scientifically...?
............
-
- +0
-
-
...
written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 21:00:54
written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 21:00:54
Hi Avanza1
See what your Christian Scholars say about the FALSEHOOD OF " TRINITY "
“ THE HOLY BIBLE “
TRINITY - THE FALSEHOOD EXPOSED
.................................
B. Fabrication -- 1 John 5:7 :-
"The text about the three heavenly witnesses (I John 5:7 KJV) is not an authentic part of the NT." [The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. 4, p.711, Abingdon Press.]
"1 John 5:7 in the KJV reads: 'There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one' but this is an interpolation of which there is no trace before the late fourth century." [The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. 4, p. 871, Abingdon Press.]
"1 John 5:7 in the Textus Receptus (represented in the KJV) makes it appear that John had arrived at the doctrine of the trinity in explicit form ('the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost'), but this text is clearly an interpolation since no genuine Greek manuscript contains it." [The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary, Edited by Allen C. Myers, p. 1020]
Peake's Commentary on the Bible says:
"The famous interpolation after 'three witnesses' is not printed even in RSVn, and rightly. It cites the heavenly testimony of the Father, the logos, and the Holy Spirit, but is never used in the early Trinitarian controversies. No respectable Greek MS contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th-cent. Latin text, it entered the Vulgate and finally the NT of Erasmus."
In "The Dictionary of the Bible," bearing the Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur, and Imprimi Potest (official Church seals of approval), we read:
"The trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. That belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief." [The Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, S.J., p. 899]
Mr. Edward Gibbon, explains the reason for the discard of this verse from the pages of the Bible with the following words:
"Of all the manuscripts now extant, above fourscore in number, some of which are more than 1200 years old, the orthodox copies of the Vatican, of the Complutensian editors, of Robert Stephens are becoming invisible; and the two manuscripts of Dublin and Berlin are unworthy to form an exception...In the eleventh and twelfth centuries, the Bibles were corrected by LanFrank, Archbishop of Canterbury, and by Nicholas, a cardinal and librarian of the Roman church, secundum Ortodoxam fidem. Notwithstanding these corrections, the passage is still wanting in twenty-five Latin manuscripts, the oldest and fairest; two qualities seldom united, except in manuscripts....The three witnesses have been established in our Greek Testaments by the prudence of Erasmus; the honest bigotry of the Complutensian editors; the typographical fraud, or error, of Robert Stephens in the placing of a crotchet and the deliberate falsehood, or strange misapprehension, of Theodore Beza." ["Decline and fall of the Roman Empire," IV, Gibbon, p. 418.]
The above two verses are interpolations into the text of the NT and despite the fact that this is well known and admitted by the over whelming majority of NT scholars, many Christians are still programmed into believing that the above two fabrications are an integral part of the Bible inspired by the Holy Ghost.
The illogical/paradoxical/mysterious concept of the Trinity is exposed in many many web sites in great detail, so I will not go into that. However I will quote Ingersoll, who probably summarized the Trinitarian enigma as well as anyone when he said:
"Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost third. Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both. The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten--just the same before as after. Christ is just as old as his father, and the father is just as young as his son. The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but was equal to the Father and Son before he proceeded, that is to say, before he existed, but he is of the same age as the other two. So it is declared that the Father is God, and the Son and the Holy Ghost God, and these three Gods make one God. According to the celestial multiplication table, once one is three, and three time one is one, and according to heavenly subtraction if we take two from three, three are left. The addition is equally peculiar: if we add two to one we have but one.
Each one equal to himself and to the other two. Nothing ever was, nothing ever can be more perfectly idiotic and absurd than the dogma of the Trinity." [Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 4, p. 266-67].
I must confess, no one could have defined the absurdity of the Trinity concept better than Ingersoll.
.......................
See what your Christian Scholars say about the FALSEHOOD OF " TRINITY "
“ THE HOLY BIBLE “
TRINITY - THE FALSEHOOD EXPOSED
.................................
B. Fabrication -- 1 John 5:7 :-
"The text about the three heavenly witnesses (I John 5:7 KJV) is not an authentic part of the NT." [The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. 4, p.711, Abingdon Press.]
"1 John 5:7 in the KJV reads: 'There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one' but this is an interpolation of which there is no trace before the late fourth century." [The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. 4, p. 871, Abingdon Press.]
"1 John 5:7 in the Textus Receptus (represented in the KJV) makes it appear that John had arrived at the doctrine of the trinity in explicit form ('the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost'), but this text is clearly an interpolation since no genuine Greek manuscript contains it." [The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary, Edited by Allen C. Myers, p. 1020]
Peake's Commentary on the Bible says:
"The famous interpolation after 'three witnesses' is not printed even in RSVn, and rightly. It cites the heavenly testimony of the Father, the logos, and the Holy Spirit, but is never used in the early Trinitarian controversies. No respectable Greek MS contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th-cent. Latin text, it entered the Vulgate and finally the NT of Erasmus."
In "The Dictionary of the Bible," bearing the Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur, and Imprimi Potest (official Church seals of approval), we read:
"The trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. That belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief." [The Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, S.J., p. 899]
Mr. Edward Gibbon, explains the reason for the discard of this verse from the pages of the Bible with the following words:
"Of all the manuscripts now extant, above fourscore in number, some of which are more than 1200 years old, the orthodox copies of the Vatican, of the Complutensian editors, of Robert Stephens are becoming invisible; and the two manuscripts of Dublin and Berlin are unworthy to form an exception...In the eleventh and twelfth centuries, the Bibles were corrected by LanFrank, Archbishop of Canterbury, and by Nicholas, a cardinal and librarian of the Roman church, secundum Ortodoxam fidem. Notwithstanding these corrections, the passage is still wanting in twenty-five Latin manuscripts, the oldest and fairest; two qualities seldom united, except in manuscripts....The three witnesses have been established in our Greek Testaments by the prudence of Erasmus; the honest bigotry of the Complutensian editors; the typographical fraud, or error, of Robert Stephens in the placing of a crotchet and the deliberate falsehood, or strange misapprehension, of Theodore Beza." ["Decline and fall of the Roman Empire," IV, Gibbon, p. 418.]
The above two verses are interpolations into the text of the NT and despite the fact that this is well known and admitted by the over whelming majority of NT scholars, many Christians are still programmed into believing that the above two fabrications are an integral part of the Bible inspired by the Holy Ghost.
The illogical/paradoxical/mysterious concept of the Trinity is exposed in many many web sites in great detail, so I will not go into that. However I will quote Ingersoll, who probably summarized the Trinitarian enigma as well as anyone when he said:
"Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost third. Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both. The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten--just the same before as after. Christ is just as old as his father, and the father is just as young as his son. The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but was equal to the Father and Son before he proceeded, that is to say, before he existed, but he is of the same age as the other two. So it is declared that the Father is God, and the Son and the Holy Ghost God, and these three Gods make one God. According to the celestial multiplication table, once one is three, and three time one is one, and according to heavenly subtraction if we take two from three, three are left. The addition is equally peculiar: if we add two to one we have but one.
Each one equal to himself and to the other two. Nothing ever was, nothing ever can be more perfectly idiotic and absurd than the dogma of the Trinity." [Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 4, p. 266-67].
I must confess, no one could have defined the absurdity of the Trinity concept better than Ingersoll.
.......................
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-
-
...
written by Avanza1, February 09, 2008 20:50:01
written by Avanza1, February 09, 2008 20:50:01
>>written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 | 20:31:33
“ you are not so great “..... Golda Meir
True, I m not so great. I am no politician neither m I a professor
. Just another ordinary guy.
>>The ejaculated fluid has all that is needed, including the sperms (2-5% sperms, 95-98% other ingredients).
Thank you for the education. So we are created from 2-5% and not 07-98% of it. So the description from sura is incomplete and too general. It's some around there-lah. Thank you for the confirmation.
Quote "Semen quality is a measure of the ability of semen to accomplish fertilisation. Thus, it is a measure of fertility in a man. It is the sperm in the semen that are of importance, and therefore semen quality involves both sperm quantity and sperm quality."
Moreover many knowledge are aquired and not by devine revelations as claimed. A business man get to know more from this oversea trips on caravan. One of such is sura 82.5-7
Quote "Islamic philosophy as the name implies refers to philosophical activity within the Islamic milieu. The main sources of classical or early Islamic philosophy are the religion of Islam itself (especially ideas derived and interpreted from the Quran), Greek philosophy which the early Muslims inherited as a result of conquests when Alexandria, Syria and Jundishapur came under Muslim rule, along with pre-Islamic Iranian and Indian philosophy. Many of the early philosophical debates centered around reconciling religion and reason, the latter exemplified by Greek philosophy. one aspect which stands out in islmic philosophy is that, the philosophy in Islam travels wide but comes back to conform it with the quran and sunna."
>>written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 | 05:21:20
Hi Avanza,
written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 | 22:47:4
If you read it in English there is no indication or mention the world is flat.
..........................................................................
If theres vacuum between the ears...no need to advertise...!!!
Which Cikgu taught you sphere got 4 corners....????
**http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c017.html
the four corners of the earth
every part of the world. The giant company plans to bring coffee and soft drinks to the four corners of the earth.
>>....Remember you drew “ FIRST BLOOD “....!!!
** first blood?? It was drawn long time ago my MENJ and gang. Now he is calling all Christians to be branded cause be r out of hand. What crimes have Christians committed, I wonder?
Thank you for keeping yr Zakarwi knife at home. It is a crime carrying one around.
Sorry to dissapoint you, I am not a Jedi, No special forces with me.
“ you are not so great “..... Golda Meir
True, I m not so great. I am no politician neither m I a professor
. Just another ordinary guy.
>>The ejaculated fluid has all that is needed, including the sperms (2-5% sperms, 95-98% other ingredients).
Thank you for the education. So we are created from 2-5% and not 07-98% of it. So the description from sura is incomplete and too general. It's some around there-lah. Thank you for the confirmation.
Quote "Semen quality is a measure of the ability of semen to accomplish fertilisation. Thus, it is a measure of fertility in a man. It is the sperm in the semen that are of importance, and therefore semen quality involves both sperm quantity and sperm quality."
Moreover many knowledge are aquired and not by devine revelations as claimed. A business man get to know more from this oversea trips on caravan. One of such is sura 82.5-7
Quote "Islamic philosophy as the name implies refers to philosophical activity within the Islamic milieu. The main sources of classical or early Islamic philosophy are the religion of Islam itself (especially ideas derived and interpreted from the Quran), Greek philosophy which the early Muslims inherited as a result of conquests when Alexandria, Syria and Jundishapur came under Muslim rule, along with pre-Islamic Iranian and Indian philosophy. Many of the early philosophical debates centered around reconciling religion and reason, the latter exemplified by Greek philosophy. one aspect which stands out in islmic philosophy is that, the philosophy in Islam travels wide but comes back to conform it with the quran and sunna."
>>written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 | 05:21:20
Hi Avanza,
written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 | 22:47:4
If you read it in English there is no indication or mention the world is flat.
..........................................................................
If theres vacuum between the ears...no need to advertise...!!!
Which Cikgu taught you sphere got 4 corners....????
**http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c017.html
the four corners of the earth
every part of the world. The giant company plans to bring coffee and soft drinks to the four corners of the earth.
>>....Remember you drew “ FIRST BLOOD “....!!!
** first blood?? It was drawn long time ago my MENJ and gang. Now he is calling all Christians to be branded cause be r out of hand. What crimes have Christians committed, I wonder?
Thank you for keeping yr Zakarwi knife at home. It is a crime carrying one around.
Sorry to dissapoint you, I am not a Jedi, No special forces with me.
-
- +0
-
-
...
written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 19:52:16
AVANZA 1
“ THE HOLY BIBLE “
***John***
Professor R.W.Rogerson an Anglican clergyman and a Canon Emeritus of Sheffield Cathedral, in his recent work An Introduction to the Bible writes:
"The conviction has grown that the Gospel was not written by a single author, but is an outcome of a long process of growth in which the distinction between author and redactor/editor was not clear. This conclusion militates against the traditional view that the author was the apostle John, the son of Zebedee, and the disciple whom Jesus loved (John 13:23)." [An Introduction to the Bible, pg. 122]
The New Jerome Biblical Commentary whilst discussing this issue notes that:
"The author of John 21 clearly does not identify the Beloved Disciple, who is the source of the Johannine tradition, with John the son of Zebedee. John 21:2 refers to "the (sons) of Zebedee", whereas 21:7, 20 refer to the Beloved Disciple."
Graham Stanton a Professor of New Testament Studies also points out that:
"If the Beloved Disciple belonged to the circle of disciples of Jesus from the beginning, why does the first reference to the beloved disciple come only at 13:23?" [The Gospels and Jesus, pg. 124]
Maurice Casey in his most recent book Is John's Gospel True? discusses the views that are generally championed by the Evangelical Christians and proves "beyond all reasonable doubt" that these views are demonstrably false. He finally concludes that:
"The Gospel was written by several people when anonymous and pseudepigraphical compositions were normal." [Is John's Gospel true? Pg.176]
Finally, it is also important to note that some early Christians were very suspicious of John's Gospel due to the fact that it is very different from the Synoptic gospels and its popularity with Gnostic and heretical groups. (The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, pg. 946)
.... There are more articles....
If you are SINCERE SEEKER OF TRUTH.....YOU MUST RECOGNISE TRUTH FROM FLASE...!!!!
......
written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 19:52:16
AVANZA 1
“ THE HOLY BIBLE “
***John***
Professor R.W.Rogerson an Anglican clergyman and a Canon Emeritus of Sheffield Cathedral, in his recent work An Introduction to the Bible writes:
"The conviction has grown that the Gospel was not written by a single author, but is an outcome of a long process of growth in which the distinction between author and redactor/editor was not clear. This conclusion militates against the traditional view that the author was the apostle John, the son of Zebedee, and the disciple whom Jesus loved (John 13:23)." [An Introduction to the Bible, pg. 122]
The New Jerome Biblical Commentary whilst discussing this issue notes that:
"The author of John 21 clearly does not identify the Beloved Disciple, who is the source of the Johannine tradition, with John the son of Zebedee. John 21:2 refers to "the (sons) of Zebedee", whereas 21:7, 20 refer to the Beloved Disciple."
Graham Stanton a Professor of New Testament Studies also points out that:
"If the Beloved Disciple belonged to the circle of disciples of Jesus from the beginning, why does the first reference to the beloved disciple come only at 13:23?" [The Gospels and Jesus, pg. 124]
Maurice Casey in his most recent book Is John's Gospel True? discusses the views that are generally championed by the Evangelical Christians and proves "beyond all reasonable doubt" that these views are demonstrably false. He finally concludes that:
"The Gospel was written by several people when anonymous and pseudepigraphical compositions were normal." [Is John's Gospel true? Pg.176]
Finally, it is also important to note that some early Christians were very suspicious of John's Gospel due to the fact that it is very different from the Synoptic gospels and its popularity with Gnostic and heretical groups. (The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, pg. 946)
.... There are more articles....
If you are SINCERE SEEKER OF TRUTH.....YOU MUST RECOGNISE TRUTH FROM FLASE...!!!!
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written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 19:50:03
“ THE HOLY BIBLE
“
***John***
Regarding the Gospel of John, Encyclopedia Britannica writes:
"From internal evidence the Gospel was written by a beloved disciple whose name is unknown. Because both external and internal evidence are doubtful, a working hypothesis is that John and the Johannine letters were written and edited somewhere in the East (perhaps Ephesus) as the product of a "school," or Johannine circle, at the end of the 1st century." [Biblical Literature and Its Critical Interpretation, THE FOURTH GOSPEL: THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JOHN, Uniqueness of John.]
"The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church", regarding the Gospel of John:
"The Apostolic origin of the book, however, is contested by a large body of modern scholars whose position vary from a complete rejection of both its authenticity and its historicity to the admission of Apostolic inspiration and a certain historical value. The unity of the book has been disputed esp. by German scholars, e.g. J. Wellhausen, R. Bultmann. Where its unity is admitted, its attribution to John the Presbyter is favored." [The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, John The Apostle, 1974, pg. 743]
"Peakes Commentary on the Bible", the introduction of the Gospel of John starts with the following words:
"The origin of this Gospel is veiled in obscurity." [Peakes Commentary on the Bible, C. K. Barrett, "John", Nelson 1967]
"New Testament Commentary" writes about the authorship of John's Gospel:
"The picture which emerges (according to these critics) is that of a profound logical treatise, composed late in the first or more probably early in the second century, by some unknown author who had a thesis to propound, and did so under the (now established) literary form of a "gospel". It was not, evidently, a fisherman from Galilee who had the learning and the culture to leave such a monument behind him. Possibly the author may have been that "John the elder" who is referred to by Papias (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, 3.39.4 and 14) as a valuable source of early tradition." [Knox, New Testament Commentary, Introduction, 1955, pg. xiii]
Knox, further states, regarding the Gospel of John:
"In 21.24, and possibly in 19.35, another hand, not that of the author has made its contribution (cf. Rom. 16.22). This raises the question whether we ought to think of John as sitting and writing the gospel with his own hand. It is improbable that one who was regarded as "a simple man, without learning" by his own fellow countrymen (Acts 4.13) would have lived to write Greek as idiomatic as that of the Fourth gospel." [Knox, New Testament Commentary, Introduction, 1955, pg. xv].
[The above quotes taken from "Is The Bible Corrupted?" by: The Learner.]
The conclusions of Biblical scholarship are recorded by the Encyclopedia Biblica:
John: "No mention of the Fourth Gospel which we can recognize as such carries us further than to 140 A.D. As late as 152, Justin, who nevertheless lays so great value upon the ‘Memorabilia of the Apostles, regards John--if indeed he knows it at all--with distrust, and appropriates from it a very few sayings. ... If on independent grounds some period shortly before 140 A.D. can be set down as the approximate date of the production of the gospel ... The Apostolic authorship of the gospel remains impossible, and that not merely from the consideration that it cannot be the son of Zebedee who has introduced himself as writer in so remarkable a fashion, but also from the consideration that it cannot be an eye-witness of the facts of the life of Jesus who has presented, as against the synoptists, an account so much less credible, nor an original apostle who has shown himself so readily accessible to Alexandrine and Gnostic ideas, nor a contemporary of Jesus who survived so late into the second century and yet was capable of composing so profound a work." [EB. ii, 2550, 2553.]
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written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 19:50:03
“ THE HOLY BIBLE
“
***John***
Regarding the Gospel of John, Encyclopedia Britannica writes:
"From internal evidence the Gospel was written by a beloved disciple whose name is unknown. Because both external and internal evidence are doubtful, a working hypothesis is that John and the Johannine letters were written and edited somewhere in the East (perhaps Ephesus) as the product of a "school," or Johannine circle, at the end of the 1st century." [Biblical Literature and Its Critical Interpretation, THE FOURTH GOSPEL: THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JOHN, Uniqueness of John.]
"The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church", regarding the Gospel of John:
"The Apostolic origin of the book, however, is contested by a large body of modern scholars whose position vary from a complete rejection of both its authenticity and its historicity to the admission of Apostolic inspiration and a certain historical value. The unity of the book has been disputed esp. by German scholars, e.g. J. Wellhausen, R. Bultmann. Where its unity is admitted, its attribution to John the Presbyter is favored." [The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, John The Apostle, 1974, pg. 743]
"Peakes Commentary on the Bible", the introduction of the Gospel of John starts with the following words:
"The origin of this Gospel is veiled in obscurity." [Peakes Commentary on the Bible, C. K. Barrett, "John", Nelson 1967]
"New Testament Commentary" writes about the authorship of John's Gospel:
"The picture which emerges (according to these critics) is that of a profound logical treatise, composed late in the first or more probably early in the second century, by some unknown author who had a thesis to propound, and did so under the (now established) literary form of a "gospel". It was not, evidently, a fisherman from Galilee who had the learning and the culture to leave such a monument behind him. Possibly the author may have been that "John the elder" who is referred to by Papias (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, 3.39.4 and 14) as a valuable source of early tradition." [Knox, New Testament Commentary, Introduction, 1955, pg. xiii]
Knox, further states, regarding the Gospel of John:
"In 21.24, and possibly in 19.35, another hand, not that of the author has made its contribution (cf. Rom. 16.22). This raises the question whether we ought to think of John as sitting and writing the gospel with his own hand. It is improbable that one who was regarded as "a simple man, without learning" by his own fellow countrymen (Acts 4.13) would have lived to write Greek as idiomatic as that of the Fourth gospel." [Knox, New Testament Commentary, Introduction, 1955, pg. xv].
[The above quotes taken from "Is The Bible Corrupted?" by: The Learner.]
The conclusions of Biblical scholarship are recorded by the Encyclopedia Biblica:
John: "No mention of the Fourth Gospel which we can recognize as such carries us further than to 140 A.D. As late as 152, Justin, who nevertheless lays so great value upon the ‘Memorabilia of the Apostles, regards John--if indeed he knows it at all--with distrust, and appropriates from it a very few sayings. ... If on independent grounds some period shortly before 140 A.D. can be set down as the approximate date of the production of the gospel ... The Apostolic authorship of the gospel remains impossible, and that not merely from the consideration that it cannot be the son of Zebedee who has introduced himself as writer in so remarkable a fashion, but also from the consideration that it cannot be an eye-witness of the facts of the life of Jesus who has presented, as against the synoptists, an account so much less credible, nor an original apostle who has shown himself so readily accessible to Alexandrine and Gnostic ideas, nor a contemporary of Jesus who survived so late into the second century and yet was capable of composing so profound a work." [EB. ii, 2550, 2553.]
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written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 19:47:01
“ THE HOLY BIBLE “
***Luke***
Regarding the Gospel of Luke, Encyclopedia Britannica says:
"The author has been identified with Luke, "the beloved physician," Paul's companion on his journeys, presumably a Gentile (Col. 4:14 and 11; cf. II Tim. 4:11, Philem. 24). There is no Papias fragment concerning Luke, and only late 2nd century traditions claim (somewhat ambiguously) that Paul was the guarantor of Luke's Gospel traditions. The Muratorian Canon refers to Luke, the physician, Paul's companion; Irenaeus depicts Luke as a follower of Paul's gospel. Eusebius has Luke as an Antiochene physician who was with Paul in order to give the Gospel apostolic authority. References are often made to Luke's medical language, but there is no evidence of such language beyond that to which any educated Greek might have been exposed. Of more import is the fact that in the writings of Luke specifically Pauline ideas are significantly missing; while Paul speaks of the death of Christ, Luke speaks rather of the suffering, and there are other differing and discrepant ideas on Law and eschatology. In short, the author of this gospel remains unknown." [Biblical Literature and Its Critical Interpretation, The Gospel According to Luke.]
The New American Bible whilst commenting on the author of anonymous Luke's gospel declares that:
"Early Christian tradition, from the late second century on, identifies the author of this gospel and the Acts of the Apostles as Luke, a Syrian from Antioch The prologue of the Gospel make it clear that Luke is not part of the first generation of Christian disciples."
The conclusions of Biblical scholarship are recorded by the Encyclopedia Biblica:
Luke: "This tradition [that Luke was the author of the third gospel and of Acts] cannot be traced farther back than towards the end of the second century (Irenaeus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, and the Muratorian fragment). ... It has been shown that it is impossible to regard Luke with any certainty as the writer even of the ‘we’ sections of Acts, not to speak of the whole book of Acts, or of the Third Gospel. ... If Luke cannot have been the author of Acts, neither can he have been the author of the Third Gospel." [EB. ii, 1893, 2831.]
In the introduction to his translation of the "Gospel according to St. Luke," J.B. Phillips has this to say regarding anonymous Luke's sources:
"On his own admission Luke has carefully compared and edited existing material, but it would seem that he had access to a good deal of additional material, and we can reasonably guess at some of the sources from which he drew. Furthermore the New Encyclopedia Britannica gives references to the writings of Irenaeus and Eusebius where Luke is depicted as a follower of Paul's gospel. In the Muratorian Canon Luke is identified as a companion of Paul, but even this identification is widely questioned because of the author's inaccuracies about Paul's career. (The Birth of the Messiah, Raymond Brown, pg. 236)
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written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 19:47:01
“ THE HOLY BIBLE “
***Luke***
Regarding the Gospel of Luke, Encyclopedia Britannica says:
"The author has been identified with Luke, "the beloved physician," Paul's companion on his journeys, presumably a Gentile (Col. 4:14 and 11; cf. II Tim. 4:11, Philem. 24). There is no Papias fragment concerning Luke, and only late 2nd century traditions claim (somewhat ambiguously) that Paul was the guarantor of Luke's Gospel traditions. The Muratorian Canon refers to Luke, the physician, Paul's companion; Irenaeus depicts Luke as a follower of Paul's gospel. Eusebius has Luke as an Antiochene physician who was with Paul in order to give the Gospel apostolic authority. References are often made to Luke's medical language, but there is no evidence of such language beyond that to which any educated Greek might have been exposed. Of more import is the fact that in the writings of Luke specifically Pauline ideas are significantly missing; while Paul speaks of the death of Christ, Luke speaks rather of the suffering, and there are other differing and discrepant ideas on Law and eschatology. In short, the author of this gospel remains unknown." [Biblical Literature and Its Critical Interpretation, The Gospel According to Luke.]
The New American Bible whilst commenting on the author of anonymous Luke's gospel declares that:
"Early Christian tradition, from the late second century on, identifies the author of this gospel and the Acts of the Apostles as Luke, a Syrian from Antioch The prologue of the Gospel make it clear that Luke is not part of the first generation of Christian disciples."
The conclusions of Biblical scholarship are recorded by the Encyclopedia Biblica:
Luke: "This tradition [that Luke was the author of the third gospel and of Acts] cannot be traced farther back than towards the end of the second century (Irenaeus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, and the Muratorian fragment). ... It has been shown that it is impossible to regard Luke with any certainty as the writer even of the ‘we’ sections of Acts, not to speak of the whole book of Acts, or of the Third Gospel. ... If Luke cannot have been the author of Acts, neither can he have been the author of the Third Gospel." [EB. ii, 1893, 2831.]
In the introduction to his translation of the "Gospel according to St. Luke," J.B. Phillips has this to say regarding anonymous Luke's sources:
"On his own admission Luke has carefully compared and edited existing material, but it would seem that he had access to a good deal of additional material, and we can reasonably guess at some of the sources from which he drew. Furthermore the New Encyclopedia Britannica gives references to the writings of Irenaeus and Eusebius where Luke is depicted as a follower of Paul's gospel. In the Muratorian Canon Luke is identified as a companion of Paul, but even this identification is widely questioned because of the author's inaccuracies about Paul's career. (The Birth of the Messiah, Raymond Brown, pg. 236)
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written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 19:46:18
“ THE HOLY BIBLE “
Furthermore Irenaeus (180 C.E) states that:
"Peter and Paul proclaimed the Gospel in Rome. After their death, Mark the disciple and interpreter of Peter, transmitted his preaching to us in written form" [Against Heresies III.i.1]
Keeping the above evidence in mind we can conclude that, Mark was not a prominent leader in the church, that he was neither a disciple of Jesus nor an apostle and that secondly since Peter died in the year 64/65 A.D, the Gospel of Mark cannot have been written before this date. (1) Titles of the Gospels The first four historical books of the New Testament are supplied with titles (Euaggelion kata Matthaion, Euaggelion kata Markon, etc.), which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those sacred writings.
"Justin Martyr (100-165 CE) relying on the testimony of Papias refers to the gospel of Mark as the "memoir" of Peter. . . . t must be acknowledged that the gospels [as we have them today] do not match the description that Justin Martyr offered for them in the middle of the second century A.D. The gospel of Mark is not a "memoir" of Peter, either in the sense that it recounts in a special way the associations of Peter with Jesus or in the sense that Mark reports first-hand recollections about Jesus. The material on which Mark drew passed through a long process of retelling and modification and interpretation, and it reflects less special interest in Peter than does Matthew's gospel." [Howard Clark Kee, Jesus in History, (New York: Harcourt, Brace & World Inc., 1970) p. 120. ]
"Mark's Jesus is a man in a hurry, dashing throughout Galilee in rapid, almost random motion, from synagogue to invalid, from shore to grain field to sea, casting out demons and amazing those who witness him. The spare prose and staccato cures create a mood of nervous anticipation." [Fredriksen, Paula. From Jesus to Christ. (New Haven and London: Yale University Press, 198.]
This anonymous book (Gospel according to St Mark--whoever that is) also suffers from massive geographical problems. Mark 7:31 says that Jesus and his disciples journeyed "out from the borders of Tyre ... through Sidon, to the sea of Galilee, through the midst of the borders of Decapolis." This is geographically nonsensical. "How many have been the headaches of commentators, trying to make sense out of that!" [H. Anderson,The Gospel of Mark, NCB (London, 1976).
Also cited by Wells, The Historical Evidence for Jesus, p. 230. The journey described is like "travelling from Cornwall to London by way of Manchester" (A.E.J. Rawlinson, Westminster Commentary); as cited in D.E. Nineham, The Gospel of Saint Mark (Penguin New Testament Commentaries, 1963), p. 203. An American example might be to go from Los Angeles to San Diego by way of Santa Barbara; or, New York to Philadelphia by way of Baltimore.]
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written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 19:46:18
“ THE HOLY BIBLE “
Furthermore Irenaeus (180 C.E) states that:
"Peter and Paul proclaimed the Gospel in Rome. After their death, Mark the disciple and interpreter of Peter, transmitted his preaching to us in written form" [Against Heresies III.i.1]
Keeping the above evidence in mind we can conclude that, Mark was not a prominent leader in the church, that he was neither a disciple of Jesus nor an apostle and that secondly since Peter died in the year 64/65 A.D, the Gospel of Mark cannot have been written before this date. (1) Titles of the Gospels The first four historical books of the New Testament are supplied with titles (Euaggelion kata Matthaion, Euaggelion kata Markon, etc.), which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those sacred writings.
"Justin Martyr (100-165 CE) relying on the testimony of Papias refers to the gospel of Mark as the "memoir" of Peter. . . . t must be acknowledged that the gospels [as we have them today] do not match the description that Justin Martyr offered for them in the middle of the second century A.D. The gospel of Mark is not a "memoir" of Peter, either in the sense that it recounts in a special way the associations of Peter with Jesus or in the sense that Mark reports first-hand recollections about Jesus. The material on which Mark drew passed through a long process of retelling and modification and interpretation, and it reflects less special interest in Peter than does Matthew's gospel." [Howard Clark Kee, Jesus in History, (New York: Harcourt, Brace & World Inc., 1970) p. 120. ]
"Mark's Jesus is a man in a hurry, dashing throughout Galilee in rapid, almost random motion, from synagogue to invalid, from shore to grain field to sea, casting out demons and amazing those who witness him. The spare prose and staccato cures create a mood of nervous anticipation." [Fredriksen, Paula. From Jesus to Christ. (New Haven and London: Yale University Press, 198
.] This anonymous book (Gospel according to St Mark--whoever that is) also suffers from massive geographical problems. Mark 7:31 says that Jesus and his disciples journeyed "out from the borders of Tyre ... through Sidon, to the sea of Galilee, through the midst of the borders of Decapolis." This is geographically nonsensical. "How many have been the headaches of commentators, trying to make sense out of that!" [H. Anderson,The Gospel of Mark, NCB (London, 1976).
Also cited by Wells, The Historical Evidence for Jesus, p. 230. The journey described is like "travelling from Cornwall to London by way of Manchester" (A.E.J. Rawlinson, Westminster Commentary); as cited in D.E. Nineham, The Gospel of Saint Mark (Penguin New Testament Commentaries, 1963), p. 203. An American example might be to go from Los Angeles to San Diego by way of Santa Barbara; or, New York to Philadelphia by way of Baltimore.]
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written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 19:45:05
“ THE HOLY BIBLE “
***Mark***
The Encyclopedia Britannica says about the Gospel of Mark:
"Though the author of Mark is probably unknown, authority is traditionally derived from a supposed connection with the Apostle Peter, who had transmitted the traditions before his martyr death under Nero's persecution (c. 64-65). Papias, a 2nd century bishop in Asia Minor, is quoted as saying that Mark had been Peter's amanuensis (secretary) who wrote as he remembered (after Peter's death), though not in the right order... (harmony of the Gospels)." [Biblical Literature and Its Critical Interpretation, THE SYNOPTIC GOSPELS, The Gospel According to Mark: Background and overview.]
The conclusions of Biblical scholarship are recorded by the Encyclopedia Biblica:
Mark: "According to Papias, the second gospel was written by Mark. ... In what Papias says the important point is not so much the statement that Mark wrote the gospel as the further statement that Peter supplied the contents orally. ... The supposition that the gospel is essentially a repetition of oral communications by Peter, will at once fall to the ground. ... Should Mark have written in Aramaic then he cannot be held to have been the author of canonical Mark, which is certainly not a translation, nor yet, in view of the LXX quotations which have passed over into all three gospels, can he be held to have been the author of the original Mark." [EB. ii, 1891.]
History of this anonymous book, Fredriksen [1988] states:
"[Early Christians] grouped together, preserving some of Jesus' teachings and some stories about him, which became part of the substance of their preaching as they continued his mission to prepare Israel for the coming of the Kingdom of God. At the same time or very shortly thereafter, these oral teachings began to circulate in Greek as well as in Jesus' native Aramaic. Eventually, some of Jesus' sayings, now in Greek, were collected and written down in a document, now lost, which scholars designate Q (from the German Quelle, "source"). Meanwhile, other oral traditions--miracle stories, parables, legends, and so on--grew, circulated, and were collected in different forms by various Christian communities. In the period around the destruction of the Second Temple (70 CE) an anonymous Gentile Christian wrote some of these down. This person was not an author--he did not compose de novo. Nor was he a historian--he did not deal directly and critically with his evidence. The writer was an evangelist, a sort of creative editor. He organized these stories into a sequence and shaped his inherited material into something resembling a historical narrative. The result was the Gospel of Mark." [Paula Fredriksen, From Jesus to Christ: The Origins of the New Testament Images of Jesus, (New Haven/London: Yale University Press, 198 p. 3-4]
Anonymous "Mark" used material which went through a process of evolution:-
"Justin Martyr (100-165 CE) relying on the testimony of Papias refers to the gospel of Mark as the "memoir" of Peter. . . . t must be acknowledged that the gospels [as we have them today] do not match the description that Justin Martyr offered for them in the middle of the second century A.D. The gospel of Mark is not a "memoir" of Peter, either in the sense that it recounts in a special way the associations of Peter with Jesus or in the sense that Mark reports first-hand recollections about Jesus. The material on which Mark drew passed through a long process of retelling and modification and interpretation, and it reflects less special interest in Peter than does Matthew's gospel." [Howard Clark Kee, Jesus in History, (New York: Harcourt, Brace & World Inc., 1970) p. 120.]
The early Christian scholar Eusebius of Caesarea (325 C.E) referring to the views of Papias (130 C.E) on the origin of Mark wrote:
"This also the Elder used to say. Mark indeed, having been the interpreter of Peter, wrote accurately, howbeit not in order, all that he recalled of what was either said or done by the Lord. For he (Mark) heard nothing of the Lord, nor was he a follower of his, but at a later date of Peter, who used to adapt his instructions to the (needs of his hearers), but not with a view to putting together the teachings of the Lord in orderly fashion." [Eusebius, Church History III, 39, 15]
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written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 19:45:05
“ THE HOLY BIBLE “
***Mark***
The Encyclopedia Britannica says about the Gospel of Mark:
"Though the author of Mark is probably unknown, authority is traditionally derived from a supposed connection with the Apostle Peter, who had transmitted the traditions before his martyr death under Nero's persecution (c. 64-65). Papias, a 2nd century bishop in Asia Minor, is quoted as saying that Mark had been Peter's amanuensis (secretary) who wrote as he remembered (after Peter's death), though not in the right order... (harmony of the Gospels)." [Biblical Literature and Its Critical Interpretation, THE SYNOPTIC GOSPELS, The Gospel According to Mark: Background and overview.]
The conclusions of Biblical scholarship are recorded by the Encyclopedia Biblica:
Mark: "According to Papias, the second gospel was written by Mark. ... In what Papias says the important point is not so much the statement that Mark wrote the gospel as the further statement that Peter supplied the contents orally. ... The supposition that the gospel is essentially a repetition of oral communications by Peter, will at once fall to the ground. ... Should Mark have written in Aramaic then he cannot be held to have been the author of canonical Mark, which is certainly not a translation, nor yet, in view of the LXX quotations which have passed over into all three gospels, can he be held to have been the author of the original Mark." [EB. ii, 1891.]
History of this anonymous book, Fredriksen [1988] states:
"[Early Christians] grouped together, preserving some of Jesus' teachings and some stories about him, which became part of the substance of their preaching as they continued his mission to prepare Israel for the coming of the Kingdom of God. At the same time or very shortly thereafter, these oral teachings began to circulate in Greek as well as in Jesus' native Aramaic. Eventually, some of Jesus' sayings, now in Greek, were collected and written down in a document, now lost, which scholars designate Q (from the German Quelle, "source"). Meanwhile, other oral traditions--miracle stories, parables, legends, and so on--grew, circulated, and were collected in different forms by various Christian communities. In the period around the destruction of the Second Temple (70 CE) an anonymous Gentile Christian wrote some of these down. This person was not an author--he did not compose de novo. Nor was he a historian--he did not deal directly and critically with his evidence. The writer was an evangelist, a sort of creative editor. He organized these stories into a sequence and shaped his inherited material into something resembling a historical narrative. The result was the Gospel of Mark." [Paula Fredriksen, From Jesus to Christ: The Origins of the New Testament Images of Jesus, (New Haven/London: Yale University Press, 198
p. 3-4] Anonymous "Mark" used material which went through a process of evolution:-
"Justin Martyr (100-165 CE) relying on the testimony of Papias refers to the gospel of Mark as the "memoir" of Peter. . . . t must be acknowledged that the gospels [as we have them today] do not match the description that Justin Martyr offered for them in the middle of the second century A.D. The gospel of Mark is not a "memoir" of Peter, either in the sense that it recounts in a special way the associations of Peter with Jesus or in the sense that Mark reports first-hand recollections about Jesus. The material on which Mark drew passed through a long process of retelling and modification and interpretation, and it reflects less special interest in Peter than does Matthew's gospel." [Howard Clark Kee, Jesus in History, (New York: Harcourt, Brace & World Inc., 1970) p. 120.]
The early Christian scholar Eusebius of Caesarea (325 C.E) referring to the views of Papias (130 C.E) on the origin of Mark wrote:
"This also the Elder used to say. Mark indeed, having been the interpreter of Peter, wrote accurately, howbeit not in order, all that he recalled of what was either said or done by the Lord. For he (Mark) heard nothing of the Lord, nor was he a follower of his, but at a later date of Peter, who used to adapt his instructions to the (needs of his hearers), but not with a view to putting together the teachings of the Lord in orderly fashion." [Eusebius, Church History III, 39, 15]
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written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 19:43:43
“ THE HOLY BIBLE “
12. The Gospels written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John?
These Gospels are all anonymous books meaning we don't know who wrote them because they have no names on them. Christians in other words depend and put their faith upon books which could have been written by any Tom(s), Dick(s) and Harry(s).
***Mathew***
Regarding the Gospel of Matthew, the Encyclopedia Britannica says:
"Although there is a Matthew named among the various lists of Jesus' disciples, more telling is the fact that the name of Levi, the tax collector who in Mark became a follower of Jesus, in Matthew is changed to Matthew. It would appear from this that Matthew was claiming apostolic authority for his Gospel through this device but that the writer of Matthew is probably anonymous." [Biblical Literature and Its Critical Interpretation, The Gospel According to Matthew.]
J. B. Phillips, a prebendary of the Chichester Cathedral, the Anglican Church of England:
"Early tradition ascribed this Gospel to the apostle Matthew, but scholars nowadays almost all reject this view. The author whom we can still conveniently call Mathew has plainly drawn on the mysterious 'Q', which may have been a collection of oral traditions." [The True Message of Jesus Christ, pg. 23]
The New American Bible in its introduction to Matthew's gospel, whilst presenting the prominent position held by the majority of the scholars states:
"The ancient tradition that the author was the disciple and apostle of Jesus named Matthew (see 10:3) is untenable because the gospel is based, in large parts, on the Gospel according to Mark (almost all the verses of that gospel have been utilized in this) and it is hardly likely that a companion of Jesus would have followed so extensively an account that came from one who admittedly never had such an association rather than rely on his own memories. The attribution of the gospel to the disciple Matthew may have been due to his having been responsible for some of the traditions found in it, but that is far from certain."
In his book "Who's Who in the Bible?" Peter Calvocressi writes:
" In early times the authorship of the Gospel was ascribed to the apostle Matthew, but since this view has been demolished we are left with an evangelist who, distinct from the apostle, must nevertheless continue to be called Matthew since we have no other name for him."
Raymond Brown in his commentary on the infancy Narratives in Matthew writes:
"There would be nearly unanimous agreement in scientific circles today that the evangelist is Unknown, although we continue the custom of referring to him as "Matthew". His dependence upon Mark indicates that he was not an eyewitness of the ministry of Jesus." [The Birth of the Messiah, pg. 45]
He concludes by writing in the footnote:
"Roman Catholics were among the last to give up defending officially the view that the Gospel was written by Matthew, one of the twelve." [Ibid. pg. 45]
The conclusions of Biblical scholarship are recorded by the Encyclopedia Biblica:
Matthew: "The employment of various sources, the characteristic difference of the quotations from the LXX (Septuagint) and the original (Hebrew), the indefiniteness of the determinations of time and place, the incredibleness of the contents, the introduction of later conditions, as also the artificial arrangement, and so forth, have long since led to the conclusion that for the authorship of the first Gospel the apostle Matthew must be given up." [EB. ii, 1891.]
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written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 19:43:43
“ THE HOLY BIBLE “
12. The Gospels written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John?
These Gospels are all anonymous books meaning we don't know who wrote them because they have no names on them. Christians in other words depend and put their faith upon books which could have been written by any Tom(s), Dick(s) and Harry(s).
***Mathew***
Regarding the Gospel of Matthew, the Encyclopedia Britannica says:
"Although there is a Matthew named among the various lists of Jesus' disciples, more telling is the fact that the name of Levi, the tax collector who in Mark became a follower of Jesus, in Matthew is changed to Matthew. It would appear from this that Matthew was claiming apostolic authority for his Gospel through this device but that the writer of Matthew is probably anonymous." [Biblical Literature and Its Critical Interpretation, The Gospel According to Matthew.]
J. B. Phillips, a prebendary of the Chichester Cathedral, the Anglican Church of England:
"Early tradition ascribed this Gospel to the apostle Matthew, but scholars nowadays almost all reject this view. The author whom we can still conveniently call Mathew has plainly drawn on the mysterious 'Q', which may have been a collection of oral traditions." [The True Message of Jesus Christ, pg. 23]
The New American Bible in its introduction to Matthew's gospel, whilst presenting the prominent position held by the majority of the scholars states:
"The ancient tradition that the author was the disciple and apostle of Jesus named Matthew (see 10:3) is untenable because the gospel is based, in large parts, on the Gospel according to Mark (almost all the verses of that gospel have been utilized in this) and it is hardly likely that a companion of Jesus would have followed so extensively an account that came from one who admittedly never had such an association rather than rely on his own memories. The attribution of the gospel to the disciple Matthew may have been due to his having been responsible for some of the traditions found in it, but that is far from certain."
In his book "Who's Who in the Bible?" Peter Calvocressi writes:
" In early times the authorship of the Gospel was ascribed to the apostle Matthew, but since this view has been demolished we are left with an evangelist who, distinct from the apostle, must nevertheless continue to be called Matthew since we have no other name for him."
Raymond Brown in his commentary on the infancy Narratives in Matthew writes:
"There would be nearly unanimous agreement in scientific circles today that the evangelist is Unknown, although we continue the custom of referring to him as "Matthew". His dependence upon Mark indicates that he was not an eyewitness of the ministry of Jesus." [The Birth of the Messiah, pg. 45]
He concludes by writing in the footnote:
"Roman Catholics were among the last to give up defending officially the view that the Gospel was written by Matthew, one of the twelve." [Ibid. pg. 45]
The conclusions of Biblical scholarship are recorded by the Encyclopedia Biblica:
Matthew: "The employment of various sources, the characteristic difference of the quotations from the LXX (Septuagint) and the original (Hebrew), the indefiniteness of the determinations of time and place, the incredibleness of the contents, the introduction of later conditions, as also the artificial arrangement, and so forth, have long since led to the conclusion that for the authorship of the first Gospel the apostle Matthew must be given up." [EB. ii, 1891.]
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written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 19:42:14
Hi Avanza1,
Instead of you putting so much time and efforts SNIFFING at other peoples gardens and DELIBERATELY CALLING THEIR GARDENS OF ROSES AS WEEDS........
For your OWN SOUL SAKE PLEASE RECOGNISE THE WEEDS GROWN IN YOUR OWN GARDEN…..
SEE BELOW WHAT EMINENT CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS SAY ABOU
“ THE HOLY BIBLE “
ORIGINAL COPIES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT :
The original copies of the NT have LONG DISAPPEARED, hence the NT is being restored (obviously because it is CORRUPT !) from imperfect mass of conflicting manuscripts:
"Since - like virtually all ancient literature - no autographs are extant for the NT, its most likely original text must be reconstructed from these imperfect, often widely divergent, later copies." [David Noel Freedman (Ed.), The Anchor Bible Dictionary On CD-ROM, (Under Textual Criticism, NT).]
Another admission:
"The original copies of the NT books have, of course, long since disappeared. This fact should not cause surprise. In the first place, they were written on papyrus, a very fragile and perishable material. In the second place, and probably of even more importance, the original copies of the NT books were not looked upon as scripture by those of the early Christian communities." [George Arthur Buttrick (Ed.), The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible, Volume 1, pp. 599 (Under Text, NT).]
The celebrated NT scholar, Bruce Metzger, admits:-
"The necessity of applying textual criticism to the books of the New Testament arises from two circumstances: (a) none of the original documents is extant, and (b) the existing copies differ from one another. The textual critic seeks to ascertain from the divergent copies which form of the text should be regarded as most nearly conforming to the original." [Bruce M. Metzger's "The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption and Restoration", 1964]
Bart Ehram states Christians saw no reason to preserve their originals:-
"...the early Christians evidently saw no need to preserve their original texts for antiquarian or other reasons. Had they been more fully cognizant of what happens to documents that are copied by hand, however, especially by hands that are not professionally trained for the job, they may have exercised greater caution in preserving the originals. As it is, for whatever historical reasons, the originals no longer survive. What do survive are copies of the originals, or, to be more precise, copies made from the copies of the copies of the originals, thousands of these subsequent copies, dating from the 2nd to the 16th centuries, some of them tiny fragments the size of a credit card, uncovered in garbage heaps buried in the sands of Egypt, others of them enormous and elegant tomes preserved in the great libraries and monasteries of Europe." ["Text and Tradition: The Role of New Testament Manuscripts in Early Christian Studies." The Kenneth W. Clark Lectures Duke Divinity School 1997 Lecture One: "Text and Interpretation: The Exegetical Significance of the "Original" Text" Delivered by Bart Ehram]
Bart Ehram also states:
"In any event, none of [the original manuscripts of the books of the Bible] now survive. What do survive are copies made over the course of centuries, or more accurately, copies of the copies of the copies, some 5,366 of them in the Greek language alone, that date from the second century down to the sixteenth. Strikingly, with the exception of the smallest fragments, no two of these copies are exactly alike in their particulars. No one knows how many differences, or variant readings, occur among the surviving witnesses, but they must number in the hundreds of thousands." [The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, Bart Ehrman, pp. 27]
......
written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 19:42:14
Hi Avanza1,
Instead of you putting so much time and efforts SNIFFING at other peoples gardens and DELIBERATELY CALLING THEIR GARDENS OF ROSES AS WEEDS........
For your OWN SOUL SAKE PLEASE RECOGNISE THE WEEDS GROWN IN YOUR OWN GARDEN…..
SEE BELOW WHAT EMINENT CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS SAY ABOU
“ THE HOLY BIBLE “
ORIGINAL COPIES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT :
The original copies of the NT have LONG DISAPPEARED, hence the NT is being restored (obviously because it is CORRUPT !) from imperfect mass of conflicting manuscripts:
"Since - like virtually all ancient literature - no autographs are extant for the NT, its most likely original text must be reconstructed from these imperfect, often widely divergent, later copies." [David Noel Freedman (Ed.), The Anchor Bible Dictionary On CD-ROM, (Under Textual Criticism, NT).]
Another admission:
"The original copies of the NT books have, of course, long since disappeared. This fact should not cause surprise. In the first place, they were written on papyrus, a very fragile and perishable material. In the second place, and probably of even more importance, the original copies of the NT books were not looked upon as scripture by those of the early Christian communities." [George Arthur Buttrick (Ed.), The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible, Volume 1, pp. 599 (Under Text, NT).]
The celebrated NT scholar, Bruce Metzger, admits:-
"The necessity of applying textual criticism to the books of the New Testament arises from two circumstances: (a) none of the original documents is extant, and (b) the existing copies differ from one another. The textual critic seeks to ascertain from the divergent copies which form of the text should be regarded as most nearly conforming to the original." [Bruce M. Metzger's "The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption and Restoration", 1964]
Bart Ehram states Christians saw no reason to preserve their originals:-
"...the early Christians evidently saw no need to preserve their original texts for antiquarian or other reasons. Had they been more fully cognizant of what happens to documents that are copied by hand, however, especially by hands that are not professionally trained for the job, they may have exercised greater caution in preserving the originals. As it is, for whatever historical reasons, the originals no longer survive. What do survive are copies of the originals, or, to be more precise, copies made from the copies of the copies of the originals, thousands of these subsequent copies, dating from the 2nd to the 16th centuries, some of them tiny fragments the size of a credit card, uncovered in garbage heaps buried in the sands of Egypt, others of them enormous and elegant tomes preserved in the great libraries and monasteries of Europe." ["Text and Tradition: The Role of New Testament Manuscripts in Early Christian Studies." The Kenneth W. Clark Lectures Duke Divinity School 1997 Lecture One: "Text and Interpretation: The Exegetical Significance of the "Original" Text" Delivered by Bart Ehram]
Bart Ehram also states:
"In any event, none of [the original manuscripts of the books of the Bible] now survive. What do survive are copies made over the course of centuries, or more accurately, copies of the copies of the copies, some 5,366 of them in the Greek language alone, that date from the second century down to the sixteenth. Strikingly, with the exception of the smallest fragments, no two of these copies are exactly alike in their particulars. No one knows how many differences, or variant readings, occur among the surviving witnesses, but they must number in the hundreds of thousands." [The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, Bart Ehrman, pp. 27]
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written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 17:42:42
Hi Avanza1
After the debate on RESURRECTION, we shall debate on the following :
01)TRINITY – IS JESUS GOD
02)THE COMING OF THE FINAL PROPHET….as prophesied in
A.John 1:19/21-25
B.Deutronomy 18:18
C.Isaiah 29:12
Condition :
01) I cannot use references from the Qur An.
I am giving you advance notice.. to prepare for an intellectual debate
I have voluntarily put the above condition.
I hope this will make you comfortable and assured that I have now tied myself up and.....at your mercy....!!
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 17:42:42
Hi Avanza1
After the debate on RESURRECTION, we shall debate on the following :
01)TRINITY – IS JESUS GOD
02)THE COMING OF THE FINAL PROPHET….as prophesied in
A.John 1:19/21-25
B.Deutronomy 18:18
C.Isaiah 29:12
Condition :
01) I cannot use references from the Qur An.
I am giving you advance notice.. to prepare for an intellectual debate
I have voluntarily put the above condition.
I hope this will make you comfortable and assured that I have now tied myself up and.....at your mercy....!!
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 12:31:33
written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 | 22:47:41
The second time I posted the quran contradiction, someone else warn me of Al Qaeda road side bombs. Hope you won't be another one of them.
........................................................
“ you are not so great “..... Golda Meir
.........................
written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 12:31:33
written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 | 22:47:41
The second time I posted the quran contradiction, someone else warn me of Al Qaeda road side bombs. Hope you won't be another one of them.
........................................................
“ you are not so great “..... Golda Meir
.........................
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written by Panca Indera, February 09, 2008 07:47:01
written by Panca Indera, February 09, 2008 07:47:01
Dear Tojo
>>Especially for Panca Indera,
www.aididsafar.com
You think I'm Tojo enough to fall for your tricks!
If you are man enough and have balls you will spit it out on this thread!
Oink! Oink!
>>Especially for Panca Indera,
www.aididsafar.com
You think I'm Tojo enough to fall for your tricks!
If you are man enough and have balls you will spit it out on this thread!
Oink! Oink!
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written by Panca Indera, February 09, 2008 07:43:01
written by Panca Indera, February 09, 2008 07:43:01
Dear Mimag2005
Thanks for the invitation, You are more than capable to handle the situation.
However I see our friend has gave different meaning of idolaters, unbelievers, disbelievers and hypocrites as used in the Quran.
This can be misleading and dangerous because it could corrupt the meaning of the verses to justify his cause. I can prove beyond any reasonable doubt that this is the case. One example is enough: refer below
>>â€ÂThe Qur'an calls Christians idolaters and unbelievers [9:28-33], but still allows Muslims to marry Christian women [5:5]. “
The correct and accepted translation of 9:28-33
[9.28] O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
---------------------------------------------------------
Now, nowhere in the above verses did Allah named Christians and Jews as Idolaters. Allah called Jews and Christians, disbelievers because they choose not to believe in the Quran.(nowhere in the Quran are Jews and Christians refered as idolaters only disbelievers)
Idolaters: are people who pray or worship Idols (It is usually defined as worship of any cult image, idea, or object, as opposed to the worship of a God.). Do Jews and Christians pray to Idols? No!(share the Same God with slight variations in beliefs)
The Quran allows Muslim men to marry women from the people of the Book.( Not vice versa.). However Islam forbid Muslim men marrying women who worship Idols (idolators). Make perfect sense.Why?
Since the children follow the religion of their fathers, therefore they will be Muslims. Even if they decide to follow the religion of their mothers, they still belief in God, albeit differently.
However if a Muslim man marrys an idolatress, and the children follow the religion of the idolatress mother. That is not allowed.
I think it is best to be aware of the danger of such postings and warn others of the threat it poses to the unschooled or weak in beliefs.
Salam
Thanks for the invitation, You are more than capable to handle the situation.
However I see our friend has gave different meaning of idolaters, unbelievers, disbelievers and hypocrites as used in the Quran.
This can be misleading and dangerous because it could corrupt the meaning of the verses to justify his cause. I can prove beyond any reasonable doubt that this is the case. One example is enough: refer below
>>â€ÂThe Qur'an calls Christians idolaters and unbelievers [9:28-33], but still allows Muslims to marry Christian women [5:5]. “
The correct and accepted translation of 9:28-33
[9.28] O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
---------------------------------------------------------
Now, nowhere in the above verses did Allah named Christians and Jews as Idolaters. Allah called Jews and Christians, disbelievers because they choose not to believe in the Quran.(nowhere in the Quran are Jews and Christians refered as idolaters only disbelievers)
Idolaters: are people who pray or worship Idols (It is usually defined as worship of any cult image, idea, or object, as opposed to the worship of a God.). Do Jews and Christians pray to Idols? No!(share the Same God with slight variations in beliefs)
The Quran allows Muslim men to marry women from the people of the Book.( Not vice versa.). However Islam forbid Muslim men marrying women who worship Idols (idolators). Make perfect sense.Why?
Since the children follow the religion of their fathers, therefore they will be Muslims. Even if they decide to follow the religion of their mothers, they still belief in God, albeit differently.
However if a Muslim man marrys an idolatress, and the children follow the religion of the idolatress mother. That is not allowed.
I think it is best to be aware of the danger of such postings and warn others of the threat it poses to the unschooled or weak in beliefs.
Salam
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written by Admiral Tojo, February 09, 2008 04:57:07
written by Admiral Tojo, February 09, 2008 04:57:07
Especially for Panca Indera,
www.aididsafar.com
Shalom
www.aididsafar.com
Shalom
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written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 04:47:56
written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 04:47:56
Hi Panca Indera,
written by Panca Indera, February 08, 2008 | 22:47:47
Dear Mimag2005,
Luncai terjun dengan labu2-nya, biarkan, biarkan!
..............................
Nak turun padang sama2 ?
Thanks anycase.
...............
written by Panca Indera, February 08, 2008 | 22:47:47
Dear Mimag2005,
Luncai terjun dengan labu2-nya, biarkan, biarkan!
..............................
Nak turun padang sama2 ?
Thanks anycase.
...............
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written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 00:12:00
Hi Avanza1,
I’m now in your home ground.
Go! Call all your forces.
Don’t worry...I did not bring an army...even my Rambo dagger left at home..
I only have The ONE INDIVISIBLE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD for company.
We shall debate on one of Pauline Christianity’s MAIN ENGINE,,, “ RESURRECTION â€Â...
Re : RESURRECTION
..................
According to Paul…. and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.1 COR CH 15 : 14 .
So...NO RESURRECTION......means......NO CHRISTIANITY....!!!
1,800,000,000 Christians believe that Jesus was crucified and RESURRECTED ON THE THIRD DAY.
Such a MAJOR DOCTRINE...SURELY MUST HAVE MANY PROPHESIES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT CONCERNING THE RESURRECTION.....
WHY MUST THERE BE SUCH A PROPHESY IN THE OLD TESTAMENT...???......because an ordinary event like....
.......JESUS SITTING ON AN ASS was prophesied in the Old Testament.....
Zech Ch 9 : 9… Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and RIDING UPON AN ASS, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Was this prophesy fulfilled…? Lets see what the 4 “God Inspired “ Gospels got to say….
John 12 : 14…. And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,…
Matt Ch 21 : 5 .. Tell ye the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting
upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
Luke 19 : 35…And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.
Mark Ch 11 : 7…. And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him.
This ASS PROPHESY will not bring salvation to the Christians,YET...!!
5 “ God Inspired BOOKS “ recorded it.
So Avanza......
Please show where in the Old Testament AT LEAST ONE PROPHESY about Jesus Resurrection on the Third Day...!!
.......
written by mimag2005, February 09, 2008 00:12:00
Hi Avanza1,
I’m now in your home ground.
Go! Call all your forces.
Don’t worry...I did not bring an army...even my Rambo dagger left at home..
I only have The ONE INDIVISIBLE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD for company.
We shall debate on one of Pauline Christianity’s MAIN ENGINE,,, “ RESURRECTION â€Â...
Re : RESURRECTION
..................
According to Paul…. and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.1 COR CH 15 : 14 .
So...NO RESURRECTION......means......NO CHRISTIANITY....!!!
1,800,000,000 Christians believe that Jesus was crucified and RESURRECTED ON THE THIRD DAY.
Such a MAJOR DOCTRINE...SURELY MUST HAVE MANY PROPHESIES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT CONCERNING THE RESURRECTION.....
WHY MUST THERE BE SUCH A PROPHESY IN THE OLD TESTAMENT...???......because an ordinary event like....
.......JESUS SITTING ON AN ASS was prophesied in the Old Testament.....
Zech Ch 9 : 9… Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and RIDING UPON AN ASS, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Was this prophesy fulfilled…? Lets see what the 4 “God Inspired “ Gospels got to say….
John 12 : 14…. And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,…
Matt Ch 21 : 5 .. Tell ye the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting
upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
Luke 19 : 35…And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.
Mark Ch 11 : 7…. And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him.
This ASS PROPHESY will not bring salvation to the Christians,YET...!!
5 “ God Inspired BOOKS “ recorded it.
So Avanza......
Please show where in the Old Testament AT LEAST ONE PROPHESY about Jesus Resurrection on the Third Day...!!
.......
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written by mimag2005, February 08, 2008 21:21:20
Hi Avanza,
written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 | 22:47:4
If you read it in English there is no indication or mention the world is flat.
..........................................................................
If theres vacuum between the ears...no need to advertise...!!!
Which Cikgu taught you sphere got 4 corners....????
Always remember what you posted here, is it make God/Allah happy or are you making Satan/Syaitan happy.
.............................
Tell you what, go and face the mirror.. and tell to that person.. I have made irresponsible allegations and LIES against the Qur An....
I am following the footsteps of my Leader Paul....whom Jesus the Messiah call A MURDERER , LIAR AND FATHER OF LIES (John Ch 8 v 44)...
One other thing we have many unfinished biz with the Bible....Don’t try to impress
or divert with quotes from the Qur An.... It wont work.....!!
I come to your home ground. I will take you or anyone , combine also can, from Christendom on the resurrection, trinity, paraclete etc.
....Remember you drew “ FIRST BLOOD “....!!!
“ RAMBO “
..............
written by mimag2005, February 08, 2008 21:21:20
Hi Avanza,
written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 | 22:47:4
If you read it in English there is no indication or mention the world is flat.
..........................................................................
If theres vacuum between the ears...no need to advertise...!!!
Which Cikgu taught you sphere got 4 corners....????
Always remember what you posted here, is it make God/Allah happy or are you making Satan/Syaitan happy.
.............................
Tell you what, go and face the mirror.. and tell to that person.. I have made irresponsible allegations and LIES against the Qur An....
I am following the footsteps of my Leader Paul....whom Jesus the Messiah call A MURDERER , LIAR AND FATHER OF LIES (John Ch 8 v 44)...
One other thing we have many unfinished biz with the Bible....Don’t try to impress
or divert with quotes from the Qur An.... It wont work.....!!
I come to your home ground. I will take you or anyone , combine also can, from Christendom on the resurrection, trinity, paraclete etc.
....Remember you drew “ FIRST BLOOD “....!!!
“ RAMBO “
..............
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written by mimag2005, February 08, 2008 20:33:27
Hi PROFESSOR Avanza1,
Very good morning ! Glad to note you are back !
01)
written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 | 02:12:10
written by Avanza1, February 06, 2008 | 01:39:14
If the muslims show sura 86.005-007, they will laugh their heads off and would agree something is not in place about the quran. Guys please be aware, they are not showing all about quran. There are hidden cards….
I dont get your joke... you mean you creted from toddy juice or what...?
What has your Christian Bible got to say about creation of man..??
What has you Christian Bible got to say about the shape of Earth ...???
02)written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 | 22:33:20
written by mimag2005, February 08, 2008 | 11:52:22
01) What is not in place...? Rambutans
02) What is the correct answer...? Rambutans
After more than 2 days consultation with your Trinity Gods ,ALL OF YOU could only managed a Rambutan answer...????
Your Gods seem to like fruits very much. I will prepare another post where will combine your rambutans with other fruits mentioned in Bible to make a “DIVINE FRUIT SALAD “...!!!
In the meantime you and your Trinity Gods understanding ON HUMAN EGG FERTILIZATION is similar to the Elementary School Dropout Cleaners at Pasar Pudu..!!
Let me tell you why...
At Tariq CH 86 V 5-7
[5] Now let man but think from what he is created!
[6] He is created from a drop emitted,
[7] Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:
The Quran does not use the word ‘sperm’, nor the word ‘semen’, nor does it say anything about the production of semen or sperm.
The emphasis is clearly on the word ‘daafiq’, the surging, the welling out, the pouring forth, the shedding, and the flowing out of the fluid.
It says simply that man is created from the liquid that is ejaculated. During coitus that liquid springs from the abdomen (“between the ribcage and the spineâ€Â). ..Or you can say…during coitus semen is ejaculated from the two storage areas called the SEMINAL VESICLES..... and NOT FROM AVANZA AND HIS GODs RAMBUTANS...!!
This is a scientific fac.....!!!
Therefore the statement of the Qur An is absolutely correct!
For the benefit of other bloggers.. let me elaborate further…
SEMINAL VESICLES
...............
The seminal vesicles are anterior to the sacrum and coccyx (lower back, loin) and the ribs are anterior to the seminal vesicles.
If one was to draw a line from the tip of the coccyx, to the upper portion of the seminal vesicle, either one of the two, and extend the line forward it will catch the ribcage.
The seminal vesicles from which the semen spurts out during coitus, lies between the ribs and the coccyx!
SEMEN
........
The semen contains many things. Between 95 to 98% of it consists of fructose, prostaglandin hormones, metal and salt ions, lipids, steroid hormones, enzymes, basic amines, and amino acids.
ALL THOSE ARE PRODUCED FROM THE GLANDS LOCATED IN ABDOMEN.
Between 2 to 5% of it consists of the sperms produced in the testicles.
Does Avanza’s Rambutans produce SEMEN...?
........................................
Semen DOES NOT COME from the testicles, period! It is neither produced in the testicles, nor does it come from the testicles during the time of coitus!
Can the Sperm alone fertilize the human ovum...?
.............................................
Sperm alone cannot even move very well. They need energy to swim to the egg and penetrate it. That is provided by fructose, a sugar produced by the seminal vesicles.
Prostaglandin hormones are needed to suppress an immune response by the female against the foreign semen.
Zinc is needed to stabilize the DNA of the sperms
Metal and salt ions are needed to make the pH of the vaginal cavity favorable for the sperm to survive.
Lipids, steroid hormones, enzymes, basic amines, and amino acids are also needed to perform vital functions.
The ejaculated fluid has all that is needed, including the sperms (2-5% sperms, 95-98% other ingredients).
Bloggers, I hope above explanation is satisfactory. Don’t believe Avanza and his divine gurus version that semen produced from rambutans....a confused bunch of rambutans indeed....!!!
...When TRUTH SURFACE.......FALSEHOOD CRUMBLE LIKE DUST....!!!
written by mimag2005, February 08, 2008 20:33:27
Hi PROFESSOR Avanza1,
Very good morning ! Glad to note you are back !
01)
written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 | 02:12:10
written by Avanza1, February 06, 2008 | 01:39:14
If the muslims show sura 86.005-007, they will laugh their heads off and would agree something is not in place about the quran. Guys please be aware, they are not showing all about quran. There are hidden cards….
I dont get your joke... you mean you creted from toddy juice or what...?
What has your Christian Bible got to say about creation of man..??
What has you Christian Bible got to say about the shape of Earth ...???
02)written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 | 22:33:20
written by mimag2005, February 08, 2008 | 11:52:22
01) What is not in place...? Rambutans
02) What is the correct answer...? Rambutans
After more than 2 days consultation with your Trinity Gods ,ALL OF YOU could only managed a Rambutan answer...????
Your Gods seem to like fruits very much. I will prepare another post where will combine your rambutans with other fruits mentioned in Bible to make a “DIVINE FRUIT SALAD “...!!!
In the meantime you and your Trinity Gods understanding ON HUMAN EGG FERTILIZATION is similar to the Elementary School Dropout Cleaners at Pasar Pudu..!!
Let me tell you why...
At Tariq CH 86 V 5-7
[5] Now let man but think from what he is created!
[6] He is created from a drop emitted,
[7] Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:
The Quran does not use the word ‘sperm’, nor the word ‘semen’, nor does it say anything about the production of semen or sperm.
The emphasis is clearly on the word ‘daafiq’, the surging, the welling out, the pouring forth, the shedding, and the flowing out of the fluid.
It says simply that man is created from the liquid that is ejaculated. During coitus that liquid springs from the abdomen (“between the ribcage and the spineâ€Â). ..Or you can say…during coitus semen is ejaculated from the two storage areas called the SEMINAL VESICLES..... and NOT FROM AVANZA AND HIS GODs RAMBUTANS...!!
This is a scientific fac.....!!!
Therefore the statement of the Qur An is absolutely correct!
For the benefit of other bloggers.. let me elaborate further…
SEMINAL VESICLES
...............
The seminal vesicles are anterior to the sacrum and coccyx (lower back, loin) and the ribs are anterior to the seminal vesicles.
If one was to draw a line from the tip of the coccyx, to the upper portion of the seminal vesicle, either one of the two, and extend the line forward it will catch the ribcage.
The seminal vesicles from which the semen spurts out during coitus, lies between the ribs and the coccyx!
SEMEN
........
The semen contains many things. Between 95 to 98% of it consists of fructose, prostaglandin hormones, metal and salt ions, lipids, steroid hormones, enzymes, basic amines, and amino acids.
ALL THOSE ARE PRODUCED FROM THE GLANDS LOCATED IN ABDOMEN.
Between 2 to 5% of it consists of the sperms produced in the testicles.
Does Avanza’s Rambutans produce SEMEN...?
........................................
Semen DOES NOT COME from the testicles, period! It is neither produced in the testicles, nor does it come from the testicles during the time of coitus!
Can the Sperm alone fertilize the human ovum...?
.............................................
Sperm alone cannot even move very well. They need energy to swim to the egg and penetrate it. That is provided by fructose, a sugar produced by the seminal vesicles.
Prostaglandin hormones are needed to suppress an immune response by the female against the foreign semen.
Zinc is needed to stabilize the DNA of the sperms
Metal and salt ions are needed to make the pH of the vaginal cavity favorable for the sperm to survive.
Lipids, steroid hormones, enzymes, basic amines, and amino acids are also needed to perform vital functions.
The ejaculated fluid has all that is needed, including the sperms (2-5% sperms, 95-98% other ingredients).
Bloggers, I hope above explanation is satisfactory. Don’t believe Avanza and his divine gurus version that semen produced from rambutans....a confused bunch of rambutans indeed....!!!
...When TRUTH SURFACE.......FALSEHOOD CRUMBLE LIKE DUST....!!!
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written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 15:03:33
written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 15:03:33
# Did the Meccan Polytheist Believe That Allah Was The Supreme Being?
# To Intercede or Not To Intercede? - That is the Question! The Qur'an makes contradictory statements whether on the Day of Judgment intercession will be possible. No: [2:122-123, 254; 6:51; 82:18-19; etc.]. Yes: [20:109; 34:23; 43:86; 53:26; etc.]. Each position can be further supported by ahadith.
# Where is Allah and his throne? Allah is nearer than the jugular vein [50:16], but he is also on the throne [57:4] which is upon the water [11:7], and at the same time so far away, that it takes between 1,000 and 50,000 years to reach him [32:5, 70:4].
# The origin of calamity? Is the evil in our life from Satan [38:41], Ourselves [4:79], or Allah [4:78]?
# How merciful is Allah's mercy? He has prescribed mercy for himself [6:12], yet he does not guide some, even though he could [6:35, 14:4].
# Does Allah command to do evil? No [7:28, 16:90]. Yes [17:16, ]. Two examples are also given, where Allah clearly commanded or permitted indecent actions [2:229-230, 2:187].
# Should Muhammad Get Paid Or Shouldn’t He?
# Will there be inquiry in Paradise? "neither will they question one another" [23:101] but nevertheless they will be "engaging in mutual inquiry" [52:25], "and they will ... question one another" [37:27].
# Are angels protectors? "NO protector besides Allah" [2:107, 29:22]. But in Sura 41:31 the angels themselves say: "We are your protectors in this life and the Hereafter." And also in other suras is their role described as guarding [13:11, 50:17-18] and protecting [82:10].
# Is Allah the only Wali? On the one hand, Allah is supposedly the only wali (protector, helper, friend) [9:116, 17:111, 32:4, 42:28], on the other hand, the messenger and the believers are walis [5:55, 9:71], Allah has walis [10:62], and he raises walis [4:75].
# To Intercede or Not To Intercede? - That is the Question! The Qur'an makes contradictory statements whether on the Day of Judgment intercession will be possible. No: [2:122-123, 254; 6:51; 82:18-19; etc.]. Yes: [20:109; 34:23; 43:86; 53:26; etc.]. Each position can be further supported by ahadith.
# Where is Allah and his throne? Allah is nearer than the jugular vein [50:16], but he is also on the throne [57:4] which is upon the water [11:7], and at the same time so far away, that it takes between 1,000 and 50,000 years to reach him [32:5, 70:4].
# The origin of calamity? Is the evil in our life from Satan [38:41], Ourselves [4:79], or Allah [4:78]?
# How merciful is Allah's mercy? He has prescribed mercy for himself [6:12], yet he does not guide some, even though he could [6:35, 14:4].
# Does Allah command to do evil? No [7:28, 16:90]. Yes [17:16, ]. Two examples are also given, where Allah clearly commanded or permitted indecent actions [2:229-230, 2:187].
# Should Muhammad Get Paid Or Shouldn’t He?
# Will there be inquiry in Paradise? "neither will they question one another" [23:101] but nevertheless they will be "engaging in mutual inquiry" [52:25], "and they will ... question one another" [37:27].
# Are angels protectors? "NO protector besides Allah" [2:107, 29:22]. But in Sura 41:31 the angels themselves say: "We are your protectors in this life and the Hereafter." And also in other suras is their role described as guarding [13:11, 50:17-18] and protecting [82:10].
# Is Allah the only Wali? On the one hand, Allah is supposedly the only wali (protector, helper, friend) [9:116, 17:111, 32:4, 42:28], on the other hand, the messenger and the believers are walis [5:55, 9:71], Allah has walis [10:62], and he raises walis [4:75].
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written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 15:01:00
written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 15:01:00
# How many angels were talking to Mary? When the Qur'an speaks about the announciation of the birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary, Sura 3:42,45 speaks about (several) angels while it is only one in Sura 19:17-21. (This article has received many Muslim responses which are quoted or linked and/or discussed at the end of the article.)
# Further numerical discrepancies Does Allah's day equal to 1,000 human years (Sura 22:47, 32:5) or 50,000 human years (Sura 70:4)? --- According to Sura 56:7 there will be THREE distinct groups of people at the Last Judgement, but 90:18-19, 99:6-8, etc. mention only TWO groups. --- There are conflicting views on who takes the souls at death: THE Angel of Death [32:11], THE angels (plural) [47:27] but also "It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death." [39:42] Angels have 2, 3, or 4 pairs of wings [35:1]; but Gabriel had 600 wings. [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 455]
# How many days did Allah need to destroy the people of Aad? One day [54:19] or several days [41:16; 69:6,7]
# Six or eight days of creation? Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days. (This topic also includes many Muslim responses and further discussion.)
# Quick or Slow Creation? Allah creates the heavens and the earth in six days [7:54] and many Muslims want to be modern and scientific, and make that six eons, but then again, He creates instantaneously [2:117], "Be! And it is".
# Heavens or Earth? Which was created first? First earth and then heaven [2:29], heaven and after that earth [79:27-30].
# Calling together or ripping apart? In the process of creation heaven and earth were first apart and are called to come together [41:11], while 21:30 states that they were originally one piece and then ripped apart.
# What was man created from? A blood clot [96:1-2], water [21:30, 24:45, 25:54], "sounding" (i.e. burned) clay [15:26], dust [3:59, 30:20, 35:11], nothing [19:67] and this is then denied in 52:35, earth [11:61], a drop of thickened fluid [16:4, 75:37]
# Fully Detailed Or Incomplete? The Qur'an claims for itself to be (fully) detailed, that nothing is left out of the book [6:38, 6:114, 12:111, 16:89 etc.]. However there are plenty of important issues which are left unclear in the Qur'an. This article discusses the confusion found in the quranic statements on wine.
# Worshiping the Same or a Different God? Muhammad is commanded to speak to the disbelievers: ... nor do you worship what I worship [109:3]. However, other verses in the Qur'an state clearly that those disbelieving his message are in fact worshiping the same God, Allah.
# Further numerical discrepancies Does Allah's day equal to 1,000 human years (Sura 22:47, 32:5) or 50,000 human years (Sura 70:4)? --- According to Sura 56:7 there will be THREE distinct groups of people at the Last Judgement, but 90:18-19, 99:6-8, etc. mention only TWO groups. --- There are conflicting views on who takes the souls at death: THE Angel of Death [32:11], THE angels (plural) [47:27] but also "It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death." [39:42] Angels have 2, 3, or 4 pairs of wings [35:1]; but Gabriel had 600 wings. [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 455]
# How many days did Allah need to destroy the people of Aad? One day [54:19] or several days [41:16; 69:6,7]
# Six or eight days of creation? Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days. (This topic also includes many Muslim responses and further discussion.)
# Quick or Slow Creation? Allah creates the heavens and the earth in six days [7:54] and many Muslims want to be modern and scientific, and make that six eons, but then again, He creates instantaneously [2:117], "Be! And it is".
# Heavens or Earth? Which was created first? First earth and then heaven [2:29], heaven and after that earth [79:27-30].
# Calling together or ripping apart? In the process of creation heaven and earth were first apart and are called to come together [41:11], while 21:30 states that they were originally one piece and then ripped apart.
# What was man created from? A blood clot [96:1-2], water [21:30, 24:45, 25:54], "sounding" (i.e. burned) clay [15:26], dust [3:59, 30:20, 35:11], nothing [19:67] and this is then denied in 52:35, earth [11:61], a drop of thickened fluid [16:4, 75:37]
# Fully Detailed Or Incomplete? The Qur'an claims for itself to be (fully) detailed, that nothing is left out of the book [6:38, 6:114, 12:111, 16:89 etc.]. However there are plenty of important issues which are left unclear in the Qur'an. This article discusses the confusion found in the quranic statements on wine.
# Worshiping the Same or a Different God? Muhammad is commanded to speak to the disbelievers: ... nor do you worship what I worship [109:3]. However, other verses in the Qur'an state clearly that those disbelieving his message are in fact worshiping the same God, Allah.
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written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 15:00:18
written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 15:00:18
# To Marry or Not to Marry? The Qur'an forbids believers to marry idolatrous women [Sura 2:221], and calls Christians idolaters and unbelievers [9:28-33], but still allows Muslims to marry Christian women [5:5].
# Will it be accepted of them or not?
# Will Allah reward the good deeds of Unbelievers? S. 9:17 and 9:69 clearly say no. However, S. 99:7 implies yes. Moreover, S. 2:62 promises Christians reward for their good deeds. But S. 9:28-33; 5:17, 72-73 calls Christians idolaters, and S. 9:17 is very clear that idolaters will have no reward.
# Should Muslims Accept Peace or Not?
# Fighting All People Until They Do What?
# Can They Disbelieve in the Last Day and be Safe?
# Should Muslims show kindness to their parents? On the one hand, the Quran commands all Muslims to show kindness to their parents, even if they are disbelievers [17:23-24, 31:14-15, 29:8, etc.]. On the other hand, it demands not to show any love or friendship to those who oppose Muhammad, even if they are their parents [9:23, 58:22].
# Can one be a believer in God and oppose Muhammad at the same time?
# How many mothers does a Muslim have? Only one [58:2, the woman who gave birth and none else], or two [4:23, including the mother who nursed him], or at least ten [33:6]?
# And it just doesn't add up: Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur'anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate. A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property.
# Will it be accepted of them or not?
# Will Allah reward the good deeds of Unbelievers? S. 9:17 and 9:69 clearly say no. However, S. 99:7 implies yes. Moreover, S. 2:62 promises Christians reward for their good deeds. But S. 9:28-33; 5:17, 72-73 calls Christians idolaters, and S. 9:17 is very clear that idolaters will have no reward.
# Should Muslims Accept Peace or Not?
# Fighting All People Until They Do What?
# Can They Disbelieve in the Last Day and be Safe?
# Should Muslims show kindness to their parents? On the one hand, the Quran commands all Muslims to show kindness to their parents, even if they are disbelievers [17:23-24, 31:14-15, 29:8, etc.]. On the other hand, it demands not to show any love or friendship to those who oppose Muhammad, even if they are their parents [9:23, 58:22].
# Can one be a believer in God and oppose Muhammad at the same time?
# How many mothers does a Muslim have? Only one [58:2, the woman who gave birth and none else], or two [4:23, including the mother who nursed him], or at least ten [33:6]?
# And it just doesn't add up: Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur'anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate. A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property.
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written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 14:56:53
written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 14:56:53
# Who suffers loss if Muhammad was wrong? Sura 34:50 commands Muhammad to say, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss," which is a severe factual error in the Qur'an as well as contradicting the teaching of the Qur'an in a number of other verses.
# Allah, Adam, and the Angels. There are a great number of problems and inconsistencies between the several accounts of Adam's creation, Allah's command to prostrate before Adam, Satans refusal, etc.
# Who Was the First Muslim? Muhammad [6:14, 163], Moses [7:143], some Egyptians [26:51], or Abraham [2:127-133, 3:67] or Adam, the first man who also received inspiration from Allah [2:37]?
# Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord? Yes [S. 53:1-18, 81:15-29], No [6:102-103, 42:51].
# Were Warners Sent to All Mankind Before Muhammad? Allah had supposedly sent warners to every people [10:47, 16:35-36, 35:24], Abraham and Ishmael are specifically claimed to have visited Mecca and built the Kaaba [2:125-129]. Yet, Muhammad supposedly is sent to a people who never had a messenger before [28:46, 32:3, 34:44, 36:2-6]. This article also raises other issues: What about Hud and Salih who supposedly were sent to the Arabs? What about the Book that was supposedly given to Ishmael? Etc.
# What will be the food for the people in Hell? The food for the people in Hell will be only "Dhari" [Sura 88:6], or only foul pus from the washing of wounds [S. 69:36], or will they also get to eat from the tree of Zaqqum [S. 37:66]? Together, these verses constitute three contradictions.
# Can Angels Cause the Death of People? The Qur'an attacks those who worship anyone besides God (e.g. angels or prophets) because those can neither create, nor give life, nor cause anyone to die. Yet, the Qur'an explicitly states that one angel or several angels are causing certain people to die [Sura 4:97, 16:28, 32, 32:11].
# Confusion Concerning Identity of the Spirit and Gabriel (a long discussion of dozens of references)
# 'Iddah rules for divorced and widowed women appear to be arbitrary and inconsistent.
# Is there a minimum age of marriage for girls?
# Allah, Adam, and the Angels. There are a great number of problems and inconsistencies between the several accounts of Adam's creation, Allah's command to prostrate before Adam, Satans refusal, etc.
# Who Was the First Muslim? Muhammad [6:14, 163], Moses [7:143], some Egyptians [26:51], or Abraham [2:127-133, 3:67] or Adam, the first man who also received inspiration from Allah [2:37]?
# Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord? Yes [S. 53:1-18, 81:15-29], No [6:102-103, 42:51].
# Were Warners Sent to All Mankind Before Muhammad? Allah had supposedly sent warners to every people [10:47, 16:35-36, 35:24], Abraham and Ishmael are specifically claimed to have visited Mecca and built the Kaaba [2:125-129]. Yet, Muhammad supposedly is sent to a people who never had a messenger before [28:46, 32:3, 34:44, 36:2-6]. This article also raises other issues: What about Hud and Salih who supposedly were sent to the Arabs? What about the Book that was supposedly given to Ishmael? Etc.
# What will be the food for the people in Hell? The food for the people in Hell will be only "Dhari" [Sura 88:6], or only foul pus from the washing of wounds [S. 69:36], or will they also get to eat from the tree of Zaqqum [S. 37:66]? Together, these verses constitute three contradictions.
# Can Angels Cause the Death of People? The Qur'an attacks those who worship anyone besides God (e.g. angels or prophets) because those can neither create, nor give life, nor cause anyone to die. Yet, the Qur'an explicitly states that one angel or several angels are causing certain people to die [Sura 4:97, 16:28, 32, 32:11].
# Confusion Concerning Identity of the Spirit and Gabriel (a long discussion of dozens of references)
# 'Iddah rules for divorced and widowed women appear to be arbitrary and inconsistent.
# Is there a minimum age of marriage for girls?
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written by Panca Indera, February 08, 2008 14:47:47
written by Panca Indera, February 08, 2008 14:47:47
Dear Mimag2005,
Go to goggle search and find out what Avanza is or means
http://www.avanzausa.com/productinfo/productinfo.cfm?showFlash=yes is
I gave up precisely because of it.
good luck
Luncai terjun dengan labu2-nya, biarkan, biarkan!
Go to goggle search and find out what Avanza is or means
http://www.avanzausa.com/productinfo/productinfo.cfm?showFlash=yes is
I gave up precisely because of it.
good luck
Luncai terjun dengan labu2-nya, biarkan, biarkan!
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written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 14:47:41
written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 14:47:41
Depends on how you read English. You can read it the other way round and twist the meaning, missing the message it wants to convey. Just to suit your mindset. If you read it in English there is no indication or mention the world is flat.
Trying to show contradictions in Bible again. The other time I entered into discussion with Farouk, he give could not give me the answers and wish me good luck to find the answers on the net. The second time I posted the quran contradiction, someone else warn me of Al Qaeda road side bombs. Hope you won't be another one of them.
God is God. If you seek to please God the Allah will reach out to you. Always remember what you posted here, is it make God/Allah happy or are you making Satan/Syaitan happy.
Trying to show contradictions in Bible again. The other time I entered into discussion with Farouk, he give could not give me the answers and wish me good luck to find the answers on the net. The second time I posted the quran contradiction, someone else warn me of Al Qaeda road side bombs. Hope you won't be another one of them.
God is God. If you seek to please God the Allah will reach out to you. Always remember what you posted here, is it make God/Allah happy or are you making Satan/Syaitan happy.
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written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 14:33:20
written by Avanza1, February 08, 2008 14:33:20
written by mimag2005, February 08, 2008 | 11:52:22
01) What is not in place...? Rambutans
02) What is the correct answer...? Rambutans
01) What is not in place...? Rambutans
02) What is the correct answer...? Rambutans
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written by Panca Indera, February 08, 2008 06:08:09
written by Panca Indera, February 08, 2008 06:08:09
Dear OrdinaryMan and Admiral Tojo.
Salam
Latest scientific model suggest that the age of the universe is the time elapsed between the Big Bang and the present day. Current observations suggest that this is about 13.7 billion years, with an uncertainty of about 200 million years.[1]
(KJV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Quran: "Allah created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six days" (7:54) In the Qur'an, “a day†is equated with 50,000 years (70:4), whereas another verse states that "a day in the sight of your Lord is like 1,000 years of your reckoning" (22:47).
At the moment of creating the whole Universe and everything in it, God created Time as well. He expands and contracts time accord to His wish by saying Be! And It is.
Note: Albert Einstein’s theory time and space was presented in1905. The Quran stated the information of time travel 1400 years ago. Will you not believe in HIM.
Back to the Age of the Universe, is 13.7 accurate enough, when the Master Creator controls Time itself?
Ever wonder why everybody in the whole world accept seven days in a week. Not six, not eight or any other numbers?
Ever wonder why there is only 12 months in a year and not any other numbers?
Ever wonder all the planets in the Solar system orbital directions around the sun is the same as the Tawaf, except for only naughty little planet who goes the opposite direction?
Do you think this body suit of (biodegradable design) that enclosed your soul is strong and lasting enough to take you on an eternal journey through space and time?
Of course with His permission nothing is impossible, afterall He makes the rules and He can change the rules.
Go read about Muhammad’s PBUH overnight journey to meet God (Israa Miraj)
That’s one case study of space travel that many people are unaware of.
The first spaceman was Muhammad (1400 years ago) not Yuri Gagarin in(1963). His spaceship was called the “BURAQâ€Â
Read about it at http://www.al-islam.org/al-miraj//7.htm
Admiral Tojo! Next time you go to the bar or pub or just the corner shop to have your beer, ponder seriously whether the purpose of your life on this planet is to drink beer, eat the porker or listen to da bovine excretion feeding your Richard Cranium.
For a person who claims he reads the Quran, do you really understand what you read or is it just to impress others!
OrdinaryMan, This is probably my last post on the subject as you have to find your own God regardless(hope it’s the same one). All the materials are avail on the net and you are intelligent. It has to be a journey of self discovery like Mimag2005 said. We all have to do that. Once you do that, reading the Book becomes easier.I hope you have gain something positive from our exchanges.
Thanks mimag for your contributions.
Tojo, please change that name, its horrible, Get a better name for yourself like Nimble Nimer or Hotty Heineken or Genius Guinness or Orky Porky, or Panglima Pening or Pendekar Petai or Bentara Bentan as long as not Admiral Tojo. Its just not you. Pernah tak dengar somebody say, “Engkau ni Tojo-lahâ€Â
Salam
Salam
Latest scientific model suggest that the age of the universe is the time elapsed between the Big Bang and the present day. Current observations suggest that this is about 13.7 billion years, with an uncertainty of about 200 million years.[1]
(KJV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Quran: "Allah created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six days" (7:54) In the Qur'an, “a day†is equated with 50,000 years (70:4), whereas another verse states that "a day in the sight of your Lord is like 1,000 years of your reckoning" (22:47).
At the moment of creating the whole Universe and everything in it, God created Time as well. He expands and contracts time accord to His wish by saying Be! And It is.
Note: Albert Einstein’s theory time and space was presented in1905. The Quran stated the information of time travel 1400 years ago. Will you not believe in HIM.
Back to the Age of the Universe, is 13.7 accurate enough, when the Master Creator controls Time itself?
Ever wonder why everybody in the whole world accept seven days in a week. Not six, not eight or any other numbers?
Ever wonder why there is only 12 months in a year and not any other numbers?
Ever wonder all the planets in the Solar system orbital directions around the sun is the same as the Tawaf, except for only naughty little planet who goes the opposite direction?
Do you think this body suit of (biodegradable design) that enclosed your soul is strong and lasting enough to take you on an eternal journey through space and time?
Of course with His permission nothing is impossible, afterall He makes the rules and He can change the rules.
Go read about Muhammad’s PBUH overnight journey to meet God (Israa Miraj)
That’s one case study of space travel that many people are unaware of.
The first spaceman was Muhammad (1400 years ago) not Yuri Gagarin in(1963). His spaceship was called the “BURAQâ€Â
Read about it at http://www.al-islam.org/al-miraj//7.htm
Admiral Tojo! Next time you go to the bar or pub or just the corner shop to have your beer, ponder seriously whether the purpose of your life on this planet is to drink beer, eat the porker or listen to da bovine excretion feeding your Richard Cranium.
For a person who claims he reads the Quran, do you really understand what you read or is it just to impress others!
OrdinaryMan, This is probably my last post on the subject as you have to find your own God regardless(hope it’s the same one). All the materials are avail on the net and you are intelligent. It has to be a journey of self discovery like Mimag2005 said. We all have to do that. Once you do that, reading the Book becomes easier.I hope you have gain something positive from our exchanges.
Thanks mimag for your contributions.
Tojo, please change that name, its horrible, Get a better name for yourself like Nimble Nimer or Hotty Heineken or Genius Guinness or Orky Porky, or Panglima Pening or Pendekar Petai or Bentara Bentan as long as not Admiral Tojo. Its just not you. Pernah tak dengar somebody say, “Engkau ni Tojo-lahâ€Â
Salam
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written by mimag2005, February 08, 2008 03:52:22
Hi PROFESSOR Avanza1…!!!
written by Avanza1, February 06, 2008 | 01:39:14
If the muslims show sura 86.005-007, they will laugh their heads off and would agree something is not in place about the quran.
..............................
01) What is not in place...?
02) What is the correct answer...?
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written by mimag2005, February 08, 2008 03:52:22
Hi PROFESSOR Avanza1…!!!
written by Avanza1, February 06, 2008 | 01:39:14
If the muslims show sura 86.005-007, they will laugh their heads off and would agree something is not in place about the quran.
..............................
01) What is not in place...?
02) What is the correct answer...?
.........................
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written by mimag2005, February 07, 2008 21:03:38
Hi Avanza1 !!!
written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 | 02:26:24
written by Avanza1, February 06, 2008 | 01:20:37
All the scientific miracles are copied from prior/same period of civilization. It is shameful to claim it as Quranic scientific miracles.....
.................................
I guess you must be referring to my earlier post.
.... can you please present your PROOFS..??....
......................
Avanza1,
01)Let it be known that you have made a SERIOUS ALLEGATION AGAINST THE QUR’AN WITHOUT PROOFS....
02)YOU, AS A CHRISTIAN have a MORAL DUTY AND RESPONSIBILITY towards your “ PAULINE CHURCH “ AND FELLOW CHRISTIAN BROTHERHOOD OF 1.8 BILLION to produce the SAID PROOFS
03)If you choose to remain silent,,,,then….you are no better than your LEADER, PAUL THE 13TH SELF APPOINTED APOSTLE, Founder of Pauline Christianity…WHO WITHOUT SHAME OPENLY DECLARE FOR POSTERITY THAT HIS PREACHINGS WERE BASED ON LIES AND PRETENSES.. as in …..
Rom Ch 3 : 7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded THROUGH MY LIE unto his glory……
P’lipians Ch 1 : 18 What then? notwithstanding, EVERY WAY, whether IN PRETENSE, or in truth , Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Have it your way....!!!!
...................
written by mimag2005, February 07, 2008 21:03:38
Hi Avanza1 !!!
written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 | 02:26:24
written by Avanza1, February 06, 2008 | 01:20:37
All the scientific miracles are copied from prior/same period of civilization. It is shameful to claim it as Quranic scientific miracles.....
.................................
I guess you must be referring to my earlier post.
.... can you please present your PROOFS..??....
......................
Avanza1,
01)Let it be known that you have made a SERIOUS ALLEGATION AGAINST THE QUR’AN WITHOUT PROOFS....
02)YOU, AS A CHRISTIAN have a MORAL DUTY AND RESPONSIBILITY towards your “ PAULINE CHURCH “ AND FELLOW CHRISTIAN BROTHERHOOD OF 1.8 BILLION to produce the SAID PROOFS
03)If you choose to remain silent,,,,then….you are no better than your LEADER, PAUL THE 13TH SELF APPOINTED APOSTLE, Founder of Pauline Christianity…WHO WITHOUT SHAME OPENLY DECLARE FOR POSTERITY THAT HIS PREACHINGS WERE BASED ON LIES AND PRETENSES.. as in …..
Rom Ch 3 : 7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded THROUGH MY LIE unto his glory……
P’lipians Ch 1 : 18 What then? notwithstanding, EVERY WAY, whether IN PRETENSE, or in truth , Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Have it your way....!!!!
...................
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written by Panca Indera, February 07, 2008 16:45:00
written by Panca Indera, February 07, 2008 16:45:00
Dear OrdinaryMan
>>Unfortunately I can never be sure.
You have doubts, because you don’t trust your heart. You do not trust your heart because your heart has not received His light. Its still dark in there. The First step of redemption is to admit your weakness and pray to the Creator of the whole universe, sincerely for guidance. Be humble in your prayer like a slave asking pardon to the Owner. You can challenge Him by posing the question that, “ if You truly exist than guide me as I need your guidance. You will not be disappointed. But you have to be honest and sincere in your request. Don’t play, play. Mimag2005 already shared his experience.
Does the Koran specifically mention one has to DIE? I don’t remember the bible saying that one has to die to achieve eternal life. A temporary life may mean a temporary physical life. To be more specific, do you think (seriously) that one can evolve from a physical life to a spiritual life without death? Can you tell me more about Prophet Idris?
Slow down, Don’t try to rush everything in one go. Observe the ant! How it communicates?
See the beautiful butterfly transformed from an ugly caterpillar. Look inside yourself , how harmoniously all the different organs and cells function in balance doing everything to keep you alive and well. Do you not see or ask why?
Don’t give me the bullshit of things happens by itself! Everything has a reason.
Do you realize that our hearts beat in a consistent rhythm without any external command although it is just a set of muscles. Who is in control there?
This physical form that you and I have is “Alive†but not “life itself†You take the consciousness away, You become a “vegetableâ€Â, you take the motor nerves(total paralysis like the late Christopher Reeves(May he rest inpeace)) you are a physically a vegetable.
What I am saying is, there is no permanence in this world or life(He designed it that way. You can accept it or you don’t period). We all started life as a zygote and end as dead meat anyway. Only the spirit moves on to the next level or dimension until the appointed time when it will be re-united.
This whole contraption and everything in it, were/are created just to test how smart or stupid man can really be. ( sometimes I think God must be laughing his head off (just an expression, I don’t really mean He is actually doing it) watching how man makes a fool of himself.
Our existence on this planet is simply to be tested of our character, spirituality and conscience in handling the material challenges of this life and our mental strength to discard falsehood and accept eternal Truth and Righteousness.
Let the Journey begins, if you are ready for the challenge!
Mimag2005, kawabanga!!! May the Force be with you.
note: as for the story on Prophet Idris(enoch) look it up yourself
>>Unfortunately I can never be sure.
You have doubts, because you don’t trust your heart. You do not trust your heart because your heart has not received His light. Its still dark in there. The First step of redemption is to admit your weakness and pray to the Creator of the whole universe, sincerely for guidance. Be humble in your prayer like a slave asking pardon to the Owner. You can challenge Him by posing the question that, “ if You truly exist than guide me as I need your guidance. You will not be disappointed. But you have to be honest and sincere in your request. Don’t play, play. Mimag2005 already shared his experience.
Does the Koran specifically mention one has to DIE? I don’t remember the bible saying that one has to die to achieve eternal life. A temporary life may mean a temporary physical life. To be more specific, do you think (seriously) that one can evolve from a physical life to a spiritual life without death? Can you tell me more about Prophet Idris?
Slow down, Don’t try to rush everything in one go. Observe the ant! How it communicates?
See the beautiful butterfly transformed from an ugly caterpillar. Look inside yourself , how harmoniously all the different organs and cells function in balance doing everything to keep you alive and well. Do you not see or ask why?
Don’t give me the bullshit of things happens by itself! Everything has a reason.
Do you realize that our hearts beat in a consistent rhythm without any external command although it is just a set of muscles. Who is in control there?
This physical form that you and I have is “Alive†but not “life itself†You take the consciousness away, You become a “vegetableâ€Â, you take the motor nerves(total paralysis like the late Christopher Reeves(May he rest inpeace)) you are a physically a vegetable.
What I am saying is, there is no permanence in this world or life(He designed it that way. You can accept it or you don’t period). We all started life as a zygote and end as dead meat anyway. Only the spirit moves on to the next level or dimension until the appointed time when it will be re-united.
This whole contraption and everything in it, were/are created just to test how smart or stupid man can really be. ( sometimes I think God must be laughing his head off (just an expression, I don’t really mean He is actually doing it) watching how man makes a fool of himself.
Our existence on this planet is simply to be tested of our character, spirituality and conscience in handling the material challenges of this life and our mental strength to discard falsehood and accept eternal Truth and Righteousness.
Let the Journey begins, if you are ready for the challenge!
Mimag2005, kawabanga!!! May the Force be with you.
note: as for the story on Prophet Idris(enoch) look it up yourself
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written by mimag2005, February 07, 2008 07:16:54
Hi Ordinaryman n Panca,
Good day !
Read your recent posts...hope you guys don’t mind me nudging in...
I cud emphatise with Ordinaryman. I was in similar state several years ago,,,
01)Inner Restlessness...many questions...no suitable answers...
02)When the right answers came along...cud’nt accept...due to prejudice
thinking...not wanting to sacrifice present materialistic lifestyle, peer
group pressure, family commitments etc...etc...
03)Did this and that but....still inside churning....
04)Finally...turn to spiritual...an inside voice spoke....“Right Decisionâ€Â...
05)We must recognize that we need help...SO....no room for EGO......
........“ WE MUST STRIP OURSELVES BARE.. AKIN TO A BEGGAR..!!!....
06)We CONTINUOUSLY BEG The CREATOR....who created the Heavens, Earth and ALL
other Creations including ourselves...to guide us and show us The TRUE WAY!
07)Which religion to follow...to gain spiritual enlightenment...?
0All Religion with Scriptures claim that theirs is the right path to GOD,
TRUTH and ETERNAL LIFE.
09)With an unbias mind.. list down the major religions which possess
Scriptures
10)Pose these questions to the respective Elders....
........Are your Scriptures still available in its ORIGINAL LANGUAGE...?
........Are there any changes/modifications made to the ORIGINAL MESSAGES...?
11)You will be very, very surprised to learn that with just these 2 questions
put forward, most of the major religions fail the test.
12)Now you are in an informed position to identify which Scriptures
remain.....having its Original Language and PURE MESSAGE.
13)Give thanks and praises to the Creator for guiding you to HIS PURE
SCRIPTURES
14)By HIS Blessings and assistance from the concern community...you begin
your journey to discover and gain spiritual enlightenment....
In a nutshell , this was my experience which I hope will assist you and others in the same boat .
May The Almighty ONE TRUE GOD Bless the Seekers of TRUTH !
Amin...!
......
written by mimag2005, February 07, 2008 07:16:54
Hi Ordinaryman n Panca,
Good day !
Read your recent posts...hope you guys don’t mind me nudging in...
I cud emphatise with Ordinaryman. I was in similar state several years ago,,,
01)Inner Restlessness...many questions...no suitable answers...
02)When the right answers came along...cud’nt accept...due to prejudice
thinking...not wanting to sacrifice present materialistic lifestyle, peer
group pressure, family commitments etc...etc...
03)Did this and that but....still inside churning....
04)Finally...turn to spiritual...an inside voice spoke....“Right Decisionâ€Â...
05)We must recognize that we need help...SO....no room for EGO......
........“ WE MUST STRIP OURSELVES BARE.. AKIN TO A BEGGAR..!!!....
06)We CONTINUOUSLY BEG The CREATOR....who created the Heavens, Earth and ALL
other Creations including ourselves...to guide us and show us The TRUE WAY!
07)Which religion to follow...to gain spiritual enlightenment...?
0
All Religion with Scriptures claim that theirs is the right path to GOD, TRUTH and ETERNAL LIFE.
09)With an unbias mind.. list down the major religions which possess
Scriptures
10)Pose these questions to the respective Elders....
........Are your Scriptures still available in its ORIGINAL LANGUAGE...?
........Are there any changes/modifications made to the ORIGINAL MESSAGES...?
11)You will be very, very surprised to learn that with just these 2 questions
put forward, most of the major religions fail the test.
12)Now you are in an informed position to identify which Scriptures
remain.....having its Original Language and PURE MESSAGE.
13)Give thanks and praises to the Creator for guiding you to HIS PURE
SCRIPTURES
14)By HIS Blessings and assistance from the concern community...you begin
your journey to discover and gain spiritual enlightenment....
In a nutshell , this was my experience which I hope will assist you and others in the same boat .
May The Almighty ONE TRUE GOD Bless the Seekers of TRUTH !
Amin...!
......
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written by OrdinaryMan, February 07, 2008 05:14:03
written by OrdinaryMan, February 07, 2008 05:14:03
Panca,
‘What if the answer is NO?’
‘Does that answer your question?’
No, my dear, it does not. Instead it puts forth a whole new set of questions. I simply have to keep on searching. Unlike you, (I do envy you for that) you have already found your answer. I could have taken your path if I’m sure that’s the correct path. Unfortunately I can never be sure.
Does the Koran specifically mention one has to DIE? I don’t remember the bible saying that one has to die to achieve eternal life. A temporary life may mean a temporary physical life. To be more specific, do you think (seriously) that one can evolve from a physical life to a spiritual life without death? Can you tell me more about Prophet Idris?
Cheers!
[removed]void(0);
grin
‘What if the answer is NO?’
‘Does that answer your question?’
No, my dear, it does not. Instead it puts forth a whole new set of questions. I simply have to keep on searching. Unlike you, (I do envy you for that) you have already found your answer. I could have taken your path if I’m sure that’s the correct path. Unfortunately I can never be sure.
Does the Koran specifically mention one has to DIE? I don’t remember the bible saying that one has to die to achieve eternal life. A temporary life may mean a temporary physical life. To be more specific, do you think (seriously) that one can evolve from a physical life to a spiritual life without death? Can you tell me more about Prophet Idris?
Cheers!
[removed]void(0);
grin
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written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 15:22:52
written by Avanza1, January 05, 2008 | 15:07:00
>>written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 | 22:44:19
......................................................
DO YOU SEE ANY OF THE ABOVE ANOINTED FIGURES from 3 " so called different faiths" DECLARING MORE THAN ONE GOD ???
** Like many muslim you suffer from selective reading.
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY FATHER’s HAND.
30 I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE
....one in what..??.... In Omniscience...in Omnipotence…. In their Nature...???
ABSOLUTELY NO...!!
It is ONE IN PURPOSE..!! ….
In verses 28 & 29… see the similarities in the ending verses.....
....PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND…..PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY FATHER’s HAND....
Once a believer has accepted faith, the Messenger sees to it that he remains in faith and God Almighty also sees to it that he remains in faith.
.............CANNOT ACCEPT........???...........
OK..! ....Lets go to JOHN CH 17 :
21.. that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22… And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one ..
23 I IN THEM, AND THOU IN ME, THAT THEY MAY BE MADE PERFECT IN ONE.
In John 10:30 if Jesus is ONE with God and this ONENESS makes Jesus God....
Then...the traitor Judas, the doubting Thomas, the SATANIC Peter (Matt 16:23)
the 9 Others who deserted him are God(s); because the same ONENESS which he claimed with God in John 10 : 30, NOW HE CLAIMS FOR ALLL…..!!
....What do we have now.... A GERMAN SAUSAGE made up of 15 God(s)....!!!
.......
written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 15:22:52
written by Avanza1, January 05, 2008 | 15:07:00
>>written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 | 22:44:19
......................................................
DO YOU SEE ANY OF THE ABOVE ANOINTED FIGURES from 3 " so called different faiths" DECLARING MORE THAN ONE GOD ???
** Like many muslim you suffer from selective reading.
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY FATHER’s HAND.
30 I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE
....one in what..??.... In Omniscience...in Omnipotence…. In their Nature...???
ABSOLUTELY NO...!!
It is ONE IN PURPOSE..!! ….
In verses 28 & 29… see the similarities in the ending verses.....
....PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND…..PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY FATHER’s HAND....
Once a believer has accepted faith, the Messenger sees to it that he remains in faith and God Almighty also sees to it that he remains in faith.
.............CANNOT ACCEPT........???...........
OK..! ....Lets go to JOHN CH 17 :
21.. that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22… And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one ..
23 I IN THEM, AND THOU IN ME, THAT THEY MAY BE MADE PERFECT IN ONE.
In John 10:30 if Jesus is ONE with God and this ONENESS makes Jesus God....
Then...the traitor Judas, the doubting Thomas, the SATANIC Peter (Matt 16:23)
the 9 Others who deserted him are God(s); because the same ONENESS which he claimed with God in John 10 : 30, NOW HE CLAIMS FOR ALLL…..!!
....What do we have now.... A GERMAN SAUSAGE made up of 15 God(s)....!!!
.......
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written by Panca Indera, February 06, 2008 14:44:25
written by Panca Indera, February 06, 2008 14:44:25
Dear OdinaryMan,
>> “NO HOLDS BARREDâ€Â. That means everything and anything goes.
It means any topic can be debated or discussed. Fair enough, but decorum is essential if we want meaningful exchanges with fair, just and valid comments based on documented evidences(Bible,Quran,Vedas, Thalmud, Hadith, Torah, research papers, scientific evidences etc…etc
It does not give one the right to make wild , unfounded accusations or rude to a fellow human, regardless or his beliefs. Retaliation is allowed in cases of unjust or unfair treatment.
>> I apologize if I have offended you or anyone else. But, I must admit mud-slinging does make this forum a bit more interesting.
Don’t apologize to me OrdinaryMan, in fact you are not bad in my book.
>> So strong that you have broken one of the principles of your own Faith – to be tolerant
I’m tolerant, otherwise there would be no discussion. I would have switch off long ago.And don’t forget Tolerance does not means letting others step on your head or abuse your beliefs.
>>Why does man want a religion? My guess is that he/she hopes for eternal life.
I disagree. I did not choose to belief in God because I wanted eternal life. I choose to belief because from whatever angle I look at or whatever knowledge or information I learned, I become more convinced than ever before of His Intelligent Designs. If God choose to destroy me right now and I become nothing, I will accept willingly as He is Master of All Creation. If He puts me in Hell just to prove that I am wrong in my beliefs, It is His Will and I have no say but accept( But logic tells me He will not do such things.) He gave me Intelligence, Conscience and the Free Will to control and manage my desires and needs. No doubts I have had my share of screw-ups, but He has guided and keep watch over me and I am truly ever grateful to Him. Even to be allowed to be born into this world and have reach this age to enjoyed His Blessings and Mercy, I could not find fault in Him. I am not even a zillionth of an atom in statue crawling and begging in front of His Majesty. No words can describe the Lord and No eyes can see His Glory and Majesty in this life. The Eternal with no Beginning or Ending.
Glory be to Thee ! Hallelujah ! Subhanallah!
>>Unfortunately man is just – man. Just a glorified animal.
Without spiritually Man is worse than Animal!(think about it)
>> It is men with power that spread religion. Yes, it is propagation by the sword!
There you go, making sweeping statement, without doing proper research. ISLAM. The Arabic word from the root word meaning PEACE, SUBMISSION. Study how Muhammad PBUH, how Jesus PBUH, Moses PBUH spread the religion. The one that used the swords are not messengers, but mostly OrdinaryMen of Greed and little Understanding.
It does not matter to me if it is a zero sum game as you put it. God owns and created everything, so who are you to question Him in what He will or will not do?
>>Did you ever question your Faith?
Every ThinkingMan (and woman)at one time or another will question the purpose of his/her existence.
>>As our honorable RPK did?
I’m not RPK. He has his life and I’ve mind. I respect his Honor, Bravery Tenacity, Intelligence and Conscience, but He is still a man.
>>Religions advocate eternal life AFTER death. My main question: Do you need to die before you attain eternal life?
Religion does not advocate eternal life. What God says in His Religion(s) is this life is only temporary/time limited. Real life begins after. Get the drift?
Therefore to achieve eternal life you have to pass through this one . Yessss!
By the way according to some Islamic tradition, there is a man who managed to passed through to the next world without dying. I think it is the Prophet Idris.
What if the answer is NO?
Does that answer your question?
Admiral Tojo
>>This life is nothing but vanity, ILLUSION and play. (Quran)
Its talking of people like you, Don’t you get it yet!
>> “NO HOLDS BARREDâ€Â. That means everything and anything goes.
It means any topic can be debated or discussed. Fair enough, but decorum is essential if we want meaningful exchanges with fair, just and valid comments based on documented evidences(Bible,Quran,Vedas, Thalmud, Hadith, Torah, research papers, scientific evidences etc…etc
It does not give one the right to make wild , unfounded accusations or rude to a fellow human, regardless or his beliefs. Retaliation is allowed in cases of unjust or unfair treatment.
>> I apologize if I have offended you or anyone else. But, I must admit mud-slinging does make this forum a bit more interesting.
Don’t apologize to me OrdinaryMan, in fact you are not bad in my book.
>> So strong that you have broken one of the principles of your own Faith – to be tolerant
I’m tolerant, otherwise there would be no discussion. I would have switch off long ago.And don’t forget Tolerance does not means letting others step on your head or abuse your beliefs.
>>Why does man want a religion? My guess is that he/she hopes for eternal life.
I disagree. I did not choose to belief in God because I wanted eternal life. I choose to belief because from whatever angle I look at or whatever knowledge or information I learned, I become more convinced than ever before of His Intelligent Designs. If God choose to destroy me right now and I become nothing, I will accept willingly as He is Master of All Creation. If He puts me in Hell just to prove that I am wrong in my beliefs, It is His Will and I have no say but accept( But logic tells me He will not do such things.) He gave me Intelligence, Conscience and the Free Will to control and manage my desires and needs. No doubts I have had my share of screw-ups, but He has guided and keep watch over me and I am truly ever grateful to Him. Even to be allowed to be born into this world and have reach this age to enjoyed His Blessings and Mercy, I could not find fault in Him. I am not even a zillionth of an atom in statue crawling and begging in front of His Majesty. No words can describe the Lord and No eyes can see His Glory and Majesty in this life. The Eternal with no Beginning or Ending.
Glory be to Thee ! Hallelujah ! Subhanallah!
>>Unfortunately man is just – man. Just a glorified animal.
Without spiritually Man is worse than Animal!(think about it)
>> It is men with power that spread religion. Yes, it is propagation by the sword!
There you go, making sweeping statement, without doing proper research. ISLAM. The Arabic word from the root word meaning PEACE, SUBMISSION. Study how Muhammad PBUH, how Jesus PBUH, Moses PBUH spread the religion. The one that used the swords are not messengers, but mostly OrdinaryMen of Greed and little Understanding.
It does not matter to me if it is a zero sum game as you put it. God owns and created everything, so who are you to question Him in what He will or will not do?
>>Did you ever question your Faith?
Every ThinkingMan (and woman)at one time or another will question the purpose of his/her existence.
>>As our honorable RPK did?
I’m not RPK. He has his life and I’ve mind. I respect his Honor, Bravery Tenacity, Intelligence and Conscience, but He is still a man.
>>Religions advocate eternal life AFTER death. My main question: Do you need to die before you attain eternal life?
Religion does not advocate eternal life. What God says in His Religion(s) is this life is only temporary/time limited. Real life begins after. Get the drift?
Therefore to achieve eternal life you have to pass through this one . Yessss!
By the way according to some Islamic tradition, there is a man who managed to passed through to the next world without dying. I think it is the Prophet Idris.
What if the answer is NO?
Does that answer your question?
Admiral Tojo
>>This life is nothing but vanity, ILLUSION and play. (Quran)
Its talking of people like you, Don’t you get it yet!
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written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 05:08:42
Hi Avanza,
Let’s see what your “ GOD INSPIRED HOLY BIBLE “ got to say about the LIGHT OF THE MOON.....
Isaiah 30:26
............
Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
Isa 13:10
..........
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Eze 32:7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
Mat 24:29
.........
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mk 13:24
.........
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
....ARE THE ABOVE REVELATIONS GOD “INSPIRED WORDS “.....???!!!
....MAKE YOUR MOVE....!!!
................
written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 05:08:42
Hi Avanza,
Let’s see what your “ GOD INSPIRED HOLY BIBLE “ got to say about the LIGHT OF THE MOON.....
Isaiah 30:26
............
Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
Isa 13:10
..........
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Eze 32:7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
Mat 24:29
.........
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mk 13:24
.........
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
....ARE THE ABOVE REVELATIONS GOD “INSPIRED WORDS “.....???!!!
....MAKE YOUR MOVE....!!!
................
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written by Admiral Tojo, February 06, 2008 04:21:36
written by Admiral Tojo, February 06, 2008 04:21:36
This life is nothing but vanity, ILLUSION and play. (Quran)
Salaam
Salaam
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written by OrdinaryMan, February 06, 2008 03:33:23
written by OrdinaryMan, February 06, 2008 03:33:23
Dear Panca
This Forum is under the heading “NO HOLDS BARREDâ€Â. That means everything and anything goes. That includes some mud-slinging. I must admit I enter into this thread in the middle of a mud-sling. I apologize if I have offended you or anyone else. But, I must admit mud-slinging does make this forum a bit more interesting. That was how I got drawn into this in the first place. Looks like I’ve got mud all over me too.
I salute you for being such a strong advocate of your Faith. So strong that you have broken one of the principles of your own Faith – to be tolerant. But then again this is a NO HOLDS BARRED column. So it's okay!
Please be tolerant with me for a while and let’s discuss the deeper issues of religion.
Why does man want a religion? My guess is that he/she hopes for eternal life. Religion provides that hope. Unfortunately man is just – man. Just a glorified animal. In the law of the jungle man survives better than other animals because he can think better. It is inside this gray matter that religion is born.
Throughout history you will find that religion is power in the real sense of the word. It is men with power that spread religion. Yes, it is propagation by the sword!
Anyway, Panca, let’s really open up our minds ask if it is true that we hope that our Faith can give us eternal life. If this premise is not true, then everything comes to zero. Did you ever question your Faith? As our honorable RPK did?
The religions advocate eternal life AFTER death. My main question: Do you need to die before you attain eternal life?
What if the answer is NO?
Cheers!
This Forum is under the heading “NO HOLDS BARREDâ€Â. That means everything and anything goes. That includes some mud-slinging. I must admit I enter into this thread in the middle of a mud-sling. I apologize if I have offended you or anyone else. But, I must admit mud-slinging does make this forum a bit more interesting. That was how I got drawn into this in the first place. Looks like I’ve got mud all over me too.
I salute you for being such a strong advocate of your Faith. So strong that you have broken one of the principles of your own Faith – to be tolerant. But then again this is a NO HOLDS BARRED column. So it's okay!
Please be tolerant with me for a while and let’s discuss the deeper issues of religion.
Why does man want a religion? My guess is that he/she hopes for eternal life. Religion provides that hope. Unfortunately man is just – man. Just a glorified animal. In the law of the jungle man survives better than other animals because he can think better. It is inside this gray matter that religion is born.
Throughout history you will find that religion is power in the real sense of the word. It is men with power that spread religion. Yes, it is propagation by the sword!
Anyway, Panca, let’s really open up our minds ask if it is true that we hope that our Faith can give us eternal life. If this premise is not true, then everything comes to zero. Did you ever question your Faith? As our honorable RPK did?
The religions advocate eternal life AFTER death. My main question: Do you need to die before you attain eternal life?
What if the answer is NO?
Cheers!
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written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 03:15:17
Hi Avanza1
2 Kings Ch 19 Verses 1 to 37 and ISAIAH CH 37....
...............................................
.....Which of the TWO CHAPTERS above are “ GOD INSPIRED WORDS “ and........
.....Which of the TWO CHAPTERS above is " PLAGIARISM OF HIGHEST DEGREE.." ??? !!!
...............
written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 03:15:17
Hi Avanza1
2 Kings Ch 19 Verses 1 to 37 and ISAIAH CH 37....
...............................................
.....Which of the TWO CHAPTERS above are “ GOD INSPIRED WORDS “ and........
.....Which of the TWO CHAPTERS above is " PLAGIARISM OF HIGHEST DEGREE.." ??? !!!
...............
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written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 02:57:14
Hi Avanza1,
This is what your “ GOD INSPIRED HOLY BIBLE “ has to say about.....
.....BEGINNING OF CREATION.....
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.
GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.
GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.
GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.
......†GOD INSPIRED WORDS OR GROSS CONTRADICTIONS.....????? !!!!......
.....
written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 02:57:14
Hi Avanza1,
This is what your “ GOD INSPIRED HOLY BIBLE “ has to say about.....
.....BEGINNING OF CREATION.....
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.
GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.
GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.
GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.
......†GOD INSPIRED WORDS OR GROSS CONTRADICTIONS.....????? !!!!......
.....
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written by mimag2005, February 05, 2008 21:09:43
written by mimag2005, February 05, 2008 21:09:43
Corrections
................
written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 | 01:50:55
I am no preacher man… By HIS Blessings I crossed the “ Crossroads “ ... one of many......
.......
................
written by mimag2005, February 06, 2008 | 01:50:55
I am no preacher man… By HIS Blessings I crossed the “ Crossroads “ ... one of many......
.......
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written by mimag2005, February 05, 2008 20:01:58
Hi Avanza1,
With regards to the shape of Earth…..
I quote several verses from Scriptures……which you claim to be...
....“ THE HOLY BIBLE “ AS THE “ INSPIRED WORDS OF GOD “...?? !!
THE EARTH IS FLAT....?? !
Isaiah 11:12
............
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)
Revelation 7:1
...............
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)
The Earth has Edges?!
......................
"that it might take the earth by the EDGES shake the wicked out of it? (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:13)"
THE EARTH IS A CIRCLE ? !
........................
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. (From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 40:22)"
So according to your bible.....Earth is Flat and a Circle....????!!!!!
What shape can we make out…..???!!!!!
.... SIMILAR TO OUR 10 SEN COIN....!!!!!!
DO YOU AGREE WITH YOUR HOLY BIBLE’S DESCRIPTION ON EARTH’S SHAPE OR ARE THERE GROSS IN ERRORS...????
I AM READY WHEN EVER YOU ARE...!!!
......
written by mimag2005, February 05, 2008 20:01:58
Hi Avanza1,
With regards to the shape of Earth…..
I quote several verses from Scriptures……which you claim to be...
....“ THE HOLY BIBLE “ AS THE “ INSPIRED WORDS OF GOD “...?? !!
THE EARTH IS FLAT....?? !
Isaiah 11:12
............
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)
Revelation 7:1
...............
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)
The Earth has Edges?!
......................
"that it might take the earth by the EDGES shake the wicked out of it? (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:13)"
THE EARTH IS A CIRCLE ? !
........................
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. (From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 40:22)"
So according to your bible.....Earth is Flat and a Circle....????!!!!!
What shape can we make out…..???!!!!!
.... SIMILAR TO OUR 10 SEN COIN....!!!!!!
DO YOU AGREE WITH YOUR HOLY BIBLE’S DESCRIPTION ON EARTH’S SHAPE OR ARE THERE GROSS IN ERRORS...????
I AM READY WHEN EVER YOU ARE...!!!
......
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written by mimag2005, February 05, 2008 18:26:24
written by mimag2005, February 05, 2008 18:26:24
written by Avanza1, February 06, 2008 | 01:20:37
All the scientific miracles are copied from prior/same period of civilization. It is shameful to claim it as Quranic scientific miracles.....
.................................
I guess you must be referring to my earlier post.
.... can you please present your PROOFS..??....
Also anything in the Bible that cud be proven scientifically...?
......
All the scientific miracles are copied from prior/same period of civilization. It is shameful to claim it as Quranic scientific miracles.....
.................................
I guess you must be referring to my earlier post.
.... can you please present your PROOFS..??....
Also anything in the Bible that cud be proven scientifically...?
......
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written by mimag2005, February 05, 2008 18:12:10
written by mimag2005, February 05, 2008 18:12:10
Hi Avanza1,
written by Avanza1, February 06, 2008 | 01:39:14
If the muslims show sura 86.005-007, they will laugh their heads off and would agree something is not in place about the quran. Guys please be aware, they are not showing all about quran. There are hidden cards...
.........................................................
I dont get your joke... you mean you creted from toddy juice or what...?
What has your Christian Bible got to say about creation of man..??
What has you Christian Bible got to say about the shape of Earth ...???
.................
written by Avanza1, February 06, 2008 | 01:39:14
If the muslims show sura 86.005-007, they will laugh their heads off and would agree something is not in place about the quran. Guys please be aware, they are not showing all about quran. There are hidden cards...
.........................................................
I dont get your joke... you mean you creted from toddy juice or what...?
What has your Christian Bible got to say about creation of man..??
What has you Christian Bible got to say about the shape of Earth ...???
.................
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written by mimag2005, February 05, 2008 17:50:55
Hi Rohani,
written by Rohani Hitam, February 05, 2008 | 01:05:00
Things look more complicated than I thought. Bye, I am leaving this thread.
Since you came from a scientific background, I answered your invitation by quoting ESTABLISHED SCIENTIFIC FACTS on creation of the universe and creation of mankind by Doyens in their respective fields ( macrocosms/microcosms).
Then …..by HIS Blessings i provided 2 other approaches i.e. a gist of the exoterics and esoterics….
By HIS Will , I assure you theres no cause for complication….
The prerequisites are….
Humility, Sincerity, Patience, Grateful and ask for HIS Blessings and Guidance before embarking on your journey…..
The fingers that typed the above words…..Is that Rohani..?......No..?
Then Who, Which, What, Where is Rohani….???
I am no preacher man… By HIS Blessings I crossed the “ Crossroads “
May The Almighty… The Unique…The All Wise…..
…. shed some light in your inner temple…..
Amin !
.........
written by mimag2005, February 05, 2008 17:50:55
Hi Rohani,
written by Rohani Hitam, February 05, 2008 | 01:05:00
Things look more complicated than I thought. Bye, I am leaving this thread.
Since you came from a scientific background, I answered your invitation by quoting ESTABLISHED SCIENTIFIC FACTS on creation of the universe and creation of mankind by Doyens in their respective fields ( macrocosms/microcosms).
Then …..by HIS Blessings i provided 2 other approaches i.e. a gist of the exoterics and esoterics….
By HIS Will , I assure you theres no cause for complication….
The prerequisites are….
Humility, Sincerity, Patience, Grateful and ask for HIS Blessings and Guidance before embarking on your journey…..
The fingers that typed the above words…..Is that Rohani..?......No..?
Then Who, Which, What, Where is Rohani….???
I am no preacher man… By HIS Blessings I crossed the “ Crossroads “
May The Almighty… The Unique…The All Wise…..
…. shed some light in your inner temple…..
Amin !
.........
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written by Avanza1, February 05, 2008 17:39:14
written by Avanza1, February 05, 2008 17:39:14
If the muslims show sura 86.005-007, they will laugh their heads off and would agree something is not in place about the quran. Guys please be aware, they are not showing all about quran. There are hidden cards...
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written by Avanza1, February 05, 2008 17:20:37
written by Avanza1, February 05, 2008 17:20:37
All the scientific miracles are copied from prior/same period of civilization. It is shameful to claim it as Quranic scientific miracles. Either Allah in quran not the creator of man or faulty scientific observation were copied over wholely. Following verse speaks of what human organ produces semen/human sperm. Is Allah some kind of alien been?
086.005
YUSUFALI: Now let man but think from what he is created!
PICKTHAL: So let man consider from what he is created.
SHAKIR: So let man consider of what he is created:
086.006
YUSUFALI: He is created from a drop emitted-
PICKTHAL: He is created from a gushing fluid
SHAKIR: He is created of water pouring forth,
086.007
YUSUFALI: Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:
PICKTHAL: That issued from between the loins and ribs.
SHAKIR: Coming from between the back and the ribs.
086.008
YUSUFALI: Surely (Allah) is able to bring him back (to life)!
PICKTHAL: Lo! He verily is Able to return him (unto life)
SHAKIR: Most surely He is able to return him (to life).
086.005
YUSUFALI: Now let man but think from what he is created!
PICKTHAL: So let man consider from what he is created.
SHAKIR: So let man consider of what he is created:
086.006
YUSUFALI: He is created from a drop emitted-
PICKTHAL: He is created from a gushing fluid
SHAKIR: He is created of water pouring forth,
086.007
YUSUFALI: Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:
PICKTHAL: That issued from between the loins and ribs.
SHAKIR: Coming from between the back and the ribs.
086.008
YUSUFALI: Surely (Allah) is able to bring him back (to life)!
PICKTHAL: Lo! He verily is Able to return him (unto life)
SHAKIR: Most surely He is able to return him (to life).
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written by Panca Indera, February 05, 2008 13:56:59
written by Panca Indera, February 05, 2008 13:56:59
Dear OrdinaryMan
>>Did I say I hope to evolve into Nothingness? Did I even use that word?
Your past postings implies the wish and hope and belief as such, otherwise what does pure consciousness means?
PCE: During meditation (...) one may become utterly silent inside, as though in a gap between thoughts, where one becomes completely perception- and thought-free.(nothingness)
How can you have an out of body experience if you don’t have a body in the first place(i.e.dead)
>>Your posting led me into just three simple conclusions:
>>1. I was wrong when I proclaimed you as the knowledgeable one initially.
You are right.So who deserves to be called idiot.
>>2. While others kept an open mind, your mind is so closed that it’s practically airtight.
I will not keep an open mind to rubbish being said by the ignorant and arrogant people condemning the Supreme Being, Allah the One and only God, my Creator and Master
>>3. Most importantly: In just these few simple short postings in this forum, you have misinterpreted what I have written.
I just cut and pasted what you wrote. You are the one who cannot remember that you wrote. The beer getting to your brain already.
>>You should be able to realize your own shortcomings and stop imposing upon others what they should do and what they should not do.
I know my shortcomings and tries hard to improve myself all the time to please my Creator. Never did I tried to impose my views(offers alternatives). I was just firm in my beliefs. I have the right to dispute your beliefs just like you guys who started to make fun of my beliefs first.
When did I asked anybody to change his beliefs. Read my threads again. Who started the Mud slinging?
It was Admiral Tojo, not I. and he does not have the courtesy to apologize!
>>Now I really need that beer, Admiral.
How excellent the company you keep!
You deserved each other.
Next time be prepared to take what you dish out to others.
Go on Admiral, Try not to miss this time when you decide to shoot yourself.
Sayonara!
>>Did I say I hope to evolve into Nothingness? Did I even use that word?
Your past postings implies the wish and hope and belief as such, otherwise what does pure consciousness means?
PCE: During meditation (...) one may become utterly silent inside, as though in a gap between thoughts, where one becomes completely perception- and thought-free.(nothingness)
How can you have an out of body experience if you don’t have a body in the first place(i.e.dead)
>>Your posting led me into just three simple conclusions:
>>1. I was wrong when I proclaimed you as the knowledgeable one initially.
You are right.So who deserves to be called idiot.
>>2. While others kept an open mind, your mind is so closed that it’s practically airtight.
I will not keep an open mind to rubbish being said by the ignorant and arrogant people condemning the Supreme Being, Allah the One and only God, my Creator and Master
>>3. Most importantly: In just these few simple short postings in this forum, you have misinterpreted what I have written.
I just cut and pasted what you wrote. You are the one who cannot remember that you wrote. The beer getting to your brain already.
>>You should be able to realize your own shortcomings and stop imposing upon others what they should do and what they should not do.
I know my shortcomings and tries hard to improve myself all the time to please my Creator. Never did I tried to impose my views(offers alternatives). I was just firm in my beliefs. I have the right to dispute your beliefs just like you guys who started to make fun of my beliefs first.
When did I asked anybody to change his beliefs. Read my threads again. Who started the Mud slinging?
It was Admiral Tojo, not I. and he does not have the courtesy to apologize!
>>Now I really need that beer, Admiral.
How excellent the company you keep!
You deserved each other.
Next time be prepared to take what you dish out to others.
Go on Admiral, Try not to miss this time when you decide to shoot yourself.
Sayonara!
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written by OrdinaryMan, February 05, 2008 12:53:01
written by OrdinaryMan, February 05, 2008 12:53:01
My dear Panca Indera
I was getting weary of this thread. Did I say I hope to evolve into Nothingness? Did I even use that word?
Your posting led me into just three simple conclusions:
1. I was wrong when I proclaimed you as the knowledgeable one initially.
2. While others kept an open mind, your mind is so closed that it’s practically airtight.
3. Most importantly: In just these few simple short postings in this forum, you have misinterpreted what I have written. Imagine people trying to interpret the Koran (or Bible, or any lengthy book for that matter).
You should be able to realize your own shortcomings and stop imposing upon others what they should do and what they should not do. Get a life, Five Senses, and don’t forget the most important sense – common sense.
Now I really need that beer, Admiral.
Cheers!
I was getting weary of this thread. Did I say I hope to evolve into Nothingness? Did I even use that word?
Your posting led me into just three simple conclusions:
1. I was wrong when I proclaimed you as the knowledgeable one initially.
2. While others kept an open mind, your mind is so closed that it’s practically airtight.
3. Most importantly: In just these few simple short postings in this forum, you have misinterpreted what I have written. Imagine people trying to interpret the Koran (or Bible, or any lengthy book for that matter).
You should be able to realize your own shortcomings and stop imposing upon others what they should do and what they should not do. Get a life, Five Senses, and don’t forget the most important sense – common sense.
Now I really need that beer, Admiral.
Cheers!
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written by OrdinaryMan, February 05, 2008 12:49:52
written by OrdinaryMan, February 05, 2008 12:49:52
Dear Rohani Hitam
‘Sounds very unscientific. Hope you can prove something for us to believe this.’
Sorry. I can’t prove it to you. But I’m working on it. I’m in a dark room groping for the door. I’m knocking myself silly into walls in the process. That will not stop me from trying.
The very fact you want me to prove it to you shows that you are not willing to believe in something that has no proof. None of all the religions has proved anything. Yet there are people who believe in them. That’s what I call blind faith.
Don’t worry; I’ll let you know if I find an opening. Meanwhile enjoy life!
Cheers!
‘Sounds very unscientific. Hope you can prove something for us to believe this.’
Sorry. I can’t prove it to you. But I’m working on it. I’m in a dark room groping for the door. I’m knocking myself silly into walls in the process. That will not stop me from trying.
The very fact you want me to prove it to you shows that you are not willing to believe in something that has no proof. None of all the religions has proved anything. Yet there are people who believe in them. That’s what I call blind faith.
Don’t worry; I’ll let you know if I find an opening. Meanwhile enjoy life!
Cheers!
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written by Panca Indera, February 04, 2008 17:23:00
written by Panca Indera, February 04, 2008 17:23:00
Dear CatV5
>> First of all, human just guess.
not all, some are full of wisdoms others full of sh..t
Choose carefully!
>>32:9Then He evolved him, and blew into him from His Spirit
91.7-10] And the soul and Him Who made it perfect,
Then He inspired it to understand what is right and wrong for it;
He will indeed be successful who purifies it,
And he will indeed fail who corrupts it.
>> From the scripture, it seems that only God, satan and us got free will. Jinn i'm not sure yet,
You can check this info but basically, Jinn is created from flame(fire (the colourless part of the flame some says). Satan is a group of evil Jinns whose leader is Iblis. They are like humans in beliefs, reproductions, socio religious orders and characters etc.etc, only visible to human under certain conditions(Like human anti-matter).
Satan in his arrogance wanted to proof to God that Man is not what he is cut-out to be.Man being made of dirt(earth/clay) but given higher ranking than angles or Jinns, really pisses Iblis off. He thought he was the BEST because he was made of pure fire and very pious and obedient before Adam was created.
>>Maybe in hell, people can still feel pain, and they can regenerate, and feel the pain again and again and again, forever.
Its not Maybe, its for real. That’s why nobody came back from the dead to tell. Try to figure that out.
>>Like what Abraham had asked, to protect his progeny (correct me if i'm wrong, it's the Children of Israel).
Partly correct. His progeny were Ismail (father of Arabs) and Isaac(father of Jews) and applies only those who are “believersâ€Â.
>>Maybe because God knows, human is evolving to a more intelligent and educated person where they can finally think by themselves.
Don’t even try to second guess God’s works. Just think about saving yourself. As you progress, the tests gets harder and the reward greater.
>>No need messenger since electronic communication is finally at our hands. Everybody can study from the scripture. And anybody who declares he's a messenger will be ridiculed and considered sesat.
Never thought that way before. Good point
>>but this is what had been inspired to me from the Reading.
You are on the right part. Keep reading , researching and remembering HIM.
The Internet is your Oyster!
Best wishes and good Luck.
>> First of all, human just guess.
not all, some are full of wisdoms others full of sh..t
Choose carefully!
>>32:9Then He evolved him, and blew into him from His Spirit
91.7-10] And the soul and Him Who made it perfect,
Then He inspired it to understand what is right and wrong for it;
He will indeed be successful who purifies it,
And he will indeed fail who corrupts it.
>> From the scripture, it seems that only God, satan and us got free will. Jinn i'm not sure yet,
You can check this info but basically, Jinn is created from flame(fire (the colourless part of the flame some says). Satan is a group of evil Jinns whose leader is Iblis. They are like humans in beliefs, reproductions, socio religious orders and characters etc.etc, only visible to human under certain conditions(Like human anti-matter).
Satan in his arrogance wanted to proof to God that Man is not what he is cut-out to be.Man being made of dirt(earth/clay) but given higher ranking than angles or Jinns, really pisses Iblis off. He thought he was the BEST because he was made of pure fire and very pious and obedient before Adam was created.
>>Maybe in hell, people can still feel pain, and they can regenerate, and feel the pain again and again and again, forever.
Its not Maybe, its for real. That’s why nobody came back from the dead to tell. Try to figure that out.
>>Like what Abraham had asked, to protect his progeny (correct me if i'm wrong, it's the Children of Israel).
Partly correct. His progeny were Ismail (father of Arabs) and Isaac(father of Jews) and applies only those who are “believersâ€Â.
>>Maybe because God knows, human is evolving to a more intelligent and educated person where they can finally think by themselves.
Don’t even try to second guess God’s works. Just think about saving yourself. As you progress, the tests gets harder and the reward greater.
>>No need messenger since electronic communication is finally at our hands. Everybody can study from the scripture. And anybody who declares he's a messenger will be ridiculed and considered sesat.
Never thought that way before. Good point
>>but this is what had been inspired to me from the Reading.
You are on the right part. Keep reading , researching and remembering HIM.
The Internet is your Oyster!
Best wishes and good Luck.
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written by Rohani Hitam, February 04, 2008 17:05:00
written by Rohani Hitam, February 04, 2008 17:05:00
Things look more complicated than I thought. Bye, I am leaving this thread.
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written by CatV5, February 04, 2008 02:19:13
written by CatV5, February 04, 2008 02:19:13
This is good stuff too. From "Matrix Reloaded":
Neo: I just haven't been able to sleep much.
Councillor Hamann: It's a good sign.
Neo: Of what?
Councillor Hamann: That you are, in fact, still human. Have you ever been to the enginering level? I love to walk there at night, it's quite amazing. Would you like to see it?
Neo: Sure.
Councillor Hamann: Almost no one comes down here, unless, of course, there's a problem. That's how it is with people - nobody cares how it works as long as it works. I like it down here. I like to be reminded this city survives because of these machines. These machines are keeping us alive, while other machines are coming to kill us. Interesting, isn't it? Power to give life, and the power to end it.
Neo: We have the same power.
Councillor Hamann: I suppose we do, but down here sometimes I think about all those people still plugged into the Matrix and when I look at these machines, I.. I can't help thinking that in a way, we are plugged into them.
Neo: But we control these machines, they don't control us.
Councillor Hamann: Of course not, how could they? The idea's pure nonsense, but... it does make one wonder just... what is control?
Neo: If we wanted, we could shut these machines down.
Councillor Hamann: Of course... that's it. You hit it! That's control, isn't it? If we wanted, we could smash them to bits. Although if we did, we'd have to consider what would happen to our lights, our heat, our air.
Neo: So we need machines and they need us. Is that your point, Councillor?
Councillor Hamann: No, no point. Old men like me don't bother with making points. There's no point.
Neo: Is that why there are no young men on the Council?
Councillor Hamann: Good point.
Neo: Why don't you tell me what's on your mind, Councillor?
Councillor Hamann: There is so much in this world that I do not understand. See that machine? It has something to do with recycling our water supply. I have absolutely no idea how it works. But I do understand the reason for it to work. I have absolutely no idea how you are able to do some of the things you do, but I believe there's a reason for that as well. I only hope we understand that reason before it's too late.
Neo: I just haven't been able to sleep much.
Councillor Hamann: It's a good sign.
Neo: Of what?
Councillor Hamann: That you are, in fact, still human. Have you ever been to the enginering level? I love to walk there at night, it's quite amazing. Would you like to see it?
Neo: Sure.
Councillor Hamann: Almost no one comes down here, unless, of course, there's a problem. That's how it is with people - nobody cares how it works as long as it works. I like it down here. I like to be reminded this city survives because of these machines. These machines are keeping us alive, while other machines are coming to kill us. Interesting, isn't it? Power to give life, and the power to end it.
Neo: We have the same power.
Councillor Hamann: I suppose we do, but down here sometimes I think about all those people still plugged into the Matrix and when I look at these machines, I.. I can't help thinking that in a way, we are plugged into them.
Neo: But we control these machines, they don't control us.
Councillor Hamann: Of course not, how could they? The idea's pure nonsense, but... it does make one wonder just... what is control?
Neo: If we wanted, we could shut these machines down.
Councillor Hamann: Of course... that's it. You hit it! That's control, isn't it? If we wanted, we could smash them to bits. Although if we did, we'd have to consider what would happen to our lights, our heat, our air.
Neo: So we need machines and they need us. Is that your point, Councillor?
Councillor Hamann: No, no point. Old men like me don't bother with making points. There's no point.
Neo: Is that why there are no young men on the Council?
Councillor Hamann: Good point.
Neo: Why don't you tell me what's on your mind, Councillor?
Councillor Hamann: There is so much in this world that I do not understand. See that machine? It has something to do with recycling our water supply. I have absolutely no idea how it works. But I do understand the reason for it to work. I have absolutely no idea how you are able to do some of the things you do, but I believe there's a reason for that as well. I only hope we understand that reason before it's too late.
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written by CatV5, February 04, 2008 02:10:02
i like this quote from the movie "The Matrix"
Mouse : You know what it really reminds me of? Tasty Wheat. Did you ever eat Tasty Wheat?
Switch : No, but technically, neither did you.
Mouse : That's exactly my point. Exactly. Because you have to wonder now, how did the machines really know what Tasty Wheat tasted like, huh? Maybe they got it wrong. Maybe what _I_ think Tasty Wheat tasted like actually tasted like, uh..oatmeal, or tuna fish. That makes you wonder about a lot of things. You take chicken for example, maybe they couldn't figure out what to make chicken taste like, which is why chicken tastes like everything. Maybe they couldn't...
Apoc : Shut up, Mouse.
Peace
written by CatV5, February 04, 2008 02:10:02
i like this quote from the movie "The Matrix"
Mouse : You know what it really reminds me of? Tasty Wheat. Did you ever eat Tasty Wheat?
Switch : No, but technically, neither did you.
Mouse : That's exactly my point. Exactly. Because you have to wonder now, how did the machines really know what Tasty Wheat tasted like, huh? Maybe they got it wrong. Maybe what _I_ think Tasty Wheat tasted like actually tasted like, uh..oatmeal, or tuna fish. That makes you wonder about a lot of things. You take chicken for example, maybe they couldn't figure out what to make chicken taste like, which is why chicken tastes like everything. Maybe they couldn't...
Apoc : Shut up, Mouse.
Peace
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written by CatV5, February 04, 2008 02:08:57
written by CatV5, February 04, 2008 02:08:57
Wow cool discussion. I'd like to budge in too
I like to share my thoughts on this. After i understand some wisdom behind Quran. First of all, human just guess. So everything they say is not absolutely correct or wrong.
If one would read the Quran (i haven't studied previous sciptures yet), God always says about His traits, i.e, forgiver, exalted, wise, knower, creator, etc. I kept thinking that we also has the same traits, but it's in a small quantity though. For example, humans can create, they can innovate, they also has compassion towards others, some are wise too, some knows something that others don't know. Then i read a verse that says God gives some of his spirit to us.
32:9Then He evolved him, and blew into him from His Spirit. And He made for you the hearing, the eyesight, and the hearts; rarely are you thankful.
So i can conclude that, His spirit that we have now is inside this body that we posses now. Ok, some might argue about the arabic translation on His Spirit, but i like to believe in this theory, the logic is there.
Then the free will. From the scripture, it seems that only God satan and us got free will. Jinn i'm not sure yet, Satan maybe from Jinn i don't know. Satan does not want to bow to Adam, so God wanted to throw him to hell, but God is compassionate, Satan asks to give him time for he want to misguide the human to follow his steps, God agrees and here we are. We human got the free will, we can choose our action, decision, path that we want. God had willed that he won't interfere with our decision. But he can inspire us or guide us to the His path to whom he wills. Up to us whether we want to follow or not. But only God knows the consequences of our action.
For me this "free will", is a precious blessing and must be used wisely. Animals and plants don't have that. They act according to God's command. In our human term, instinct. God had created His law in this universe. God had created this earthly law. We can't change it. But we can manipulate it. Like law of Energy, Physics, chemistry, etc. Even Maths, livestocks and vegetables are created for us to eat. I always at awe when looking the fishes and vegetables at the market. It's like the exact copy of one another. It's like it's purposely made to be like that. And the process of human replication, is so delicate and complex. From a simple semen, to a newborn baby. It's all based on the law that God has lined up.
Then the heaven and hell. The judgement day. For those who believe, they really afraid of it. I mean REALLY afraid. God related Hell with abiding fire and pain. Pain is the trait that God gives to us. I think it is to remind us about the pain in Hell. The laws in Hell and Heaven might be different compared to the Law on Earth. Maybe in hell, people can still feel pain, and they can regenerate, and feel the pain again and again and again, forever. I'm scared just thinking of that.
Remember Abraham that has no effect when he was burned? God can change the law easily if He wills. He can make fire does not burn to human. Maybe you ask why he did not make us all peaceful and no killing?, i believe, it's because He respect our free will. He had decided to let us decide on ourself on our own action. But if we sincerely ask God to guide us, maybe He'll intervene if he wills. Like what Abraham had asked, to protect his progeny (correct me if i'm wrong, it's the Children of Israel) and since He is merciful, he gives us the scripture to guide us. The last scripture is Quran, the laws from the scripture is getting simpler. Maybe because God knows, human is evolving to a more intelligent and educated person where they can finally think by themselves. No need messenger since electronic communication is finally at our hands. Everybody can study from the scripture. And anybody who declares he's a messenger will be ridiculed and considered sesat.
I believe, we must be thankful to our Creator. Do good, don't transgress, don't reject His commands, don't corrupt the land and believe in Him. Other things like praying (sincerely), beers (is to avoid, not forbidden) etc is a guide to us on how to become a good person, closer to Him. His blessings are everywhere. Remember God is merciful, ask sincerely for His forgiveness, if you felt like repenting though.
I just can only remind. I maybe wrong, but this is what had been inspired to me from the Reading.
I like to share my thoughts on this. After i understand some wisdom behind Quran. First of all, human just guess. So everything they say is not absolutely correct or wrong.
If one would read the Quran (i haven't studied previous sciptures yet), God always says about His traits, i.e, forgiver, exalted, wise, knower, creator, etc. I kept thinking that we also has the same traits, but it's in a small quantity though. For example, humans can create, they can innovate, they also has compassion towards others, some are wise too, some knows something that others don't know. Then i read a verse that says God gives some of his spirit to us.
32:9Then He evolved him, and blew into him from His Spirit. And He made for you the hearing, the eyesight, and the hearts; rarely are you thankful.
So i can conclude that, His spirit that we have now is inside this body that we posses now. Ok, some might argue about the arabic translation on His Spirit, but i like to believe in this theory, the logic is there.
Then the free will. From the scripture, it seems that only God satan and us got free will. Jinn i'm not sure yet, Satan maybe from Jinn i don't know. Satan does not want to bow to Adam, so God wanted to throw him to hell, but God is compassionate, Satan asks to give him time for he want to misguide the human to follow his steps, God agrees and here we are. We human got the free will, we can choose our action, decision, path that we want. God had willed that he won't interfere with our decision. But he can inspire us or guide us to the His path to whom he wills. Up to us whether we want to follow or not. But only God knows the consequences of our action.
For me this "free will", is a precious blessing and must be used wisely. Animals and plants don't have that. They act according to God's command. In our human term, instinct. God had created His law in this universe. God had created this earthly law. We can't change it. But we can manipulate it. Like law of Energy, Physics, chemistry, etc. Even Maths
, livestocks and vegetables are created for us to eat. I always at awe when looking the fishes and vegetables at the market. It's like the exact copy of one another. It's like it's purposely made to be like that. And the process of human replication, is so delicate and complex. From a simple semen, to a newborn baby. It's all based on the law that God has lined up. Then the heaven and hell. The judgement day. For those who believe, they really afraid of it. I mean REALLY afraid. God related Hell with abiding fire and pain. Pain is the trait that God gives to us. I think it is to remind us about the pain in Hell. The laws in Hell and Heaven might be different compared to the Law on Earth. Maybe in hell, people can still feel pain, and they can regenerate, and feel the pain again and again and again, forever. I'm scared just thinking of that.
Remember Abraham that has no effect when he was burned? God can change the law easily if He wills. He can make fire does not burn to human. Maybe you ask why he did not make us all peaceful and no killing?, i believe, it's because He respect our free will. He had decided to let us decide on ourself on our own action. But if we sincerely ask God to guide us, maybe He'll intervene if he wills. Like what Abraham had asked, to protect his progeny (correct me if i'm wrong, it's the Children of Israel) and since He is merciful, he gives us the scripture to guide us. The last scripture is Quran, the laws from the scripture is getting simpler. Maybe because God knows, human is evolving to a more intelligent and educated person where they can finally think by themselves. No need messenger since electronic communication is finally at our hands. Everybody can study from the scripture. And anybody who declares he's a messenger will be ridiculed and considered sesat.
I believe, we must be thankful to our Creator. Do good, don't transgress, don't reject His commands, don't corrupt the land and believe in Him. Other things like praying (sincerely), beers (is to avoid, not forbidden) etc is a guide to us on how to become a good person, closer to Him. His blessings are everywhere. Remember God is merciful, ask sincerely for His forgiveness, if you felt like repenting though.
I just can only remind. I maybe wrong, but this is what had been inspired to me from the Reading.
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written by Panca Indera, February 04, 2008 01:46:58
written by Panca Indera, February 04, 2008 01:46:58
Dear RH,
I add in my two cents worth on,
"How come God is not available for a good discussion"
You think he is not there but he is there.
thats why its important to begin with a Bismillah and practice Dizkr(Remembrance)
Just because you don’t see Him does not mean He is not present nor unaware.(if you see God with your eyes He is not God, but if you see Him with your heart you are saved)
Remember, He is nearer to you than your Jugular Vein in your neck(the Quran )
I add in my two cents worth on,
"How come God is not available for a good discussion"
You think he is not there but he is there.
thats why its important to begin with a Bismillah and practice Dizkr(Remembrance)
Just because you don’t see Him does not mean He is not present nor unaware.(if you see God with your eyes He is not God, but if you see Him with your heart you are saved)
Remember, He is nearer to you than your Jugular Vein in your neck(the Quran )
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written by mimag2005, February 03, 2008 18:44:35
Hi Rohani,
written by Rohani Hitam, February 04, 2008 | 0:27:59
but let's make it simple by answering how come God is not vailable for a good discussion to explore how we can make this world a better place to live in.
...................................................
HE is apparent.....omniscient.....everywhere.....
........just look around you !.....
HE has also given to mankind “ THE MANUAL “..... LOOK IT UP !.....even the leaf cannot fall without his permission.....
.....illusions within the illusions.....layers upon layers.....
.....HIS will.....not ours.....
.....Its difficult to make one understand what one understood.....
My apologies.....
.....the guy next door.....
.....
written by mimag2005, February 03, 2008 18:44:35
Hi Rohani,
written by Rohani Hitam, February 04, 2008 | 0:27:59
but let's make it simple by answering how come God is not vailable for a good discussion to explore how we can make this world a better place to live in.
...................................................
HE is apparent.....omniscient.....everywhere.....
........just look around you !.....
HE has also given to mankind “ THE MANUAL “..... LOOK IT UP !.....even the leaf cannot fall without his permission.....
.....illusions within the illusions.....layers upon layers.....
.....HIS will.....not ours.....
.....Its difficult to make one understand what one understood.....
My apologies.....
.....the guy next door.....
.....
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written by Rohani Hitam, February 03, 2008 16:27:59
written by Rohani Hitam, February 03, 2008 16:27:59
Dear mimag2005.
Thank you for the elaborate information you provide but let's make it simple by answering how come God is not vailable for a good discussion to explore how we can make this world a better place to live in.
Thank you for the elaborate information you provide but let's make it simple by answering how come God is not vailable for a good discussion to explore how we can make this world a better place to live in.
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written by mimag2005, February 03, 2008 15:08:32
Professor Siaveda : Professor of Marine Geology, Japan
Sheikh Zindani asked him a number of questions in his area of specialisation, and then informed him of the Qur'anic verses and Hadith which mention the same phenomena he spoke of. One of the questions was concerning mountains. Sheikh Zindani asked him about the shape of mountains; and whether they were firmly rooted in the earth. "What is your opinion of what you have seen in the Qur'an and the Sunnah with regard to the secrets of the Universe, which scientists only discovered now?"
"I think it seems to me very, very mysterious, almost unbelievable. I really think if what you have said is true, the book is really a very remarkable book, I agree." [
Tejatat Tejasen : Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and is the former Dean of the faculty of Medicine, University of Chiang Mai, Chiang Mai, Thailand.
Professor Tejasen studied various articles concerning the Qur'an and modern embryology. He spent four days with several scholars, Muslims and non-Muslims, discussing this phenomenon in the Qur'an and Hadith. During the 8th Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia he stood up and said:
"In the last three years, I became interested in the Qur'an... From my studies and what I have learned throughout this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Qur'an fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means.
Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the one who is eligible creator. This creator must be God, or Allah.
I think this is the time to say La ilaha illa Allah, there is no god to worship except Allah (God), Muhammad rasoolu Allah, Muhammad is Messenger of Allah...
The most precious thing I have gained from coming to this conference is La ilaha illa Allah, and to have become Muslim."
Dr. Maurice Bucaille : Born in 1920, former chief of the Surgical Clinic, University of Paris, has for a long time deeply interested in the correspondences between the teachings of the Holy Scriptures and modern secular knowledge
He is the author of a best-seller, "The Bible, The Qur'an and Science" (1976). His classical studies of the scriptural languages, including Arabic, in association with his knowledge of hieroglyphics, have allowed him to hold a multidisciplinary inquiry, in which his personal contribution as a medical doctor has produced conclusive arguments. His work, "Mummies of the Pharaohs - Modern Medical Investigations" (St. Martins Press, 1990), won a History Prize from the Académie Française and another prize from the French National Academy of Medicine.
His other works include: "What is the Origin of Man" (Seghers, 198, "Moses and Pharaoh, the Hebrews in Egypt", (NTT Mediascope Inc, 1994); and "Réflexions sur le Coran" (Mohamed Talbi & Maurice Bucaille, Seghers, 1989)
He is the author of a best-seller, "The Bible, The Qur'an and Science" (1976). His classical studies of the scriptural languages, including Arabic, in association with his knowledge of hieroglyphics, have allowed him to hold a multidisciplinary inquiry, in which his personal contribution as a medical doctor has produced conclusive arguments. His work, "Mummies of the Pharaohs - Modern Medical Investigations" (St. Martins Press, 1990), won a History Prize from the Académie Française and another prize from the French National Academy of Medicine.
His other works include: "What is the Origin of Man" (Seghers, 198, "Moses and Pharaoh, the Hebrews in Egypt", (NTT Mediascope Inc, 1994); and "Réflexions sur le Coran" (Mohamed Talbi & Maurice Bucaille, Seghers, 1989)
After a study which lasted ten years, Dr. Maurice Bucaille addressed the French Academy of Medicine in 1976 concerning the existence in the Qur'an of certain statements concerning physiology and reproduction. His reason for doing that was that :
"...our knowledge of these disciplines is such, that it is impossible to explain how a text produced at the time of the Qur'an could have contained ideas that have only been discovered in modern times."
"The above observation makes the hypothesis advanced by those who see Muhammad as the author of the Qur'an untenable. How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits, in the whole of Arabic literature?
How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human-being could possibly have developed at that time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject?"
" There are benefits to be derived from their insights "
" Seeker of Truth "
.......
written by mimag2005, February 03, 2008 15:08:32
Professor Siaveda : Professor of Marine Geology, Japan
Sheikh Zindani asked him a number of questions in his area of specialisation, and then informed him of the Qur'anic verses and Hadith which mention the same phenomena he spoke of. One of the questions was concerning mountains. Sheikh Zindani asked him about the shape of mountains; and whether they were firmly rooted in the earth. "What is your opinion of what you have seen in the Qur'an and the Sunnah with regard to the secrets of the Universe, which scientists only discovered now?"
"I think it seems to me very, very mysterious, almost unbelievable. I really think if what you have said is true, the book is really a very remarkable book, I agree." [
Tejatat Tejasen : Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and is the former Dean of the faculty of Medicine, University of Chiang Mai, Chiang Mai, Thailand.
Professor Tejasen studied various articles concerning the Qur'an and modern embryology. He spent four days with several scholars, Muslims and non-Muslims, discussing this phenomenon in the Qur'an and Hadith. During the 8th Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia he stood up and said:
"In the last three years, I became interested in the Qur'an... From my studies and what I have learned throughout this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Qur'an fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means.
Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the one who is eligible creator. This creator must be God, or Allah.
I think this is the time to say La ilaha illa Allah, there is no god to worship except Allah (God), Muhammad rasoolu Allah, Muhammad is Messenger of Allah...
The most precious thing I have gained from coming to this conference is La ilaha illa Allah, and to have become Muslim."
Dr. Maurice Bucaille : Born in 1920, former chief of the Surgical Clinic, University of Paris, has for a long time deeply interested in the correspondences between the teachings of the Holy Scriptures and modern secular knowledge
He is the author of a best-seller, "The Bible, The Qur'an and Science" (1976). His classical studies of the scriptural languages, including Arabic, in association with his knowledge of hieroglyphics, have allowed him to hold a multidisciplinary inquiry, in which his personal contribution as a medical doctor has produced conclusive arguments. His work, "Mummies of the Pharaohs - Modern Medical Investigations" (St. Martins Press, 1990), won a History Prize from the Académie Française and another prize from the French National Academy of Medicine.
His other works include: "What is the Origin of Man" (Seghers, 198
, "Moses and Pharaoh, the Hebrews in Egypt", (NTT Mediascope Inc, 1994); and "Réflexions sur le Coran" (Mohamed Talbi & Maurice Bucaille, Seghers, 1989) He is the author of a best-seller, "The Bible, The Qur'an and Science" (1976). His classical studies of the scriptural languages, including Arabic, in association with his knowledge of hieroglyphics, have allowed him to hold a multidisciplinary inquiry, in which his personal contribution as a medical doctor has produced conclusive arguments. His work, "Mummies of the Pharaohs - Modern Medical Investigations" (St. Martins Press, 1990), won a History Prize from the Académie Française and another prize from the French National Academy of Medicine.
His other works include: "What is the Origin of Man" (Seghers, 198
, "Moses and Pharaoh, the Hebrews in Egypt", (NTT Mediascope Inc, 1994); and "Réflexions sur le Coran" (Mohamed Talbi & Maurice Bucaille, Seghers, 1989) After a study which lasted ten years, Dr. Maurice Bucaille addressed the French Academy of Medicine in 1976 concerning the existence in the Qur'an of certain statements concerning physiology and reproduction. His reason for doing that was that :
"...our knowledge of these disciplines is such, that it is impossible to explain how a text produced at the time of the Qur'an could have contained ideas that have only been discovered in modern times."
"The above observation makes the hypothesis advanced by those who see Muhammad as the author of the Qur'an untenable. How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits, in the whole of Arabic literature?
How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human-being could possibly have developed at that time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject?"
" There are benefits to be derived from their insights "
" Seeker of Truth "
.......
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...
written by mimag2005, February 03, 2008 15:06:27
Alfred Kroner : Professor of the Department of Geosciences, University of Mainz, Germany.
Professor Kroner is one of the world's most famous geologists, becoming well known among his colleague scientists for his criticisms against the theories of some of the major scientists in his field. Sheikh cAbdul-Majeed A. Zin dani met with him and presented several Qur'anic verses and Hadith which he studied and commented upon.
"Thinking where Muhammad came from... I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case."
"Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here...
If you combine all these and you combine all these statements that are being made in the Qur'an in terms that relate to the earth and the formation of the earth and science in general, you can basically say that statements made there in many ways are true, they can now be confirmed by scientific methods, and in a way, you can say that the Qur'an is a simple science text book for the simple man. And that many of the statements made in there at that time could not be proven, but that modern scientific methods are now in a position to prove what Muhammad said 1400 years ago." [1]
Yushidi Kusan : Director of the Tokyo Observatory, Tokyo, Japan.
Sheikh Abdul-Majeed A. Zindani presented a number of Qur'anic verses describing the beginnings of the universe and of the heavens, and the relationship of the earth to the heavens. He expressed his astonishment, saying that the Qur'an describes the universe as seen from the highest observation point, everything is distinct and clear.
"I say, I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in Qur'an, and for us modern astronomers have been studying very small piece of the universe. We have concentrated our efforts for understanding of very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts of the sky without thinking about the whole universe. So by reading Qur'an and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe."
Professor Armstrong : Professor Armstrong works for NASA and is also Professor of Astronomy, University of Kansas, Lawrence, Kansas, USA.
Prof. Armstrong was asked a number of questions about Qur'anic verses dealing with his field of specialisation. He was eventually asked, "You have seen and discovered for yourself the true nature of modern Astronomy by means of modern equipment, rockets, and satellites developed by man. You have also seen how the same facts were mentioned by the Qur'an fourteen centuries ago. So what is your opinion?"
"That is a difficult question which I have been thinking about since our discussion here. I am impressed at how remarkably some of the ancient writings seem to correspond to modern and recent Astronomy. I am not a sufficient scholar of human history to project myself completely and reliably into the circumstances that 1400 years ago would have prevailed.
Certainly, I would like to leave it at that, that what we have seen is remarkable, it may or may not admit of scientific explanation, there may well have to be something beyond what we understand as ordinary human experience to account for the writings that we have seen."
William Hay : Professor of Oceanogprahy, University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, USA.
"I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Qur'an, and I have no way of knowing where they would have come from. But I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages."
And when he was asked about the source of the Qur'an, he replied, "Well, I would think it must be the divine being." [1]
Durja Rao : Professor of Marine Geology teaching at King Abdulaziz University, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.
Sheikh Zindani presented to Prof. Rao many verses dealing with his area of specialisation, and asked: "What do you think of the existence of the scientific information in the Qur'an? How could Prophet Muhammad have known about these facts fourteen centuries ago?"
"It is difficult to imagine that this type of knowledge was existing at that time, around 1400 years back. May be some of the things they have simple idea about, but to describe those things in great detail is very difficult. So this is definitely not simple human knowledge. A normal human being cannot explain this phenomenon in that much detail. So, I thought the information must have come from a supernatural source." [1]
......
written by mimag2005, February 03, 2008 15:06:27
Alfred Kroner : Professor of the Department of Geosciences, University of Mainz, Germany.
Professor Kroner is one of the world's most famous geologists, becoming well known among his colleague scientists for his criticisms against the theories of some of the major scientists in his field. Sheikh cAbdul-Majeed A. Zin dani met with him and presented several Qur'anic verses and Hadith which he studied and commented upon.
"Thinking where Muhammad came from... I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case."
"Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here...
If you combine all these and you combine all these statements that are being made in the Qur'an in terms that relate to the earth and the formation of the earth and science in general, you can basically say that statements made there in many ways are true, they can now be confirmed by scientific methods, and in a way, you can say that the Qur'an is a simple science text book for the simple man. And that many of the statements made in there at that time could not be proven, but that modern scientific methods are now in a position to prove what Muhammad said 1400 years ago." [1]
Yushidi Kusan : Director of the Tokyo Observatory, Tokyo, Japan.
Sheikh Abdul-Majeed A. Zindani presented a number of Qur'anic verses describing the beginnings of the universe and of the heavens, and the relationship of the earth to the heavens. He expressed his astonishment, saying that the Qur'an describes the universe as seen from the highest observation point, everything is distinct and clear.
"I say, I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in Qur'an, and for us modern astronomers have been studying very small piece of the universe. We have concentrated our efforts for understanding of very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts of the sky without thinking about the whole universe. So by reading Qur'an and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe."
Professor Armstrong : Professor Armstrong works for NASA and is also Professor of Astronomy, University of Kansas, Lawrence, Kansas, USA.
Prof. Armstrong was asked a number of questions about Qur'anic verses dealing with his field of specialisation. He was eventually asked, "You have seen and discovered for yourself the true nature of modern Astronomy by means of modern equipment, rockets, and satellites developed by man. You have also seen how the same facts were mentioned by the Qur'an fourteen centuries ago. So what is your opinion?"
"That is a difficult question which I have been thinking about since our discussion here. I am impressed at how remarkably some of the ancient writings seem to correspond to modern and recent Astronomy. I am not a sufficient scholar of human history to project myself completely and reliably into the circumstances that 1400 years ago would have prevailed.
Certainly, I would like to leave it at that, that what we have seen is remarkable, it may or may not admit of scientific explanation, there may well have to be something beyond what we understand as ordinary human experience to account for the writings that we have seen."
William Hay : Professor of Oceanogprahy, University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, USA.
"I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Qur'an, and I have no way of knowing where they would have come from. But I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages."
And when he was asked about the source of the Qur'an, he replied, "Well, I would think it must be the divine being." [1]
Durja Rao : Professor of Marine Geology teaching at King Abdulaziz University, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.
Sheikh Zindani presented to Prof. Rao many verses dealing with his area of specialisation, and asked: "What do you think of the existence of the scientific information in the Qur'an? How could Prophet Muhammad have known about these facts fourteen centuries ago?"
"It is difficult to imagine that this type of knowledge was existing at that time, around 1400 years back. May be some of the things they have simple idea about, but to describe those things in great detail is very difficult. So this is definitely not simple human knowledge. A normal human being cannot explain this phenomenon in that much detail. So, I thought the information must have come from a supernatural source." [1]
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written by mimag2005, February 03, 2008 15:04:36
E. Marshall Johnson : Professor and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and Developmental Biology, and Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute, Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
Author of over 200 publications. Former President of the Teratology Society among other accomplishments. Professor Johnson began to take an interest in the scientific signs in the Qur'an at the 7th Saudi Medical Conference (1982), when a special committee was formed to investigate scientific signs in the Qur'an and Hadith. At first, Professor Johnson refused to accept the existence of such verses in the Qur'an and Hadith. But after a dicussuion with Sheikh Zindani he took an interest and concentrated his research on the internal as well as external development of the fetus.
"...in summary, the Qur'an describes not only the development of external form, but emphasises also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its c
reation and development, emphasising major events recognised by contemporary science."
"As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Qur'an. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I do today and describing things, I could not describe the things that were described...
I see no evidence to refute the concept that this individual Muhammad had to be developing this information from some place... so I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write..." [1]
T.V.N. Persaud : Professor of Anatomy, and Professor of Paediatrics and Child Health, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.
Author and editor of over 20 books, and has published over 181 scientific papers. Co-author of The Developing Human (5th Edition, with Keith L. Moore). He received the J.C.B. Grant Award in 1991. Professor Peraud presented several research papers
"It seems to me that Muhammad was a very ordinary man, he couldn't read, didn't know how to write, in fact he was an illiterate...
We're talking about 1400 years ago, you have some illiterate person making profound statements that are amazingly accurate, of a scientific nature...
I personally can't see how this could be mere chance, there are too many accuracies and like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind reconciling that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which lead him to these statements." [1]
Joe Leigh Simpson : Professor and Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA.
He is the President of the American Fertility Society. He has received many awards, including the Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynaecology Public Recognition Award in 1992. Like many others, Professor Simpson was taken by surprise when he discovered that the Qur'an and Hadith contain verses related to his specialised field of study. When he met with Sheikh Abdul-Majeed A.Zindani, he insisted on verifying the text presented to him from the Qur'an and Hadith.
"... these Hadiths (sayings of Muhammad) could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available at the time of the 'writer'... It follows that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion (Islam) but in fact religion (Islam) may guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches... There exist statements in the Qur'an shown centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the Qur'an having been derived from God." [1]
Gerald C. Goeringer : Professor and Co-ordinator of Medical Embryology in the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington DC, USA.
Sheikh cAbdul-Majeed A.Zindani met with Professor Goeringer and asked him whether in the history of embryology was there any mention of the different stages of embryonic development, or whether there existed any embryological texts at the time of the Prophet. Sheikh Zindani also asked his opinion regarding the terms the Qur'an uses to describe the different phases of fetal development. After several long discussions, he presented a study at the 8th Saudi Medical Conference:
"...In a relatively few ayahs (Qur'anic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development such as classification, terminology, and description existed previously. In most, if not all instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature."]
written by mimag2005, February 03, 2008 15:04:36
E. Marshall Johnson : Professor and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and Developmental Biology, and Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute, Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
Author of over 200 publications. Former President of the Teratology Society among other accomplishments. Professor Johnson began to take an interest in the scientific signs in the Qur'an at the 7th Saudi Medical Conference (1982), when a special committee was formed to investigate scientific signs in the Qur'an and Hadith. At first, Professor Johnson refused to accept the existence of such verses in the Qur'an and Hadith. But after a dicussuion with Sheikh Zindani he took an interest and concentrated his research on the internal as well as external development of the fetus.
"...in summary, the Qur'an describes not only the development of external form, but emphasises also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its c
reation and development, emphasising major events recognised by contemporary science."
"As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Qur'an. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I do today and describing things, I could not describe the things that were described...
I see no evidence to refute the concept that this individual Muhammad had to be developing this information from some place... so I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write..." [1]
T.V.N. Persaud : Professor of Anatomy, and Professor of Paediatrics and Child Health, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.
Author and editor of over 20 books, and has published over 181 scientific papers. Co-author of The Developing Human (5th Edition, with Keith L. Moore). He received the J.C.B. Grant Award in 1991. Professor Peraud presented several research papers
"It seems to me that Muhammad was a very ordinary man, he couldn't read, didn't know how to write, in fact he was an illiterate...
We're talking about 1400 years ago, you have some illiterate person making profound statements that are amazingly accurate, of a scientific nature...
I personally can't see how this could be mere chance, there are too many accuracies and like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind reconciling that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which lead him to these statements." [1]
Joe Leigh Simpson : Professor and Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA.
He is the President of the American Fertility Society. He has received many awards, including the Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynaecology Public Recognition Award in 1992. Like many others, Professor Simpson was taken by surprise when he discovered that the Qur'an and Hadith contain verses related to his specialised field of study. When he met with Sheikh Abdul-Majeed A.Zindani, he insisted on verifying the text presented to him from the Qur'an and Hadith.
"... these Hadiths (sayings of Muhammad) could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available at the time of the 'writer'... It follows that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion (Islam) but in fact religion (Islam) may guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches... There exist statements in the Qur'an shown centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the Qur'an having been derived from God." [1]
Gerald C. Goeringer : Professor and Co-ordinator of Medical Embryology in the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington DC, USA.
Sheikh cAbdul-Majeed A.Zindani met with Professor Goeringer and asked him whether in the history of embryology was there any mention of the different stages of embryonic development, or whether there existed any embryological texts at the time of the Prophet. Sheikh Zindani also asked his opinion regarding the terms the Qur'an uses to describe the different phases of fetal development. After several long discussions, he presented a study at the 8th Saudi Medical Conference:
"...In a relatively few ayahs (Qur'anic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development such as classification, terminology, and description existed previously. In most, if not all instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature."]
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written by mimag2005, February 03, 2008 15:02:03
written by mimag2005, February 03, 2008 15:02:03
written by Rohani Hitam, February 02, 2008 | 01:02:22
6. Or worse, if he doen't exist, are we not wasting our time and life on an unworthy cause?
Those questions are directed to whoever wants to chip in.
Hi Rohani,
Good evening !
In respect to your question above, quote flwg which self-explanatory :
01) Allah Almighty Said:
"We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and INSIDE THEIR SELVES, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things? (The Noble Quran, 41:53)"
02) Allah Almighty said: "Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke...(The Noble Quran, 41:11)"
A new star forming out of a cloud of gas and dust (nebula), which is one of the remnants of the "smoke" that was the origin of the whole universe. (The Space Atlas, Heather and Henbest, page 50)
03) "And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." (The Qur'an, 51:47)
"The universe starts with a Big Bang, expands to a maximum dimension, then recontracts and collapses (to the Big Crunch); no more awe-inspiring prediction was ever made." Quotation from Charles W. Misner, Kip S. Thorne and John A. Wheeler in "Gravitation", W. H. Freeman, San Francisco, 1973, page 1196.
Visit : http://www.evidencesofcreation..._01_02.htm
04) Allah Almighty Said: "And when the heaven splitteth asunder and becometh ROSY LIKE PAINT - (The Noble Quran, 55:37)"
What Allah Almighty is Saying here is that when Galaxies explode, they form a rose-shaped explosion. He is also telling us that the Universe will all turn into exploded galaxies looking like roses when the Day of Judgment happens.
Visit http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap991031.html
05) "And in the livestock there is a lesson for you: we provide you with a drink from their bellies. From the midst of digested food and blood, you get pure milk, delicious for the drinkers. (The Noble Quran, 16:66)"
Non-Muslim Scientists' Comments On The Qur'an
Keith L. Moore :
Professor Emeritus, Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology, University of Toronto. Distinguished embryologist and the author of several medical textbooks, including Clinically Oriented Anatomy (3rd Edition) and The Developing Human (5th Edition, with T.V.N. Persaud).
Dr. Moore was a former President of the Canadian Association of Anatomists, and of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists. He was honoured by the Canadian Association of Anatomists with the prestigious J.C.B. Grant Award and in 1994 he received the Honoured Member Award of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists "for outstanding contributions to the field of clinical anatomy."
"For the past three years, I have worked with the Embryology Committee of King cAbdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, helping them to interpret the many statements in the Qur'an and Sunnah referring to human reproduction and prenatal development. At first I was astonished by the accuracy of the statements that were recorded in the 7th century AD, before the science of embryology was established. Although I was aware of the glorious history of Muslim scientists in the 10th century AD, and some of their contributions to Medicine, I knew nothing about the religious facts and beliefs contained in the Qur'an and Sunnah."[2]
At a conference in Cairo he presented a research paper and stated:
"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah." [1]
Professor Moore also stated that:
"...Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Qur'an and Sunnah. The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge.
"The intensive studies of the Qur'an and Hadith in the last four years have revealed a system of classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D... the descriptions in the Qur'an cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century..."[1]
6. Or worse, if he doen't exist, are we not wasting our time and life on an unworthy cause?
Those questions are directed to whoever wants to chip in.
Hi Rohani,
Good evening !
In respect to your question above, quote flwg which self-explanatory :
01) Allah Almighty Said:
"We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and INSIDE THEIR SELVES, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things? (The Noble Quran, 41:53)"
02) Allah Almighty said: "Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke...(The Noble Quran, 41:11)"
A new star forming out of a cloud of gas and dust (nebula), which is one of the remnants of the "smoke" that was the origin of the whole universe. (The Space Atlas, Heather and Henbest, page 50)
03) "And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." (The Qur'an, 51:47)
"The universe starts with a Big Bang, expands to a maximum dimension, then recontracts and collapses (to the Big Crunch); no more awe-inspiring prediction was ever made." Quotation from Charles W. Misner, Kip S. Thorne and John A. Wheeler in "Gravitation", W. H. Freeman, San Francisco, 1973, page 1196.
Visit : http://www.evidencesofcreation..._01_02.htm
04) Allah Almighty Said: "And when the heaven splitteth asunder and becometh ROSY LIKE PAINT - (The Noble Quran, 55:37)"
What Allah Almighty is Saying here is that when Galaxies explode, they form a rose-shaped explosion. He is also telling us that the Universe will all turn into exploded galaxies looking like roses when the Day of Judgment happens.
Visit http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap991031.html
05) "And in the livestock there is a lesson for you: we provide you with a drink from their bellies. From the midst of digested food and blood, you get pure milk, delicious for the drinkers. (The Noble Quran, 16:66)"
Non-Muslim Scientists' Comments On The Qur'an
Keith L. Moore :
Professor Emeritus, Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology, University of Toronto. Distinguished embryologist and the author of several medical textbooks, including Clinically Oriented Anatomy (3rd Edition) and The Developing Human (5th Edition, with T.V.N. Persaud).
Dr. Moore was a former President of the Canadian Association of Anatomists, and of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists. He was honoured by the Canadian Association of Anatomists with the prestigious J.C.B. Grant Award and in 1994 he received the Honoured Member Award of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists "for outstanding contributions to the field of clinical anatomy."
"For the past three years, I have worked with the Embryology Committee of King cAbdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, helping them to interpret the many statements in the Qur'an and Sunnah referring to human reproduction and prenatal development. At first I was astonished by the accuracy of the statements that were recorded in the 7th century AD, before the science of embryology was established. Although I was aware of the glorious history of Muslim scientists in the 10th century AD, and some of their contributions to Medicine, I knew nothing about the religious facts and beliefs contained in the Qur'an and Sunnah."[2]
At a conference in Cairo he presented a research paper and stated:
"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah." [1]
Professor Moore also stated that:
"...Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Qur'an and Sunnah. The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge.
"The intensive studies of the Qur'an and Hadith in the last four years have revealed a system of classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D... the descriptions in the Qur'an cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century..."[1]
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written by Panca Indera, February 03, 2008 14:23:26
written by Panca Indera, February 03, 2008 14:23:26
Dear OrdinaryMan,
What I can make out of your postings are as below:
OrdinaryMan’s Beliefs:
1. Man possessed the knowledge to recognize and know things around Him
2. The Five bodily senses are enough to acquire this Knowledge.
3. Religion is an excuse to kill.
4. God is “The Big Bangâ€Â.(Ultimate Energy)
5. God is not jealous of his creation and it does not care.
6. God does not even know of OrdinaryMan’s existence!
7. Believes in Souls.
8. Created his own soul.
9. When he dies, his soul dies with him…. Unless he is able to liberate it.
10. Where he wants to go with a liberated soul is entirely up to him. Not God.
11. God is an Idiot for creating Satan.(if there is A God)
12. Believing in God does not necessitate him to worship Him.
13. There is neither heaven nor hell
14. We can evolve into pure energy with a consciousness which will have everlasting life.
Q.E.D.
1. OrdinaryMan, you do not have a religion nor you really believe in God.
2. You think(not believe) that you will finally evolved into Nothingness after a few re-incarnations (the reverse of Big Bang).
3. With all the pork and beer, Admiral Tojo consumed, do you think there is a possiblility that he had the life of a rat or something and his next life he maybe a drunken pig(unless he starts to meditate and start doing penance). (I hope AJ can take a joke)
OrdinaryMan, stay on this course of beliefs you too may end up as a Bayan tree and meditate yourself into fire wood. Who is to say. Afterall your liberated soul is free to drift into any living thing right?
You have a 50-50 chance either way. If you really live a good clean life you without sex or food and just meditate, your body will be so pure that you will disappear altogether like the young Nepalese Monk recently.
You cannot hope to evolve into Nothingness or pure consciousness.( even pure energy is a form of matter (Energy is converted from one form to another, but it is never created or destroyed. E=MC2.
Big Bang is the result of near instantaneous creation of matter and anti-matter resulting in the released of immeasurable amount of energy and matter(most of it Hydrogen). Ever wonder what created or caused the big Bang in the first place?
Or was it self-created(GOD created Himself(Bang! Bang! before creating everything else, Wow!).
OrdinaryMan, I think you should stick to your beer and little universe of Carlsberg and Tiger and whatever that will help to kill your braincells and damaged your liver. Funnyman indeed!
What I can make out of your postings are as below:
OrdinaryMan’s Beliefs:
1. Man possessed the knowledge to recognize and know things around Him
2. The Five bodily senses are enough to acquire this Knowledge.
3. Religion is an excuse to kill.
4. God is “The Big Bangâ€Â.(Ultimate Energy)
5. God is not jealous of his creation and it does not care.
6. God does not even know of OrdinaryMan’s existence!
7. Believes in Souls.
8. Created his own soul.
9. When he dies, his soul dies with him…. Unless he is able to liberate it.
10. Where he wants to go with a liberated soul is entirely up to him. Not God.
11. God is an Idiot for creating Satan.(if there is A God)
12. Believing in God does not necessitate him to worship Him.
13. There is neither heaven nor hell
14. We can evolve into pure energy with a consciousness which will have everlasting life.
Q.E.D.
1. OrdinaryMan, you do not have a religion nor you really believe in God.
2. You think(not believe) that you will finally evolved into Nothingness after a few re-incarnations (the reverse of Big Bang).
3. With all the pork and beer, Admiral Tojo consumed, do you think there is a possiblility that he had the life of a rat or something and his next life he maybe a drunken pig(unless he starts to meditate and start doing penance). (I hope AJ can take a joke)
OrdinaryMan, stay on this course of beliefs you too may end up as a Bayan tree and meditate yourself into fire wood. Who is to say. Afterall your liberated soul is free to drift into any living thing right?
You have a 50-50 chance either way. If you really live a good clean life you without sex or food and just meditate, your body will be so pure that you will disappear altogether like the young Nepalese Monk recently.
You cannot hope to evolve into Nothingness or pure consciousness.( even pure energy is a form of matter (Energy is converted from one form to another, but it is never created or destroyed. E=MC2.
Big Bang is the result of near instantaneous creation of matter and anti-matter resulting in the released of immeasurable amount of energy and matter(most of it Hydrogen). Ever wonder what created or caused the big Bang in the first place?
Or was it self-created(GOD created Himself(Bang! Bang! before creating everything else, Wow!).
OrdinaryMan, I think you should stick to your beer and little universe of Carlsberg and Tiger and whatever that will help to kill your braincells and damaged your liver. Funnyman indeed!
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written by Rohani Hitam, February 03, 2008 06:58:46
written by Rohani Hitam, February 03, 2008 06:58:46
And I don’t think this is possible after death. I believe that when you die what little conscious energy you possess will linger on earth for a short while. Then it will soon dissipate into nothing - like a drop of ink in a glass of water - my concept of a ghost. If you can find a way to enhance this energy (or soul) of yours while you are ALIVE; to nourish it to a point where it is strong enough to exist without a container (our body); then you can continue living in this pure form.
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Sounds very unscientific. Hope you can prove something for us to belive this.
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Sounds very unscientific. Hope you can prove something for us to belive this.
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written by OrdinaryMan, February 02, 2008 18:00:31
written by OrdinaryMan, February 02, 2008 18:00:31
Oh dear Panca,
You've got the whole perspective wrong on the first question. You are taking two beings into concern - me walking and God hovering above. That is NOT what I'm getting at. Let's revise your analogy to fit my question. I am walking. I saw the car coming and I know it is going to hit me if I cross the road. Yet I still cross the road. Doesn't that make me an idiot? That's what God did by creating Satan.
Believing in something does not necessitate you to worship that something. I believe in you. But that doesn’t mean I have to worship you.
But, Panca, I think all these analogies are beside the point.
I'll tell you what I really believe in. I believe man is not the end product of evolution. We can evolve into something higher - pure energy with a consciousness which will have everlasting life.
Perhaps this is a more logical explanation when one says one wants to get closer to the Creator.
And I don’t think this is possible after death. I believe that when you die what little conscious energy you possess will linger on earth for a short while. Then it will soon dissipate into nothing - like a drop of ink in a glass of water - my concept of a ghost. If you can find a way to enhance this energy (or soul) of yours while you are ALIVE; to nourish it to a point where it is strong enough to exist without a container (our body); then you can continue living in this pure form.
They said we’re only using ten percent of our brains. Perhaps if can use more of the gray matter inside us we can evolve further. All this, I’m afraid, has nothing to do with God or Satan or heaven or hell. That was what I meant in my very first posting in this forum. We may be wasting our time going to the church or mosque or temple to pray. We may be barking at the wrong tree.
Am I becoming a funny man again?
Cheers to all!
You've got the whole perspective wrong on the first question. You are taking two beings into concern - me walking and God hovering above. That is NOT what I'm getting at. Let's revise your analogy to fit my question. I am walking. I saw the car coming and I know it is going to hit me if I cross the road. Yet I still cross the road. Doesn't that make me an idiot? That's what God did by creating Satan.
Believing in something does not necessitate you to worship that something. I believe in you. But that doesn’t mean I have to worship you.
But, Panca, I think all these analogies are beside the point.
I'll tell you what I really believe in. I believe man is not the end product of evolution. We can evolve into something higher - pure energy with a consciousness which will have everlasting life.
Perhaps this is a more logical explanation when one says one wants to get closer to the Creator.
And I don’t think this is possible after death. I believe that when you die what little conscious energy you possess will linger on earth for a short while. Then it will soon dissipate into nothing - like a drop of ink in a glass of water - my concept of a ghost. If you can find a way to enhance this energy (or soul) of yours while you are ALIVE; to nourish it to a point where it is strong enough to exist without a container (our body); then you can continue living in this pure form.
They said we’re only using ten percent of our brains. Perhaps if can use more of the gray matter inside us we can evolve further. All this, I’m afraid, has nothing to do with God or Satan or heaven or hell. That was what I meant in my very first posting in this forum. We may be wasting our time going to the church or mosque or temple to pray. We may be barking at the wrong tree.
Am I becoming a funny man again?
Cheers to all!
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written by Rohani Hitam, February 02, 2008 14:25:32
written by Rohani Hitam, February 02, 2008 14:25:32
Hi Panca Indera,
Those questions are directed to whoever wants to chip in.
Answer to my 1st question on why we cannot get God to sit among us and debate on the peoblems on earth.
Those questions are directed to whoever wants to chip in.
Answer to my 1st question on why we cannot get God to sit among us and debate on the peoblems on earth.
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written by Panca Indera, February 02, 2008 06:16:37
written by Panca Indera, February 02, 2008 06:16:37
Dear RH
>>I think, to believe in God for the sake of being on the safe side is synonymous with being perocial(parochial) and self centeredness.
Why do you believe in God then, if not to save yourself?
Would you still believe in Him , if He says you will go to hell if you believe in Him?
We can provide all the reasons on His existence but are we able to:
Who are you trying to kid or fool?
Read below:
[31.27] And were every tree that is in the earth (made into) pens and the sea (to supply it with ink), with seven more seas to increase it, the words of Allah would not come to an end; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
Mankind can not, repeat CAN NOT! Provide all the reasons on His PRESENT!
5. God created man and he allows violents committed by the same creature He created. Why?
You don’t see the rational because you cannot understand or have not seen the Master Plan. Try harder read the Quran more.
If you think that He is unfair, promotes violence and created organisms that kill children, is there a necessity to associate yourself with him?
Who are you directing the Question to please?
6. Or worse, if he doen't exist, are we not wasting our time and life on an unworthy cause?
Again, Who are you directing the Question to please?
>>Answer and you will ponder why?
Ponder and ask why, not the other way around.
>>To have faith is to accept Him.
To accept HIM is to have faith in His creation.
To deny his existence is a prerogative.
To deny HIM is not a prerogative or privilege. It is an uninformed choice.
A choice nevertheless that can be changed anytime.
I like your Name
>>I think, to believe in God for the sake of being on the safe side is synonymous with being perocial(parochial) and self centeredness.
Why do you believe in God then, if not to save yourself?
Would you still believe in Him , if He says you will go to hell if you believe in Him?
We can provide all the reasons on His existence but are we able to:
Who are you trying to kid or fool?
Read below:
[31.27] And were every tree that is in the earth (made into) pens and the sea (to supply it with ink), with seven more seas to increase it, the words of Allah would not come to an end; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
Mankind can not, repeat CAN NOT! Provide all the reasons on His PRESENT!
5. God created man and he allows violents committed by the same creature He created. Why?
You don’t see the rational because you cannot understand or have not seen the Master Plan. Try harder read the Quran more.
If you think that He is unfair, promotes violence and created organisms that kill children, is there a necessity to associate yourself with him?
Who are you directing the Question to please?
6. Or worse, if he doen't exist, are we not wasting our time and life on an unworthy cause?
Again, Who are you directing the Question to please?
>>Answer and you will ponder why?
Ponder and ask why, not the other way around.
>>To have faith is to accept Him.
To accept HIM is to have faith in His creation.
To deny his existence is a prerogative.
To deny HIM is not a prerogative or privilege. It is an uninformed choice.
A choice nevertheless that can be changed anytime.
I like your Name
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written by Panca Indera, February 02, 2008 05:48:21
written by Panca Indera, February 02, 2008 05:48:21
Dear OdinaryMan
1. The science of Omniscience. An analogy.
"Suppose you are walking along one side of a deserted country road towards your destination that happens to be on the opposite side around a blind corner.
Coming from the opposite direction, is a speeding car that you are unaware of.
Now imagine that God is hovering above the whole scene able to see the speeding car coming around the corner on one side and you walking on the other side on the blind corner beginning to cross the road to reach your destination.
GOD saw the past, seeing the present and the future actions unfolding before His “EYESâ€Â, while you will only see the oncoming speeding car at the very last moment of crossing the present). If you choose not to cross at that moment it will give a different ending then say, to cross at that moment."
note: The decision to cross the road is yours only and God did not intervene, to give you the free will to decide. Satan was given the same choice and he made the wrong choice. Because of that Satan then decided to corrupt man as well just to prove his point. A Sore loser. Instead of admitting his mistakes, he wanted others to make the same mistakes
>>To me beer is good, to you beer is bad. Where do we draw the line?
Every action has a cause and effect. Drinking beer in moderation maybe good to you. But for others who are not able to control their habits and those who neglect their families and abuse others. Drunken driving etc etc its BAD.
You decide who to support, The greedy Capitalists who only think of profits by selling more beers or the poor and weak who needs to be protected?
Think of the Billions that could be spend on poverty eradication, education, health and food aid at home and abroad.
>>Can I say I have faith if I believe there is no god?
Yes. Not believing in God is a faith among many faiths, because it is a system of beliefs based on accepted values regardless what the values are.
>>But I do believe in God and I do believe in the soul.
You are taking two steps forward and three steps backward by believing in ghosts, reincarnation and no one to worship.?????
>>To me, the soul is just a form of intelligent energy which resides within me.. Where I want to go with a liberated soul is entirely up to me. Not God.
Where does that intelligent energy come from?
If it comes from nowhere, end of story. If it comes from God, don’t you think He has a say in it and and should be thankful to?
>>But are you sure you are on the right path?
Allah delivers on all His Promises. I am on a Win-Win situation. Even if I lose, I win. Are you ?
>>Why should one be burdened by sin that has not been committed?
Using similar logic, one will be burdened by one own sins committed during one’s lifetime. Nobody will get a free ride!
>>why create Satan in the first place?
To test Man, Only the worthy ones get to meet God.
>>Doesn’t make sense does it?
Absolutely makes sense! Ying and Yang
OrdinaryMan you do have a long way to go, if you do choose to pursue the right path.
But pursue it you must if you truly believe in the Creator.Don't ignore HIM because He will ignore you and you are the loser.
Have a good day.
1. The science of Omniscience. An analogy.
"Suppose you are walking along one side of a deserted country road towards your destination that happens to be on the opposite side around a blind corner.
Coming from the opposite direction, is a speeding car that you are unaware of.
Now imagine that God is hovering above the whole scene able to see the speeding car coming around the corner on one side and you walking on the other side on the blind corner beginning to cross the road to reach your destination.
GOD saw the past, seeing the present and the future actions unfolding before His “EYESâ€Â, while you will only see the oncoming speeding car at the very last moment of crossing the present). If you choose not to cross at that moment it will give a different ending then say, to cross at that moment."
note: The decision to cross the road is yours only and God did not intervene, to give you the free will to decide. Satan was given the same choice and he made the wrong choice. Because of that Satan then decided to corrupt man as well just to prove his point. A Sore loser. Instead of admitting his mistakes, he wanted others to make the same mistakes
>>To me beer is good, to you beer is bad. Where do we draw the line?
Every action has a cause and effect. Drinking beer in moderation maybe good to you. But for others who are not able to control their habits and those who neglect their families and abuse others. Drunken driving etc etc its BAD.
You decide who to support, The greedy Capitalists who only think of profits by selling more beers or the poor and weak who needs to be protected?
Think of the Billions that could be spend on poverty eradication, education, health and food aid at home and abroad.
>>Can I say I have faith if I believe there is no god?
Yes. Not believing in God is a faith among many faiths, because it is a system of beliefs based on accepted values regardless what the values are.
>>But I do believe in God and I do believe in the soul.
You are taking two steps forward and three steps backward by believing in ghosts, reincarnation and no one to worship.?????
>>To me, the soul is just a form of intelligent energy which resides within me.. Where I want to go with a liberated soul is entirely up to me. Not God.
Where does that intelligent energy come from?
If it comes from nowhere, end of story. If it comes from God, don’t you think He has a say in it and and should be thankful to?
>>But are you sure you are on the right path?
Allah delivers on all His Promises. I am on a Win-Win situation. Even if I lose, I win. Are you ?
>>Why should one be burdened by sin that has not been committed?
Using similar logic, one will be burdened by one own sins committed during one’s lifetime. Nobody will get a free ride!
>>why create Satan in the first place?
To test Man, Only the worthy ones get to meet God.
>>Doesn’t make sense does it?
Absolutely makes sense! Ying and Yang
OrdinaryMan you do have a long way to go, if you do choose to pursue the right path.
But pursue it you must if you truly believe in the Creator.Don't ignore HIM because He will ignore you and you are the loser.
Have a good day.
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written by OrdinaryMan, February 02, 2008 00:04:18
written by OrdinaryMan, February 02, 2008 00:04:18
Dear Panca Indera,
Thank you for trying to enlightening me. But, unfortunately, your answers seemed to confuse me even more. Your only distinct answer was the one to my third question about the Original sin. I agree with you 100 percent. Why should one be burdened by sin that has not been committed?
Let’s go back to question one: You believe in God.
‘To excel as an extraordinary man
Do question things that don’t make sense’
Very well said, indeed. I have a more puzzling question here. I have been taught that God is all-knowing; he knows the past, the present and the future. He is total omniscience.
We read from the scriptures of God the Creator. Before even creating this earthly world He created heaven and hell. And He created the angels. We all knew of Satan, the devil who was the rebellious angel that God cast down to hell.
This really puzzles me. If God is omniscience and already knows the future; he knows Satan is going to rebel against him – why create Satan in the first place? Doesn’t make sense does it?
Q2: ‘Where do you think God locate and reward or punish the Good and the bad.’
Hmm… Very complicated here. What is good? What is bad? To me beer is good, to you beer is bad. Where do we draw the line?
Last question: ‘Faith can be based on beliefs on real and universal values or can be based on slanted or prejudices or “acceptable Norms… etc. etcâ€Â
So faith is a belief. This belief is based on this, or that, or that… No questions asked? Can I say I have faith if I believe there is no god?
But I do believe in God. I believe God (for lack of another word) is the creator of the universe. The Big Bang. And the buck stops right there. The rest is evolution. No heaven, no hell. There is no image to this god. It is not a jealous god and it does not care if I worship it or not. In fact it does not even know of my existence!
And I do believe in the soul. To me, the soul is just a form of intelligent energy which resides within me. More specifically, inside my brain. God does not create my soul. I do. When I die my soul dies with me…. Unless I am able to liberate it. That is my purpose on earth. I am given one life to liberate this creation of mine so that it can live on without my body. Where I want to go with a liberated soul is entirely up to me. Not God.
Perhaps with this belief, I am wandering on the wrong path. But are you sure you are on the right path?
Personally, I think this belief (or Faith) of mine answers more of my questions. It answers the concept of incarnations, of ghosts, and of other supernatural phenomena. Religion does not come into the equation at all! No one to worship, no sins to atone for, no worries!
Cheers!
Thank you for trying to enlightening me. But, unfortunately, your answers seemed to confuse me even more. Your only distinct answer was the one to my third question about the Original sin. I agree with you 100 percent. Why should one be burdened by sin that has not been committed?
Let’s go back to question one: You believe in God.
‘To excel as an extraordinary man
Do question things that don’t make sense’
Very well said, indeed. I have a more puzzling question here. I have been taught that God is all-knowing; he knows the past, the present and the future. He is total omniscience.
We read from the scriptures of God the Creator. Before even creating this earthly world He created heaven and hell. And He created the angels. We all knew of Satan, the devil who was the rebellious angel that God cast down to hell.
This really puzzles me. If God is omniscience and already knows the future; he knows Satan is going to rebel against him – why create Satan in the first place? Doesn’t make sense does it?
Q2: ‘Where do you think God locate and reward or punish the Good and the bad.’
Hmm… Very complicated here. What is good? What is bad? To me beer is good, to you beer is bad. Where do we draw the line?
Last question: ‘Faith can be based on beliefs on real and universal values or can be based on slanted or prejudices or “acceptable Norms… etc. etcâ€Â
So faith is a belief. This belief is based on this, or that, or that… No questions asked? Can I say I have faith if I believe there is no god?
But I do believe in God. I believe God (for lack of another word) is the creator of the universe. The Big Bang. And the buck stops right there. The rest is evolution. No heaven, no hell. There is no image to this god. It is not a jealous god and it does not care if I worship it or not. In fact it does not even know of my existence!
And I do believe in the soul. To me, the soul is just a form of intelligent energy which resides within me. More specifically, inside my brain. God does not create my soul. I do. When I die my soul dies with me…. Unless I am able to liberate it. That is my purpose on earth. I am given one life to liberate this creation of mine so that it can live on without my body. Where I want to go with a liberated soul is entirely up to me. Not God.
Perhaps with this belief, I am wandering on the wrong path. But are you sure you are on the right path?
Personally, I think this belief (or Faith) of mine answers more of my questions. It answers the concept of incarnations, of ghosts, and of other supernatural phenomena. Religion does not come into the equation at all! No one to worship, no sins to atone for, no worries!
Cheers!
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written by Rohani Hitam, February 01, 2008 17:02:22
written by Rohani Hitam, February 01, 2008 17:02:22
If there is really No God, whatever the punter bets ( believe or disbelieve) makes no difference. He wins anyway.(no heaven or hell)
But if there is really a God, the punter only WINS if he bets on “Believe in Godâ€Â. If he bets on disbelieve he will lose. So betting on the existence of God is safer and preferred than disbelieve.(logical)
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I think, to believe in God for the sake of being on the safe side is synonymous with being perocial and self centredness.
We can provide all the resons on His existence but are we able to:
1. Get God to sit among us and debate on the peoblems on earth.
2. See all the astrocities and violents around us but yet no supreme intervention to protect the innocent and the children.
3. See all the diseases related to children that led to permanent blindness and paralysis knowing that everything is God creation.
4. There are people committed to Him but suffer from suppression, incrimination and often anhiliation.
5. God created man and he allows violents committed by the same creature He created. Why?
If you think that He is unfair, promotes violence and created organisms that kill children, is there a necessity to associate yourself with him?
6. Or worse, if he doen't exist, are we not wasting our time and life on an unworthy cause?
Answer and you will ponder why? To have faith is to accept Him. To deny his existence is a prerogative.
But if there is really a God, the punter only WINS if he bets on “Believe in Godâ€Â. If he bets on disbelieve he will lose. So betting on the existence of God is safer and preferred than disbelieve.(logical)
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I think, to believe in God for the sake of being on the safe side is synonymous with being perocial and self centredness.
We can provide all the resons on His existence but are we able to:
1. Get God to sit among us and debate on the peoblems on earth.
2. See all the astrocities and violents around us but yet no supreme intervention to protect the innocent and the children.
3. See all the diseases related to children that led to permanent blindness and paralysis knowing that everything is God creation.
4. There are people committed to Him but suffer from suppression, incrimination and often anhiliation.
5. God created man and he allows violents committed by the same creature He created. Why?
If you think that He is unfair, promotes violence and created organisms that kill children, is there a necessity to associate yourself with him?
6. Or worse, if he doen't exist, are we not wasting our time and life on an unworthy cause?
Answer and you will ponder why? To have faith is to accept Him. To deny his existence is a prerogative.
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written by Panca Indera, February 01, 2008 06:28:27
written by Panca Indera, February 01, 2008 06:28:27
Dear Extra-OrdinaryMan,
Thank yourself for the courage to speak-up like a True Blue. I salute you!
>>I will take this opportunity to ask him (or her) some basic questions that have been bugging me ever since I left missionary school.
I am humbly honored and will try my best. Remember, I can only facilitate your learning and decision making.
>>Is there really a God who created man? I mean directly, not out of the cosmos through evolution?
Cool, Lets begin with a Punter’s bet. Someone told me this story sometimes back.
If there is really No God, whatever the punter bets ( believe or disbelieve) makes no difference. He wins anyway.(no heaven or hell)
But if there is really a God, the punter only WINS if he bets on “Believe in Godâ€Â. If he bets on disbelieve he will lose. So betting on the existence of God is safer and preferred than disbelieve.(logical)
Note: I don’t gamble and don’t recommend gambling, but to me this is one safe bet. A sure winner.
>>Is there really a heaven or a hell?
Where do you think, would God locate and reward or punish the Good and the bad.
>>In Christianity there is such a thing as Original Sin. Is there one in Islam?
There is No Original Sin. All humans begin life as pure and sinless .
Note: I could never comprehend why a baby be burdened by sin that has not been committed yet).could you?
Is Faith blind?
Justice is blind (all equal before law) but faith may or may not . Why?
Faith can be based on beliefs on real and universal values or can be based on slanted or prejudices or “acceptable Norms in societies or social orders â€Â
Knowledge is for sharing and Gratefulness is for God Only and the mother who carried you for 9 months and bore you in pain. Take care of your mother and show kindness.
To excel as an extraordinary man
Do questions things that don’t make sense
Accepts not all that is heard
Until it comes from the third
Seeking knowledge not for glory
Applying for the benefit of humanity
Meanwhile I’ll join Admiral for a glass of beer.
Soda water with a slice of lime on the rocks for me thanks, cheers!
BTW medical news told me a beer a day keeps the doctor away!
So does an apple a day.
Good luck with your journey of discovery.
Thank yourself for the courage to speak-up like a True Blue. I salute you!
>>I will take this opportunity to ask him (or her) some basic questions that have been bugging me ever since I left missionary school.
I am humbly honored and will try my best. Remember, I can only facilitate your learning and decision making.
>>Is there really a God who created man? I mean directly, not out of the cosmos through evolution?
Cool, Lets begin with a Punter’s bet. Someone told me this story sometimes back.
If there is really No God, whatever the punter bets ( believe or disbelieve) makes no difference. He wins anyway.(no heaven or hell)
But if there is really a God, the punter only WINS if he bets on “Believe in Godâ€Â. If he bets on disbelieve he will lose. So betting on the existence of God is safer and preferred than disbelieve.(logical)
Note: I don’t gamble and don’t recommend gambling, but to me this is one safe bet. A sure winner.
>>Is there really a heaven or a hell?
Where do you think, would God locate and reward or punish the Good and the bad.
>>In Christianity there is such a thing as Original Sin. Is there one in Islam?
There is No Original Sin. All humans begin life as pure and sinless .
Note: I could never comprehend why a baby be burdened by sin that has not been committed yet).could you?
Is Faith blind?
Justice is blind (all equal before law) but faith may or may not . Why?
Faith can be based on beliefs on real and universal values or can be based on slanted or prejudices or “acceptable Norms in societies or social orders â€Â
Knowledge is for sharing and Gratefulness is for God Only and the mother who carried you for 9 months and bore you in pain. Take care of your mother and show kindness.
To excel as an extraordinary man
Do questions things that don’t make sense
Accepts not all that is heard
Until it comes from the third
Seeking knowledge not for glory
Applying for the benefit of humanity
Meanwhile I’ll join Admiral for a glass of beer.
Soda water with a slice of lime on the rocks for me thanks, cheers!
BTW medical news told me a beer a day keeps the doctor away!
So does an apple a day.
Good luck with your journey of discovery.
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written by OrdinaryMan, February 01, 2008 02:00:59
written by OrdinaryMan, February 01, 2008 02:00:59
Dear Panca Indera, Admiral Tojo…
I think this name-calling business is sidetracking us away from the real issue here. Anyway I think Panca is the most knowledgeable one here. So I will take this opportunity to ask him (or her) some basic questions that have been bagging me ever since I left missionary school.
Is there really a God who created man? I mean directly, not out of the cosmos through evolution?
Is there really a heaven or a hell?
In Christianity there is such a thing as Original Sin. Is there one in Islam?
Is Faith blind?
Please enlighten me, my dear Panca. I will be forever grateful to you for doing so.
Alas I am just an ordinary man
I see things as an ordinary man can
Should I take things as I’ve been taught?
And accept them and question naught?
Meanwhile I’ll join Admiral for a glass of beer.
Cheers!
BTW medical news told me a beer a day keeps the doctor away!
I think this name-calling business is sidetracking us away from the real issue here. Anyway I think Panca is the most knowledgeable one here. So I will take this opportunity to ask him (or her) some basic questions that have been bagging me ever since I left missionary school.
Is there really a God who created man? I mean directly, not out of the cosmos through evolution?
Is there really a heaven or a hell?
In Christianity there is such a thing as Original Sin. Is there one in Islam?
Is Faith blind?
Please enlighten me, my dear Panca. I will be forever grateful to you for doing so.
Alas I am just an ordinary man
I see things as an ordinary man can
Should I take things as I’ve been taught?
And accept them and question naught?
Meanwhile I’ll join Admiral for a glass of beer.
Cheers!
BTW medical news told me a beer a day keeps the doctor away!
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written by Panca Indera, January 31, 2008 16:03:53
written by Panca Indera, January 31, 2008 16:03:53
Dear Admiral Tojo
>>You do not drink beer, you do not eat pork, you do not know how to enjoy GOD's (NOT your STONE God) blessings on earth. So who is the loser here????
Have you tried Buds, Carlton, XXX, Smithwick, Carlsberg, Tiger, Singha, Guinness, Heineken, Cognac , Amargnac, Black Label, Jim Bean, Jack Daniel, Lameson, Irish, Scotch, Pernod, Taquilla, Vodka, etc etc...eat Pork, Bacon, Ham, Gammon, Black Pudding, etc etc?,
I never did missed them then, but now I enjoys God’s Grace and Mercy every single nano second of my life here on earth.
(scene during the great interview;
>>Panca Indera : GOD, I followed my Mullah and have never eaten pork nor drink beer on Earth.
>>GOD: You numbskull, these are my blessings to you and why did you listen to your Mullahs? Are they GODs??? Go to hell now! Ha! Ha! (The last laugh)
Tsk! Tsk! name calling again, Really, you must be short on points and intelligence.
Did anybody ever teach you how to act in public?
You think your parents will be proud of you?
A real Tojo, if I may say so myself.
cheerio Tojo! Oink! Oink!
>>You do not drink beer, you do not eat pork, you do not know how to enjoy GOD's (NOT your STONE God) blessings on earth. So who is the loser here????
Have you tried Buds, Carlton, XXX, Smithwick, Carlsberg, Tiger, Singha, Guinness, Heineken, Cognac , Amargnac, Black Label, Jim Bean, Jack Daniel, Lameson, Irish, Scotch, Pernod, Taquilla, Vodka, etc etc...eat Pork, Bacon, Ham, Gammon, Black Pudding, etc etc?,
I never did missed them then, but now I enjoys God’s Grace and Mercy every single nano second of my life here on earth.
(scene during the great interview;
>>Panca Indera : GOD, I followed my Mullah and have never eaten pork nor drink beer on Earth.
>>GOD: You numbskull, these are my blessings to you and why did you listen to your Mullahs? Are they GODs??? Go to hell now! Ha! Ha! (The last laugh)
Tsk! Tsk! name calling again, Really, you must be short on points and intelligence.
Did anybody ever teach you how to act in public?
You think your parents will be proud of you?
A real Tojo, if I may say so myself.
cheerio Tojo! Oink! Oink!
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written by Panca Indera, January 31, 2008 15:51:13
written by Panca Indera, January 31, 2008 15:51:13
Dear Admiral Tojo,
You still have not answer my question on your name sake? Let me jog your memory.
He tried committing suicide by shooting himself at his heart, but missed, He was later executed. I don’t make up the story and it isn’t Hogwash either.(Oink! Oink!)
>>Pancut didera, (Tsk, Tsk, Shame on you for stooping so low. (I just explained your what your name means but you are making up dirty names). Can you not debate like a gentleman?
name calling again, Really, you must be short on points and intelligence.
>>These Arab wannabes are a poor copy cat and dumb too.
Hmmm!
Judgmental without a shred of evidence. You are ignorant as well as arrogant (bodoh sombong). History have shown that the Arabs and Persians as well as other Muslims have advanced science and knowledge by leaps and bounces. So who is the idiot?
Note; I do not agree to the September 11 bombing
>>So my message is very clear to you and your stone worshipping kind, bring Arab Facism into my backyard and kabooom!!!!
You are too pathetic to be worth killing, But you are definitely worth enlightening, for the time being.
>>written by temenggong, January 31, 2008 | 07:41:20
>>If usernames are indicative, then you boys better listen to me before you get into trouble.
Temenggong is an ancient Malay title of nobility, usually given to the chief of public security. Are you that ancient my dear Datuk.? Should try to apply for Musa Hassan post.Maybe you can do a better job!
>>So you think a name makes all the difference. I chose the name Ordinary Man because I consider myself just an ordinary man;
Spoken like a true gentleman.
>>Not a self-proclaimed grandiloquent and knowledgeable man.
Who?RPK?
>>If you think a name such as Panca Indera conveys a sense of superiority and power you better think again.
I always think a lot before I write, you should sty it sometimes!
Look-up the Kamus, since you have mistranslated what it means.
You are not judged by your name but by what you really are. Obviously you're one who judge the book by its cover.
You are what, say on this forum, that’s how I judge you and how you judge me. Am I suppose to know better? Tell me How?
>>BTW I don't quote the scriptures, you did!
Is it wrong to quote the translation of the WORDS of my CREATOR?
I am stopping you quoting from every Tom, Dick or Harry if you wish.
If you don't repent from drinking hot boiling liquid will be poured down your esophagus with such searing pain that you will die a thousand death, only you don't and it will be repeated for as long as you are there. I hope that will scare the shit out of you
but if you are not scare, see you in hell!
You still have not answer my question on your name sake? Let me jog your memory.
He tried committing suicide by shooting himself at his heart, but missed, He was later executed. I don’t make up the story and it isn’t Hogwash either.(Oink! Oink!)
>>Pancut didera, (Tsk, Tsk, Shame on you for stooping so low. (I just explained your what your name means but you are making up dirty names). Can you not debate like a gentleman?
name calling again, Really, you must be short on points and intelligence.
>>These Arab wannabes are a poor copy cat and dumb too.
Hmmm!
Judgmental without a shred of evidence. You are ignorant as well as arrogant (bodoh sombong). History have shown that the Arabs and Persians as well as other Muslims have advanced science and knowledge by leaps and bounces. So who is the idiot?
Note; I do not agree to the September 11 bombing
>>So my message is very clear to you and your stone worshipping kind, bring Arab Facism into my backyard and kabooom!!!!
You are too pathetic to be worth killing, But you are definitely worth enlightening, for the time being.
>>written by temenggong, January 31, 2008 | 07:41:20
>>If usernames are indicative, then you boys better listen to me before you get into trouble.
Temenggong is an ancient Malay title of nobility, usually given to the chief of public security. Are you that ancient my dear Datuk.? Should try to apply for Musa Hassan post.Maybe you can do a better job!
>>So you think a name makes all the difference. I chose the name Ordinary Man because I consider myself just an ordinary man;
Spoken like a true gentleman.
>>Not a self-proclaimed grandiloquent and knowledgeable man.
Who?RPK?
>>If you think a name such as Panca Indera conveys a sense of superiority and power you better think again.
I always think a lot before I write, you should sty it sometimes!
Look-up the Kamus, since you have mistranslated what it means.
You are not judged by your name but by what you really are. Obviously you're one who judge the book by its cover.
You are what, say on this forum, that’s how I judge you and how you judge me. Am I suppose to know better? Tell me How?
>>BTW I don't quote the scriptures, you did!
Is it wrong to quote the translation of the WORDS of my CREATOR?
I am stopping you quoting from every Tom, Dick or Harry if you wish.
If you don't repent from drinking hot boiling liquid will be poured down your esophagus with such searing pain that you will die a thousand death, only you don't and it will be repeated for as long as you are there. I hope that will scare the shit out of you
but if you are not scare, see you in hell!
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written by Admiral Tojo, January 31, 2008 11:45:21
written by Admiral Tojo, January 31, 2008 11:45:21
CatV5, I will take your advise. I will stop calling Pancut Didera but I have to call a spade a spade. Stone Worship is just that, Stone Worship.
Temenggong, you the man.
Salaam
Temenggong, you the man.
Salaam
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written by OrdinaryMan, January 31, 2008 04:20:13
written by OrdinaryMan, January 31, 2008 04:20:13
Dear Panca Indera
So you think a name makes all the difference. I chose the name Ordinary Man because I consider myself just an ordinary man; not a self-proclaimed grandiloquent and knowledgeable man. If you think a name such as Panca Indera conveys a sense of superiority and power you better think again.
You are not judged by your name but by what you really are. Obviously you're one who judge the book by its cover.
Cheers
BTW I don't quote the scriptures, you did!
So you think a name makes all the difference. I chose the name Ordinary Man because I consider myself just an ordinary man; not a self-proclaimed grandiloquent and knowledgeable man. If you think a name such as Panca Indera conveys a sense of superiority and power you better think again.
You are not judged by your name but by what you really are. Obviously you're one who judge the book by its cover.
Cheers
BTW I don't quote the scriptures, you did!
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written by CatV5, January 31, 2008 01:27:48
written by CatV5, January 31, 2008 01:27:48
I hope i'm not going over the border. Just want to remind
49:11O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
Peace no hard feelings. I apologize if i'm labelling or mocking anybody. It's still not too late to repent.
49:11O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
Peace no hard feelings. I apologize if i'm labelling or mocking anybody.
It's still not too late to repent.
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written by temenggong, January 30, 2008 23:41:20
written by temenggong, January 30, 2008 23:41:20
If usernames are indicative, then you boys better listen to me before you get into trouble.
If you have to look at a book for humaness then you are already in trouble, already a drone!
If you have to look at a book for humaness then you are already in trouble, already a drone!
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written by Admiral Tojo, January 30, 2008 16:21:47
written by Admiral Tojo, January 30, 2008 16:21:47
Pancut didera,
You do not drink beer, you do not eat pork, you do not know how to enjoy GOD's (NOT your STONE God) blessings on earth. So who is the loser here????
A scene during the great interview;
Panca Indera : GOD, I followed my Mullah and have never eaten pork nor drink beer on Earth.
GOD: You numbskull, these are my blessings to you and why did you listen to your Mullahs? Are they GODs??? Go to hell now! Ha! Ha! (The last laugh)
By the way, the Japanese were the forerunners of suicide bombings, using planes etc. These Arab wannabes are a poor copy cat and dumb too. So my message is very clear to you and your stone worshipping kind, bring Arab Facism into my backyard and kabooom!!!!
Shalom
You do not drink beer, you do not eat pork, you do not know how to enjoy GOD's (NOT your STONE God) blessings on earth. So who is the loser here????
A scene during the great interview;
Panca Indera : GOD, I followed my Mullah and have never eaten pork nor drink beer on Earth.
GOD: You numbskull, these are my blessings to you and why did you listen to your Mullahs? Are they GODs??? Go to hell now! Ha! Ha! (The last laugh)
By the way, the Japanese were the forerunners of suicide bombings, using planes etc. These Arab wannabes are a poor copy cat and dumb too. So my message is very clear to you and your stone worshipping kind, bring Arab Facism into my backyard and kabooom!!!!
Shalom
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written by Panca Indera, January 30, 2008 14:53:47
written by Panca Indera, January 30, 2008 14:53:47
To Admiral Tojo and ordinary Man.
>>Are you trying to show off your scripture knowledge or what?
NO! Just letting you know what God Himself saidin the Quran, not me.
>>Do you know the devil can quote the scripture to serve his own evil needs?
Yes , you must be the Devil then!
>>So where do all these lead?
To the Hell fire, to the Hell fire for being arrogant just like the Devil.†Here is your beer, Admiral Tojoâ€Â, “ Your beer tastes excellent OrdinaryMan. Especially good with roast pork. Bismillah.â€Â
Remember, The one who laughs last laughs best. And I a not laughing yet.
>>“Yeah, they have to remove that Holier that thou attitude thingy especially those Mullahs..â€Â
Which one? Name them if you please, then we can debate.
In Islam(Surrender to the WILL of GOD) means: Thinking, Saying and Doing the Halal and avoiding the Haram,
Guys , just of a moment, do you ever wondered why your gave yourselves such nicknames as ordinary man and Admiral Tojo.
To me it speaks volumes about yourselves.
Ordinaryman, you will never achieve anything unless you change, because you’re ORDINARY!
>>When we do not subscribe to this nonsense,
How arrogant can you get! To label those who disagreed with your way of thinking as Nonsense
>>They labelled us freethinkers, atheist, etc etc
You are the ones who labeled yourselves, not us.
Admiral TOJO, You are a LOSER just like your namesake. Even his attempted suicide failed!
Do you think it was a coincidence that you pick those names or you really thought very hard. I personally think the Devil loves you so much for fighting in his cause, that he suggested to you the name just to make fun of you without you realizing it.Go read up about Admiral Tojo in Wikipedia, tell me how he ended.
Change your ways before its too late, bros.
May the Force be with you
>>Are you trying to show off your scripture knowledge or what?
NO! Just letting you know what God Himself saidin the Quran, not me.
>>Do you know the devil can quote the scripture to serve his own evil needs?
Yes , you must be the Devil then!
>>So where do all these lead?
To the Hell fire, to the Hell fire for being arrogant just like the Devil.†Here is your beer, Admiral Tojoâ€Â, “ Your beer tastes excellent OrdinaryMan. Especially good with roast pork. Bismillah.â€Â
Remember, The one who laughs last laughs best. And I a not laughing yet.
>>“Yeah, they have to remove that Holier that thou attitude thingy especially those Mullahs..â€Â
Which one? Name them if you please, then we can debate.
In Islam(Surrender to the WILL of GOD) means: Thinking, Saying and Doing the Halal and avoiding the Haram,
Guys , just of a moment, do you ever wondered why your gave yourselves such nicknames as ordinary man and Admiral Tojo.
To me it speaks volumes about yourselves.
Ordinaryman, you will never achieve anything unless you change, because you’re ORDINARY!
>>When we do not subscribe to this nonsense,
How arrogant can you get! To label those who disagreed with your way of thinking as Nonsense
>>They labelled us freethinkers, atheist, etc etc
You are the ones who labeled yourselves, not us.
Admiral TOJO, You are a LOSER just like your namesake. Even his attempted suicide failed!
Do you think it was a coincidence that you pick those names or you really thought very hard. I personally think the Devil loves you so much for fighting in his cause, that he suggested to you the name just to make fun of you without you realizing it.Go read up about Admiral Tojo in Wikipedia, tell me how he ended.
Change your ways before its too late, bros.
May the Force be with you
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written by Sword of Justice, January 30, 2008 04:09:36
written by Sword of Justice, January 30, 2008 04:09:36
The Selangor Mufti syas Botox is haram.. reason it does more good than harm. Is plastic surgery haram?
If it is....then if a muslim disfigures her face in a fire and needs reconstuctive surgery, is that haram? I think instead of issuing all these strange fatwa's they shold make a fatwa to stone government servants who are convicted of corruption.
If it is....then if a muslim disfigures her face in a fire and needs reconstuctive surgery, is that haram? I think instead of issuing all these strange fatwa's they shold make a fatwa to stone government servants who are convicted of corruption.
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written by CatV5, January 29, 2008 04:03:12
written by CatV5, January 29, 2008 04:03:12
Yeah, they have to remove that Holier that thou attitude thingy especially those Mullahs.... , it's those Mullahs ideas that makes Muslims suffer and had a bad name.
, it's those Mullahs ideas that makes Muslims suffer and had a bad name.
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written by Admiral Tojo, January 29, 2008 03:40:00
written by Admiral Tojo, January 29, 2008 03:40:00
OrdinaryMan,
you said,
dare say that it is man who created God in man's own image.
Spot on. They created a GOD of vengeance, wrath, anger and hate, very much human traits. When we do not subscribe to this nonsense, they labelled us freethinkers, atheist, etc etc. as if it bothers us a bit. It is they (the hypocrites) that is trying to shove this nonsense in our face. When I drink my beer with friends, bonding, discussing business, reaping the benefits of the brew, they will come with their holier than thou attitude and will try to make me feel guilty. Bollocks to this. In my World, there is no burden of sin nor burden of guilt. If I realise I have done something wrong, I just do not do it again. These Arab wannabes, they spend huge sums of money annually visiting their STONE temple in Arabland, comes home and continue living their lives of hypocrisy, bigotry and racism all over again. This applies to ALL religions, man made and never ordained by the Creator of the Universe.
Your beer tastes excellent OrdinaryMan. Especially good with roast pork. Bismillah.
Salaam/Peace
you said,
dare say that it is man who created God in man's own image.
Spot on. They created a GOD of vengeance, wrath, anger and hate, very much human traits. When we do not subscribe to this nonsense, they labelled us freethinkers, atheist, etc etc. as if it bothers us a bit. It is they (the hypocrites) that is trying to shove this nonsense in our face. When I drink my beer with friends, bonding, discussing business, reaping the benefits of the brew, they will come with their holier than thou attitude and will try to make me feel guilty. Bollocks to this. In my World, there is no burden of sin nor burden of guilt. If I realise I have done something wrong, I just do not do it again. These Arab wannabes, they spend huge sums of money annually visiting their STONE temple in Arabland, comes home and continue living their lives of hypocrisy, bigotry and racism all over again. This applies to ALL religions, man made and never ordained by the Creator of the Universe.
Your beer tastes excellent OrdinaryMan. Especially good with roast pork. Bismillah.
Salaam/Peace
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written by OrdinaryMan, January 28, 2008 15:32:14
written by OrdinaryMan, January 28, 2008 15:32:14
My dear Panca
Are you trying to show off your scripture knowledge or what? Do you know the devil can quote the scripture to serve his own evil needs? So where do all these lead?
Presuming God created the universe in accordance to science. And in a small iota of space in the universe the Milky Way galaxy was formed. In a corner of this galaxy is the sun. And a tiny sphere called Earth.
In this tiny sphere, through eons of time, was finally evolved a species called homo sapiens. Within a short period this species developed an ego as big as the universe. They dared to say that God created them in God’s own image.
I dare say that it is man who created God in man's own image. Not the other way round. The Bible, the Koran, and whatever books of religious beliefs; they are all creations of man. Creations to keep man apart. Creations to make man hate one another.
If there is truly a God who loves this world he would come down here and wipe off all religions from this surface. He will tell these ignorant homo sapiens that each has only one life to live and had better live it wisely. Just as if you have only a ringgit to live on you will use it wisely.
Here is your beer, Admiral Tojo.
Cheers!
Are you trying to show off your scripture knowledge or what? Do you know the devil can quote the scripture to serve his own evil needs? So where do all these lead?
Presuming God created the universe in accordance to science. And in a small iota of space in the universe the Milky Way galaxy was formed. In a corner of this galaxy is the sun. And a tiny sphere called Earth.
In this tiny sphere, through eons of time, was finally evolved a species called homo sapiens. Within a short period this species developed an ego as big as the universe. They dared to say that God created them in God’s own image.
I dare say that it is man who created God in man's own image. Not the other way round. The Bible, the Koran, and whatever books of religious beliefs; they are all creations of man. Creations to keep man apart. Creations to make man hate one another.
If there is truly a God who loves this world he would come down here and wipe off all religions from this surface. He will tell these ignorant homo sapiens that each has only one life to live and had better live it wisely. Just as if you have only a ringgit to live on you will use it wisely.
Here is your beer, Admiral Tojo.
Cheers!
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written by Avanza1, January 27, 2008 19:24:11
written by Avanza1, January 27, 2008 19:24:11
written by Panca Indera, January 27, 2008 | 09:48:34
Will respect your decision.
John8:28So Jesus added, When you have lifted up the Son of Man , you will realize that I am He and that I do nothing of Myself, but I say what My Father has taught Me.
29And He Who sent Me is ever with Me; My Father has not left Me alone, for I always do what pleases Him.
30As He said these things, many believed in Him.
31So Jesus said to those Jews who had believed in Him, If you abide in My word, you are truly My disciples.
32And you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.
God bless you.
Salam, Shalom
Will respect your decision.
John8:28So Jesus added, When you have lifted up the Son of Man , you will realize that I am He and that I do nothing of Myself, but I say what My Father has taught Me.
29And He Who sent Me is ever with Me; My Father has not left Me alone, for I always do what pleases Him.
30As He said these things, many believed in Him.
31So Jesus said to those Jews who had believed in Him, If you abide in My word, you are truly My disciples.
32And you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.
God bless you.
Salam, Shalom
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written by Panca Indera, January 27, 2008 01:48:34
written by Panca Indera, January 27, 2008 01:48:34
Dear Avanza1
“So Avanza1 you with your beliefs and I with mine, and “Never shall the twine meet.â€Â
Good bye!â€Â
Apparently you don’t comprehend the above statement. Well, Good bye AGAIN and I leave you with this final message from the Quran.
• [2.7] Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.
• [2.10] There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they lied.
• [2.74] Then your hearts hardened after that, so that they were like rocks, rather worse in hardness; and surely there are some rocks from which streams burst forth, and surely there are some of them which split asunder so water issues out of them, and surely there are some of them which fall down for fear of Allah, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.
• [2.88] And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe.
[2.15] Allah shall pay them back their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.
[7.186] Whomsoever Allah causes to err, there is no guide for him; and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.
[16.61] And if Allah had destroyed men for their iniquity, He would not leave on the earth a single creature, but He respites them till an appointed time; so when their doom will come they shall not be able to delay (it) an hour nor can they bring (it) on (before its time).
[33.48] And be not compliant to the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and leave unregarded their annoying talk, and rely on Allah; and Allah is sufficient as a Protector.
Bon Voyage
“So Avanza1 you with your beliefs and I with mine, and “Never shall the twine meet.â€Â
Good bye!â€Â
Apparently you don’t comprehend the above statement. Well, Good bye AGAIN and I leave you with this final message from the Quran.
• [2.7] Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.
• [2.10] There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they lied.
• [2.74] Then your hearts hardened after that, so that they were like rocks, rather worse in hardness; and surely there are some rocks from which streams burst forth, and surely there are some of them which split asunder so water issues out of them, and surely there are some of them which fall down for fear of Allah, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.
• [2.88] And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe.
[2.15] Allah shall pay them back their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.
[7.186] Whomsoever Allah causes to err, there is no guide for him; and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.
[16.61] And if Allah had destroyed men for their iniquity, He would not leave on the earth a single creature, but He respites them till an appointed time; so when their doom will come they shall not be able to delay (it) an hour nor can they bring (it) on (before its time).
[33.48] And be not compliant to the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and leave unregarded their annoying talk, and rely on Allah; and Allah is sufficient as a Protector.
Bon Voyage
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written by Avanza1, January 26, 2008 13:41:30
written by Avanza1, January 26, 2008 13:41:30
written by Panca Indera, January 21, 2008 | 01:00:19
Good. You found some text having similar facts. However you left out many of Isa Al-Masih's teaching on His relationship with Allah. Likewise you did not quote the verses regarding the Paraclet(Holy Spirit). Hope you can read the bible with and open mind and accept the truth. Please do not pick and choose verse just to suit/support your own beliefs. Read the whole passage.
Good. You found some text having similar facts. However you left out many of Isa Al-Masih's teaching on His relationship with Allah. Likewise you did not quote the verses regarding the Paraclet(Holy Spirit). Hope you can read the bible with and open mind and accept the truth. Please do not pick and choose verse just to suit/support your own beliefs. Read the whole passage.
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written by Panca Indera, January 26, 2008 13:37:14
written by Panca Indera, January 26, 2008 13:37:14
Dear Admiral Tojo
Do be careful of what you uttered, publicly. In your attempt to justify your actions or beliefs you may overstepped the boundary.
[7.30] A part has He guided aright and (as for another) part, error is justly their due, surely they took the Shaitans for guardians beside Allah, and they think that they are followers of the right.
As for the stone you mentioned (is it Kaabah or Hajarat Aswad?)
a. The very first construction of the Ka`bah was done by Prophet Adam (raa). Allah says in the Quran that this was the first house that was built for humanity to worship Allah.
b. Muslims pay their respects to the Black Stone in a spirit of trust in Muhammad, not with any belief in the Black Stone itself.
As for your question on where in 2:219 does it say beer is haram??
Try reading the (5:90) and connect or interphase with (2:219) They will show that Allah associated them with the abhorrent, disgusting,loathsome hated work of the Devil himself. So if you choose to be associated with that group, by all means. But Allah Himself has given you the Warning to avoid them.
Good Luck!
Below is an article about drinking including cheap beer.
Middle-aged binge drinkers dying in record numbers
By Jeremy Laurance, Health Editor (The independent UK)
Saturday, 26 January 2008
They ask you about intoxicants and gambling: say, 'In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit.'" 2:219
"O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed." 5:90
A record number of people are drinking themselves to death, according to latest figures showing Britain is on a dangerous alcohol binge.
Cheap beer, wine and spirits and a binge-drinking culture are taking an increasing toll as both sexes succumb to the harmful effects of alcohol.
A report from the Office for National Statistics published yesterday shows that 8,758 people died from excessive alcohol intake in 2006, twice the number in 1991. Death rates rose in all age groups but the biggest increase for both sexes was among people aged 35 to 54, a legacy of heavy drinking in their 20s and early 30s. Death rates for women in this age group doubled from 7.2 to 14.8 per 100,000 , a larger increase than for women in any other age group.
Professor Ian Gilmore, president of the Royal College of Physicians, said the increase in women's drinking was causing serious concern.
"The new figures are deeply worrying as women seem to be more susceptible to the damaging physical effects of alcohol. This may be due to their smaller size and different fat distribution, but there are almost certainly other factors at play, possibly genetic and biochemical differences. My colleagues and I are seeing more women with serious liver damage than ever before in our clinics. Liver disease is often symptomless until it becomes very serious and so people often have no warning that they are destroying their liver until it is too late."
Despite the rise in female drinking, the death rate among men is twice that for women and the gap between the sexes is widening. Among men aged 35 to 54, the death rate has more than doubled since 1991 from 13.4 to 31.1 per 100,000. The official figures do not include road accidents or other injuries in which alcohol may have played a part, so the true total of alcohol-linked deaths is higher.
Ministers are under pressure to withdraw 24-hour licences for pubs and clubs, introduced to help curb binge drinking by ending the 11pm closing time rush, despite the lack of evidence that the change has increased drinking. But ministers have resisted demands for price rises, which are known to curb consumption. An alliance of medical organisations, including the Royal College of Physicians, has called for an increase in the tax on alcohol and curbs on supermarkets offering big discounts. The NHS Information Centre reported last year that alcohol was 65 per cent more affordable than in 1980 and accounted for only 5.2 per cent of household spending compared with 7.5 per cent in 1980.
More than one in five men and almost one in 10 women binge-drink every week, consuming in a single session more than eight units of alcohol for men or six units for women.
salam
Do be careful of what you uttered, publicly. In your attempt to justify your actions or beliefs you may overstepped the boundary.
[7.30] A part has He guided aright and (as for another) part, error is justly their due, surely they took the Shaitans for guardians beside Allah, and they think that they are followers of the right.
As for the stone you mentioned (is it Kaabah or Hajarat Aswad?)
a. The very first construction of the Ka`bah was done by Prophet Adam (raa). Allah says in the Quran that this was the first house that was built for humanity to worship Allah.
b. Muslims pay their respects to the Black Stone in a spirit of trust in Muhammad, not with any belief in the Black Stone itself.
As for your question on where in 2:219 does it say beer is haram??
Try reading the (5:90) and connect or interphase with (2:219) They will show that Allah associated them with the abhorrent, disgusting,loathsome hated work of the Devil himself. So if you choose to be associated with that group, by all means. But Allah Himself has given you the Warning to avoid them.
Good Luck!
Below is an article about drinking including cheap beer.
Middle-aged binge drinkers dying in record numbers
By Jeremy Laurance, Health Editor (The independent UK)
Saturday, 26 January 2008
They ask you about intoxicants and gambling: say, 'In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit.'" 2:219
"O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed." 5:90
A record number of people are drinking themselves to death, according to latest figures showing Britain is on a dangerous alcohol binge.
Cheap beer, wine and spirits and a binge-drinking culture are taking an increasing toll as both sexes succumb to the harmful effects of alcohol.
A report from the Office for National Statistics published yesterday shows that 8,758 people died from excessive alcohol intake in 2006, twice the number in 1991. Death rates rose in all age groups but the biggest increase for both sexes was among people aged 35 to 54, a legacy of heavy drinking in their 20s and early 30s. Death rates for women in this age group doubled from 7.2 to 14.8 per 100,000 , a larger increase than for women in any other age group.
Professor Ian Gilmore, president of the Royal College of Physicians, said the increase in women's drinking was causing serious concern.
"The new figures are deeply worrying as women seem to be more susceptible to the damaging physical effects of alcohol. This may be due to their smaller size and different fat distribution, but there are almost certainly other factors at play, possibly genetic and biochemical differences. My colleagues and I are seeing more women with serious liver damage than ever before in our clinics. Liver disease is often symptomless until it becomes very serious and so people often have no warning that they are destroying their liver until it is too late."
Despite the rise in female drinking, the death rate among men is twice that for women and the gap between the sexes is widening. Among men aged 35 to 54, the death rate has more than doubled since 1991 from 13.4 to 31.1 per 100,000. The official figures do not include road accidents or other injuries in which alcohol may have played a part, so the true total of alcohol-linked deaths is higher.
Ministers are under pressure to withdraw 24-hour licences for pubs and clubs, introduced to help curb binge drinking by ending the 11pm closing time rush, despite the lack of evidence that the change has increased drinking. But ministers have resisted demands for price rises, which are known to curb consumption. An alliance of medical organisations, including the Royal College of Physicians, has called for an increase in the tax on alcohol and curbs on supermarkets offering big discounts. The NHS Information Centre reported last year that alcohol was 65 per cent more affordable than in 1980 and accounted for only 5.2 per cent of household spending compared with 7.5 per cent in 1980.
More than one in five men and almost one in 10 women binge-drink every week, consuming in a single session more than eight units of alcohol for men or six units for women.
salam
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 26, 2008 07:55:18
written by Rohani Hitam, January 26, 2008 07:55:18
Beer is an intoxicant, causes wife and children abuse, rape, road accidents and addiction. How about good hot tea?
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written by Admiral Tojo, January 26, 2008 05:53:56
written by Admiral Tojo, January 26, 2008 05:53:56
Panca Indera,
where in 2:219 does it say beer is haram?? There are benefits too in intoxicants going by your popular translation. So jangan tambah tambah bro. What is mentioned is altars of idols!!!! That Stone Structure in Arabland that you associate alongside GOD, what is that? Direction? Anything, including focal points and directions are forbidden from being associated alongside GOD. No wonder they never succeed, those who idolise and worship GOD rather than SERVE. Ponder!!!
Now where is my beer, Bismillah!
Salaam
where in 2:219 does it say beer is haram?? There are benefits too in intoxicants going by your popular translation. So jangan tambah tambah bro. What is mentioned is altars of idols!!!! That Stone Structure in Arabland that you associate alongside GOD, what is that? Direction? Anything, including focal points and directions are forbidden from being associated alongside GOD. No wonder they never succeed, those who idolise and worship GOD rather than SERVE. Ponder!!!
Now where is my beer, Bismillah!
Salaam
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written by Panca Indera, January 26, 2008 04:50:12
written by Panca Indera, January 26, 2008 04:50:12
Dear Admiral Tojo
Quote,Now where is my beer, Bismillah?
They ask you about intoxicants and gambling: say, 'In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit.'" 2:219
"O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed." 5:90
Its your ball game dud! Allah mentioned that you might achieve success if you avoid them.
Quote,Now where is my beer, Bismillah?
They ask you about intoxicants and gambling: say, 'In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit.'" 2:219
"O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed." 5:90
Its your ball game dud! Allah mentioned that you might achieve success if you avoid them.
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written by tuanlokong, January 24, 2008 12:11:13
written by tuanlokong, January 24, 2008 12:11:13
I use insyaallah every day here, no choice when talking to an Arab. I salam them they replied me very politetly, in fact teach me how to pronounce it better. Not sure how? 
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written by CatV5, January 24, 2008 02:19:55
written by CatV5, January 24, 2008 02:19:55
Temenggong,
Thanks to RH, God proves his point on 17:45, 11:34. At least it increased my faith. All praise to Him.
Thanks to RH, God proves his point on 17:45, 11:34. At least it increased my faith
. All praise to Him.
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 22, 2008 15:43:01
written by Rohani Hitam, January 22, 2008 15:43:01
Temenggong,
If it's biology, physics, astronomy or geomophology, you cannot say things that you think your big brain can tell. It is either you know or you don't. If it is Islam or Christianity, any body can chip in. Whether it is senseless, stupid or intelligent, nobody is going to hold you by the neck. You can say anything you like including having a fantastic brain that logic is only only reserve for you.
No matter what I am not going to claim to have the brain that can provide an explanation to what is written in the Quran. I wouldn't dare because I respect other people's view. And if you think your intelligence will suffice, be it. I do not subscribe to such arrogance. Although I was once a practising anthropologist and have adequate scientific background, I cannot make the same claim that you have cause I know each individual knowledge limitation.
If it's biology, physics, astronomy or geomophology, you cannot say things that you think your big brain can tell. It is either you know or you don't. If it is Islam or Christianity, any body can chip in. Whether it is senseless, stupid or intelligent, nobody is going to hold you by the neck. You can say anything you like including having a fantastic brain that logic is only only reserve for you.
No matter what I am not going to claim to have the brain that can provide an explanation to what is written in the Quran. I wouldn't dare because I respect other people's view. And if you think your intelligence will suffice, be it. I do not subscribe to such arrogance. Although I was once a practising anthropologist and have adequate scientific background, I cannot make the same claim that you have cause I know each individual knowledge limitation.
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written by CatV5, January 22, 2008 07:36:53
written by CatV5, January 22, 2008 07:36:53
I agree with you brother, Religion/sects is one of the main cause of war and divides among humans. If ones belief is kept personal i don't think this kind of thing would happen. But what can we do. Human likes to group, to argue, to uphold what he/she belief is right. It's the human heart that is ugly, the ego IMHO. The community of the religion is what it reflects. False teaching might be the cause. But how do we know which is false which is true? One must investigate him/herself and must be just to judge what is right and wrong. But still, the result of the judgment might blooms another sect or religion. Hmmmm penin.....
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written by OrdinaryMan, January 22, 2008 06:34:40
written by OrdinaryMan, January 22, 2008 06:34:40
Again I hope someone will read an article called " HOLY HORROR--ATROCITIES IN THE NAME OF GOD" in
http://www.skeptically.org/enlightenment/id7.html
I just wish to quote the ending: "It's fashionable among thinking people to say that religion isn't the real cause of today's strife in Lebanon, Sri Lanka, Northern Ireland, India and Iran -- that sects merely provide labels for combatants. Not so. Religion keeps the groups in hostile camps. Without it, divisions would blur with passing generations; children would adapt to new times, mingle, intermarry, forget ancient wounds. But religion keeps them alien to one another.
Anything that divides people breeds inhumanity. Religion serves that ugly purpose."
Cheers.
http://www.skeptically.org/enlightenment/id7.html
I just wish to quote the ending: "It's fashionable among thinking people to say that religion isn't the real cause of today's strife in Lebanon, Sri Lanka, Northern Ireland, India and Iran -- that sects merely provide labels for combatants. Not so. Religion keeps the groups in hostile camps. Without it, divisions would blur with passing generations; children would adapt to new times, mingle, intermarry, forget ancient wounds. But religion keeps them alien to one another.
Anything that divides people breeds inhumanity. Religion serves that ugly purpose."
Cheers.
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written by Admiral Tojo, January 21, 2008 08:35:51
written by Admiral Tojo, January 21, 2008 08:35:51
Salaam CatV5
You said,
>>>>Yup, you have to utilise your brain to the max. Think outside of the box. Remember, mind is one of the countless blessings from God. Use it wisely. If only you knew
Try thinking without a Box.
We can see the products of this. All that is deemed human progress, from the tallest buildings to the fastest mode of transport, are products of thinking without a box. Now some scientists at Iowa State University have managed to make a dead heart cell beat again. Human evolution is not exactly what Darwin made out to be. Our evolution is our progress, throughout this journey. Before 'Adamah - the human who could reflect, analyse and implore', we were basically acting out of instinct, pre programmed. (Incidentally NOT the Adam and Eve spin that we hear). Through the evolution of human's thinking process, the act of creating came to being, creating for good and for destruction. The humans were always in control of their destiny. Till now, very few have progressed, most are still pagans, worshipping the Sun, Prophets, Directions, Crosses and what have you. Throughout human history, Religions were created to weakened the peoples contrary to what was intended by the Creator.
The sooner we remove these boxes, put there by Mullahs, Priests, Rabbiis, Monks and what have you, the better for the human race.
My 2 sens worth....
Salaam and cheers
You said,
>>>>Yup, you have to utilise your brain to the max. Think outside of the box. Remember, mind is one of the countless blessings from God. Use it wisely. If only you knew
Try thinking without a Box.
We can see the products of this. All that is deemed human progress, from the tallest buildings to the fastest mode of transport, are products of thinking without a box. Now some scientists at Iowa State University have managed to make a dead heart cell beat again. Human evolution is not exactly what Darwin made out to be. Our evolution is our progress, throughout this journey. Before 'Adamah - the human who could reflect, analyse and implore', we were basically acting out of instinct, pre programmed. (Incidentally NOT the Adam and Eve spin that we hear). Through the evolution of human's thinking process, the act of creating came to being, creating for good and for destruction. The humans were always in control of their destiny. Till now, very few have progressed, most are still pagans, worshipping the Sun, Prophets, Directions, Crosses and what have you. Throughout human history, Religions were created to weakened the peoples contrary to what was intended by the Creator.
The sooner we remove these boxes, put there by Mullahs, Priests, Rabbiis, Monks and what have you, the better for the human race.
My 2 sens worth....
Salaam and cheers
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written by CatV5, January 21, 2008 07:15:52
written by CatV5, January 21, 2008 07:15:52
Quote from admiral Tojo
In fact Islam has become so very simple for me, these Mullahs ask of me to do something and I do the complete opposite, I am correct. ''I have made this Quran easy to learn, Is there anyone who wishes to learn?' keeps cropping up in the reading. GOD is fair to ALL, the bus drivers, the traders, the professionals, everybody. No one has the intellectual rights to the Quran on anyone's behalf. All you need is to utilise your brain to the max. It is a case of not thinking outside the box but throwing the box into the trash. No do you understand?
Yup, you have to utilise your brain to the max. Think outside of the box. Remember, mind is one of the countless blessings from God. Use it wisely. If only you knew.
I had analyzed as humanly as possible, it still says apes and swines in my head. Something is shackling me to disbelief your meaning. Nevermind, it's your belief. Close debate. I still have other things to explore.
and to prove politicians are becoming monkeys c***k here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArddcjZ9MPk
In fact Islam has become so very simple for me, these Mullahs ask of me to do something and I do the complete opposite, I am correct. ''I have made this Quran easy to learn, Is there anyone who wishes to learn?' keeps cropping up in the reading. GOD is fair to ALL, the bus drivers, the traders, the professionals, everybody. No one has the intellectual rights to the Quran on anyone's behalf. All you need is to utilise your brain to the max. It is a case of not thinking outside the box but throwing the box into the trash. No do you understand?
Yup, you have to utilise your brain to the max. Think outside of the box. Remember, mind is one of the countless blessings from God. Use it wisely. If only you knew.
I had analyzed as humanly as possible, it still says apes and swines in my head. Something is shackling me to disbelief your meaning. Nevermind, it's your belief. Close debate. I still have other things to explore.
and to prove politicians are becoming monkeys c***k here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArddcjZ9MPk
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written by Admiral Tojo, January 21, 2008 05:46:09
written by Admiral Tojo, January 21, 2008 05:46:09
Salaam CatV5,
5:60 does not tells us that these Hypocrites will turn literally into Apes and Swines. Otherwise the whole of our Malaysian Parliament will be full of Apes and Pigs, correct? Please analyse the words in the verse, in the original langguage, that they (The popular translators) say means Apes and Swines.
Now ponder further, who are the ones in this World today that behaves like Apes and are Rotten (khinz) to the core??? There are many examples, those who cause mischief in this World, committ murder, causes mayhem, those bigots, racists, those who corrupts the Earth.
Peace to you Bro.
Salaam
5:60 does not tells us that these Hypocrites will turn literally into Apes and Swines. Otherwise the whole of our Malaysian Parliament will be full of Apes and Pigs, correct? Please analyse the words in the verse, in the original langguage, that they (The popular translators) say means Apes and Swines.
Now ponder further, who are the ones in this World today that behaves like Apes and are Rotten (khinz) to the core??? There are many examples, those who cause mischief in this World, committ murder, causes mayhem, those bigots, racists, those who corrupts the Earth.
Peace to you Bro.
Salaam
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written by Admiral Tojo, January 21, 2008 05:34:36
written by Admiral Tojo, January 21, 2008 05:34:36
Dear Rohani Hitam,
you said,
>>>You seems to be very confident of yourself. Logic rules your thinking. What make you so sure you know everything? What make you think that you are infallible?
I am very confident of what I found out in Quran, through my own reading, as to what I need as guidelines for a RIGHTEOUS living (NOT RELIGIOUS living). I will never allow anyone to govern this on me, as I have been given the necessary tools for this, namely my brain. No one is infallible, but we are told to use our brains to implore, reflect and analyse, on any issue. If I have done something wrong, I just do not do it again. In this way, I am at peace (MUSLIM), at peace with myself, the people around me and the world.
You said,
>>>You are not even an expert in Islam. You have no relevent qualification from a recognised Islamic University (not Malaysia of course). And you dare say that your logical thinking is sufficient to guide your action or inaction.
What qualification are you talking about? Look at Al-Azhar University, they spend 6 years studying folklores and Myths, and the last 6 months Quran recital (memorising and parroting without understanding). After several years of talking and discussing with these Mullahs, Uztazzes etc, I found out that they know nothing at all about what Quran expounds. They are well versed in Arab Folklores written by Persians, that you can never verify.
In fact Islam has become so very simple for me, these Mullahs ask of me to do something and I do the complete opposite, I am correct. ''I have made this Quran easy to learn, Is there anyone who wishes to learn?' keeps cropping up in the reading. GOD is fair to ALL, the bus drivers, the traders, the professionals, everybody. No one has the intellectual rights to the Quran on anyone's behalf. All you need is to utilise your brain to the max. It is a case of not thinking outside the box but throwing the box into the trash. No do you understand?
Now where is my beer, Bismillah?
Salaam and cheers!
you said,
>>>You seems to be very confident of yourself. Logic rules your thinking. What make you so sure you know everything? What make you think that you are infallible?
I am very confident of what I found out in Quran, through my own reading, as to what I need as guidelines for a RIGHTEOUS living (NOT RELIGIOUS living). I will never allow anyone to govern this on me, as I have been given the necessary tools for this, namely my brain. No one is infallible, but we are told to use our brains to implore, reflect and analyse, on any issue. If I have done something wrong, I just do not do it again. In this way, I am at peace (MUSLIM), at peace with myself, the people around me and the world.
You said,
>>>You are not even an expert in Islam. You have no relevent qualification from a recognised Islamic University (not Malaysia of course). And you dare say that your logical thinking is sufficient to guide your action or inaction.
What qualification are you talking about? Look at Al-Azhar University, they spend 6 years studying folklores and Myths, and the last 6 months Quran recital (memorising and parroting without understanding). After several years of talking and discussing with these Mullahs, Uztazzes etc, I found out that they know nothing at all about what Quran expounds. They are well versed in Arab Folklores written by Persians, that you can never verify.
In fact Islam has become so very simple for me, these Mullahs ask of me to do something and I do the complete opposite, I am correct. ''I have made this Quran easy to learn, Is there anyone who wishes to learn?' keeps cropping up in the reading. GOD is fair to ALL, the bus drivers, the traders, the professionals, everybody. No one has the intellectual rights to the Quran on anyone's behalf. All you need is to utilise your brain to the max. It is a case of not thinking outside the box but throwing the box into the trash. No do you understand?
Now where is my beer, Bismillah?
Salaam and cheers!
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written by temenggong, January 21, 2008 02:11:13
written by temenggong, January 21, 2008 02:11:13
Rohani,
You want to listen to peoples' (imans, mufits) hearsay. You don't want to read the quran yourself and make up your mind as commanded. You don't want to know the meaning of 'haram' in the dictionary. When I say put nothing alongside the quran you want to put a mufti alongside to interptret it for you. Okay, go ahead! I am here only to remind, not watch over you.
You want to listen to peoples' (imans, mufits) hearsay. You don't want to read the quran yourself and make up your mind as commanded. You don't want to know the meaning of 'haram' in the dictionary. When I say put nothing alongside the quran you want to put a mufti alongside to interptret it for you. Okay, go ahead! I am here only to remind, not watch over you.
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written by CatV5, January 21, 2008 01:17:33
written by CatV5, January 21, 2008 01:17:33
Dear Bro Admiral,
Can you prove me wrong on this verse?
[5:60] Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped Evil, these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even Path!"
If you say khinzir means rotten, then that verse could mean apes and rotten?
khanaziraa is plural for khinzir, root word is kha-nun-zal-raa,
As far as my lowly mind tells me, it means swine/pig.
And to Rohani Hitam, Please wake up. If you belief in the judgement day, those Imams won't help you. You are alone there. So it's your responsibility to seek the truth yourself. Unless you belief otherwise, it's your call.
Peace
Can you prove me wrong on this verse?
[5:60] Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped Evil, these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even Path!"
If you say khinzir means rotten, then that verse could mean apes and rotten?
khanaziraa is plural for khinzir, root word is kha-nun-zal-raa,
As far as my lowly mind tells me, it means swine/pig.
And to Rohani Hitam, Please wake up. If you belief in the judgement day, those Imams won't help you. You are alone there. So it's your responsibility to seek the truth yourself. Unless you belief otherwise, it's your call.
Peace
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 20, 2008 19:15:17
written by Rohani Hitam, January 20, 2008 19:15:17
Admiral,
Your beer is not on me. The bartender has already given you one for one. Happy hour!
Your beer is not on me. The bartender has already given you one for one. Happy hour!
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 20, 2008 19:11:43
written by Rohani Hitam, January 20, 2008 19:11:43
Admiral,
You seems to be very confident of yourself. Logic rules your thinking. What make you so sure you know everything? What make you think that you are infallible?
When a judge wants to make a ruling or a verdict he will decide for sufficient adjournment where he has to study all previous cases, any precedence, what other commonwealth countries practices and the relevent code of law. He can be challenged both by the councilors and the prosecutors. He can be found to have erred by the Court of Appeal.
You are not even an expert in Islam. You have no relevent qualification from a recognised Islamic University (not Malaysia of course). And you dare say that your logical thinking is sufficient to guide your action or inaction. One man's meat is any man's poison. Don't be too confident of yourself. And we are not stupid enough to listen to a bogus Imam or a politically influenced one. That is why Islam allow us to bring down a corrupted Imam. And we do have many Imams because each country has got their own. And every Imam can release as much fatwas as he pleases but we need not have to follow them if we choose not to. Islam practises democracy but many has failed to recognise it.
You seems to be very confident of yourself. Logic rules your thinking. What make you so sure you know everything? What make you think that you are infallible?
When a judge wants to make a ruling or a verdict he will decide for sufficient adjournment where he has to study all previous cases, any precedence, what other commonwealth countries practices and the relevent code of law. He can be challenged both by the councilors and the prosecutors. He can be found to have erred by the Court of Appeal.
You are not even an expert in Islam. You have no relevent qualification from a recognised Islamic University (not Malaysia of course). And you dare say that your logical thinking is sufficient to guide your action or inaction. One man's meat is any man's poison. Don't be too confident of yourself. And we are not stupid enough to listen to a bogus Imam or a politically influenced one. That is why Islam allow us to bring down a corrupted Imam. And we do have many Imams because each country has got their own. And every Imam can release as much fatwas as he pleases but we need not have to follow them if we choose not to. Islam practises democracy but many has failed to recognise it.
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written by Admiral Tojo, January 20, 2008 18:15:13
written by Admiral Tojo, January 20, 2008 18:15:13
Dear Rohani Hitam,
You display a cronic case of what I call 'Cop Outism'. This is the case of the followers of the Pagan Arab Religion and for that matter ALL religions. Mullahs, Priests, Rabbis, Monks to blame in case what you are doing is ultimately wrong and defies logic.
You say that you will listen to your Imam, Mufti man or Fatwa spinners before you will do anything. Try this for size, Quran says for us NOT to follow anyone who ask you for any wage. All these jokers above are on a salary scheme and we are categorically advised (in Quran) NOT to follow them. So how????
Too much STONE worship if you ask me. The brain tends to turn to stone too.
Now where is my beer?
Salaam and cheers!
You display a cronic case of what I call 'Cop Outism'. This is the case of the followers of the Pagan Arab Religion and for that matter ALL religions. Mullahs, Priests, Rabbis, Monks to blame in case what you are doing is ultimately wrong and defies logic.
You say that you will listen to your Imam, Mufti man or Fatwa spinners before you will do anything. Try this for size, Quran says for us NOT to follow anyone who ask you for any wage. All these jokers above are on a salary scheme and we are categorically advised (in Quran) NOT to follow them. So how????
Too much STONE worship if you ask me. The brain tends to turn to stone too.
Now where is my beer?
Salaam and cheers!
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written by Panca Indera, January 20, 2008 17:00:19
written by Panca Indera, January 20, 2008 17:00:19
Dear Avanza1
I have decided not to debate any futher, based on my assessment of your responds and questions put(you win!). However as a final gesture to you and others still interested I will let the Bible and Quran speaks for themselves.
The Bible version on the Miracle birth of Jesus PBUH according to Gospel of Mathew 1 (KJV)
[18] Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
[19] Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privacy.
[20] But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
[21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
[22] Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
[23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
[24] Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
[25] And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS
The birth of Jesus according to Quran.
[3.45] When the angels said: O Mary surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
[3.46] And he shall speak to the people when in the cradle and when of old age, and (he shall be) one of the good ones.
[3.47] She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.
[3.48] And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Torah and the Injeel (New Testament).
[3.49] And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel: (Jesus spoke)â€ÂThat I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.
Trinity according to Paul
Eph.1
[1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
[2] Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
[4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[6] To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
[7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
According to the Quran
[3.59] Surely the likeness of Jesus is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.
4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Mary and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
So Avanza1 you with your beliefs and I with mine, and “Never shall the twine meet.â€Â
Good bye!
I have decided not to debate any futher, based on my assessment of your responds and questions put(you win!). However as a final gesture to you and others still interested I will let the Bible and Quran speaks for themselves.
The Bible version on the Miracle birth of Jesus PBUH according to Gospel of Mathew 1 (KJV)
[18] Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
[19] Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privacy.
[20] But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
[21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
[22] Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
[23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
[24] Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
[25] And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS
The birth of Jesus according to Quran.
[3.45] When the angels said: O Mary surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
[3.46] And he shall speak to the people when in the cradle and when of old age, and (he shall be) one of the good ones.
[3.47] She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.
[3.48] And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Torah and the Injeel (New Testament).
[3.49] And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel: (Jesus spoke)â€ÂThat I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.
Trinity according to Paul
Eph.1
[1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
[2] Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
[4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[6] To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
[7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
According to the Quran
[3.59] Surely the likeness of Jesus is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.
4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Mary and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
So Avanza1 you with your beliefs and I with mine, and “Never shall the twine meet.â€Â
Good bye!
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written by C360, January 20, 2008 15:04:54
written by C360, January 20, 2008 15:04:54
Whenever you want to say something about your religious understanding (whether Islam, Christian .. others) qualify it with why you say it, refer to references or recognised authority .. LASTLY AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, qualify it with what YOU BELIEVE !
IF after all the references and recognised authority teachings, YOU HAVE DOUBTS .. SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH WHAT YOU KNOW AND WHAT YOU BELIEVE .. that is why ALLAH gave us 3 channels to verify what we learn is "TRUE IN SPIRIT" .. LEARNED knowledge, EXPERIENTIAL knowledge and INSPIRATIONAL knowledge ..
Personally I dont care whether PORK is haram or not (according to Islam "practise" by various Muslim populations in different parts of the world) .. I already know there is no Islamic tenet saying "Pork is haram" .. from the Quran, from Muslims who understand Islam, from historical references on disease control ..
I have a problem when a Malay Muslim says "Why do Chinese eat pork ?" .. WITH VENOM ! Question : Was pork advised as haram, therefore those that consume pork as also haram ? Mix it up with Malaysian history that Kaum Pendatang is "threatening Malay Rights" .. not forgetting that Malays = Islam (net effect of our constitution) .. and in all this .. the individual is a Muslim ? .. this notwithstanding that the highest consumer of pork in the world is an european nation ie lack of knowledge ..
Better to qualify what you say as either WHAT YOU BELIEVE (HEART, SOUL & MIND) or MY REFERENCES INDICATE THIS, BUT I DON'T FEEL RIGHT ON THE ISSUE .. ALLAH gave us "instinct" .. ALLAH also gave us the duty to make sure what we are taught is "RIGHT, BY HIS SPIRIT" .. so dont blame it on the teacher or authority ..
"I dont know, teacher dont teach or teach wrongly .. THEREFORE, i did not and do not learn" .. if ALLAH gave you this learning, you BLASPHEME ALLAH !! ..
IF after all the references and recognised authority teachings, YOU HAVE DOUBTS .. SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH WHAT YOU KNOW AND WHAT YOU BELIEVE .. that is why ALLAH gave us 3 channels to verify what we learn is "TRUE IN SPIRIT" .. LEARNED knowledge, EXPERIENTIAL knowledge and INSPIRATIONAL knowledge ..
Personally I dont care whether PORK is haram or not (according to Islam "practise" by various Muslim populations in different parts of the world) .. I already know there is no Islamic tenet saying "Pork is haram" .. from the Quran, from Muslims who understand Islam, from historical references on disease control ..
I have a problem when a Malay Muslim says "Why do Chinese eat pork ?" .. WITH VENOM ! Question : Was pork advised as haram, therefore those that consume pork as also haram ? Mix it up with Malaysian history that Kaum Pendatang is "threatening Malay Rights" .. not forgetting that Malays = Islam (net effect of our constitution) .. and in all this .. the individual is a Muslim ? .. this notwithstanding that the highest consumer of pork in the world is an european nation ie lack of knowledge ..
Better to qualify what you say as either WHAT YOU BELIEVE (HEART, SOUL & MIND) or MY REFERENCES INDICATE THIS, BUT I DON'T FEEL RIGHT ON THE ISSUE .. ALLAH gave us "instinct" .. ALLAH also gave us the duty to make sure what we are taught is "RIGHT, BY HIS SPIRIT" .. so dont blame it on the teacher or authority ..
"I dont know, teacher dont teach or teach wrongly .. THEREFORE, i did not and do not learn" .. if ALLAH gave you this learning, you BLASPHEME ALLAH !! ..
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 20, 2008 13:20:58
written by Rohani Hitam, January 20, 2008 13:20:58
Avanza,
You must ask why the teaching of the bible is so diffrent from Judaism. In the bible we have the concept of trinity, we have the cross, Christmas celebration on the birth date of the sun God and we have this rise after death (resurrection).
Christianity accepted the Old Testaments, the foundation of the teaching of Judaism, as part of the bible and yet we see not much similarity in them. Judaism stresses on the unity of God and completely Jewish in culture and spirit. Christianity talks about the blessed trinity and spread the message to the Gentiles, original sin (all of us are sinners) and Jesus being the saviour. Anthropologists noted there are strong Greek and Roman influence in the bible as against its predecessor, Judaism. And the writers - Luke, Mark and John had never met Jesus. The bible was written 70 - 100 years after the death of Jesus. Could there be anything not right? If the writers are people inspired by God why then there are noticeable discrepancies in the 4 Gospels? Can you trust the Council that decided on the gospels that are accepted in 325 AD and instructed the rest to be burned. Why are there other Gospels in the Vatican that are kept away from the public?
As far as I am concerned, I feel Christianity as another great religion and I must respect their belief. Why I raise this is because like other many Christians, you are not aware about the true origin of Christianity.
You must ask why the teaching of the bible is so diffrent from Judaism. In the bible we have the concept of trinity, we have the cross, Christmas celebration on the birth date of the sun God and we have this rise after death (resurrection).
Christianity accepted the Old Testaments, the foundation of the teaching of Judaism, as part of the bible and yet we see not much similarity in them. Judaism stresses on the unity of God and completely Jewish in culture and spirit. Christianity talks about the blessed trinity and spread the message to the Gentiles, original sin (all of us are sinners) and Jesus being the saviour. Anthropologists noted there are strong Greek and Roman influence in the bible as against its predecessor, Judaism. And the writers - Luke, Mark and John had never met Jesus. The bible was written 70 - 100 years after the death of Jesus. Could there be anything not right? If the writers are people inspired by God why then there are noticeable discrepancies in the 4 Gospels? Can you trust the Council that decided on the gospels that are accepted in 325 AD and instructed the rest to be burned. Why are there other Gospels in the Vatican that are kept away from the public?
As far as I am concerned, I feel Christianity as another great religion and I must respect their belief. Why I raise this is because like other many Christians, you are not aware about the true origin of Christianity.
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written by OrdinaryMan, January 20, 2008 12:56:11
written by OrdinaryMan, January 20, 2008 12:56:11
Dear Panca Indera
I am truly glad someone took the trouble to interpret my two sens. Give me a chance to defend myself.
You said my knowledge of things around is not knowledge but just information gathered from my five senses.
I guess these five senses are enough. I don't need the non-physical emotion because it only served to complicate things.
Perhaps I did not paint the narrower picture in my brief utterance. I am trying to imagine a world without religion - one that is base on common sense and reasoning. Partly because I also happened to read RPK's reflection on his third stage of his life - the questioning stage. I have done a lot of questioning myself. Having being brought up in a missionary school and being drilled moral lessons every morning did somewhat put me on a bias footing for Christianity. However when one begins to question one somehow sees things in a different light.
What if religion is suddenly gone? Granted there will still be wars and misery. People will still kill one another out of greed, jealously, revenge, whatever. But at least they are not using religion as an excuse to kill. Do you know that more people are killed in the name of religion than all the wars put together? And look what religion has done to Malaysia?
You asked me if I am a irresponsible person? I don't condone killing or raping or robbing. You wrote in big capital letters IF YOU ARE NOT CAUGHT? Problem is, Panca Indera, if you ARE CAUGHT committing the same evil deeds but masquerading under the guise of a holy cause you are REWARDED!
You don't need religion to teach you love and kindness. The golden rule 'Do undo others...' has no religion background. If I am not mistaken the religious version has more sinister implications.
Enough said, I think religion is founded by mere mortal man. And man is NOT infallible.
Cheers.
I am truly glad someone took the trouble to interpret my two sens. Give me a chance to defend myself.
You said my knowledge of things around is not knowledge but just information gathered from my five senses.
I guess these five senses are enough. I don't need the non-physical emotion because it only served to complicate things.
Perhaps I did not paint the narrower picture in my brief utterance. I am trying to imagine a world without religion - one that is base on common sense and reasoning. Partly because I also happened to read RPK's reflection on his third stage of his life - the questioning stage. I have done a lot of questioning myself. Having being brought up in a missionary school and being drilled moral lessons every morning did somewhat put me on a bias footing for Christianity. However when one begins to question one somehow sees things in a different light.
What if religion is suddenly gone? Granted there will still be wars and misery. People will still kill one another out of greed, jealously, revenge, whatever. But at least they are not using religion as an excuse to kill. Do you know that more people are killed in the name of religion than all the wars put together? And look what religion has done to Malaysia?
You asked me if I am a irresponsible person? I don't condone killing or raping or robbing. You wrote in big capital letters IF YOU ARE NOT CAUGHT? Problem is, Panca Indera, if you ARE CAUGHT committing the same evil deeds but masquerading under the guise of a holy cause you are REWARDED!
You don't need religion to teach you love and kindness. The golden rule 'Do undo others...' has no religion background. If I am not mistaken the religious version has more sinister implications.
Enough said, I think religion is founded by mere mortal man. And man is NOT infallible.
Cheers.
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 20, 2008 12:54:14
written by Rohani Hitam, January 20, 2008 12:54:14
Temenggong,
We need the Imam to decide on certain issues. We are not the expert and don't talk about thinking logic. You can never tell. Even the Hadiths can be misinterpreted. Islam recognises this and that is why we have the hukum Ma'mum, to allow the Imam to decide. And if the Imam is wrong, we are not to be blamed. The Imam takes a heavy responsibility. If he decided on political consideration rather than theological, he has to answer in the after life.
You can claim so many things like eating pork is not haram. You have to prove to me by being qualified as the next Imam Mufti before I can listen to you. Meanwhile you are just another talker by the coffee shop.
We need the Imam to decide on certain issues. We are not the expert and don't talk about thinking logic. You can never tell. Even the Hadiths can be misinterpreted. Islam recognises this and that is why we have the hukum Ma'mum, to allow the Imam to decide. And if the Imam is wrong, we are not to be blamed. The Imam takes a heavy responsibility. If he decided on political consideration rather than theological, he has to answer in the after life.
You can claim so many things like eating pork is not haram. You have to prove to me by being qualified as the next Imam Mufti before I can listen to you. Meanwhile you are just another talker by the coffee shop.
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written by Avanza1, January 20, 2008 12:18:44
written by Avanza1, January 20, 2008 12:18:44
>>written by Panca Indera, January 20, 2008 | 00:40:27
Nope! No problem as a prophet. Only if he is God.
That you need to read the promises of God found in the old testaments. The answer is there in your 1910 copy of bible.
>>I do know his teachings in the New Testament(I have the King James Bible, remember) the Gospels according to Mark, Mathew, Luke and John. I also read another version of Jesus PBUH gospels written by one of his other disciples ( Hawaris in Arabic)) not recognized by the Vatican and Church . It is called theâ€ÂGospels of Barnabasâ€Â. Very Interesting.
Do you find the teachings of Jesus and teachings from Allah in Quran any different? Is it the same God saying 2 different sets of contradictings? Both are correct or only one is correct? "Gospel of Barnabas" Very interesting. That has been proven a 14th Century fake. Enjoy the original 14th century Davinci Code.
written by Panca Indera, January 14, 2008 | 15:03:51
the Apostle Paul was the one who incorporated the concept of God the Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost(Trinity) into Christianity to win over the Power that be in Rome as it was similar to their Beliefs i.e. the God Zeus, son of Cronus and Rhea, and of the Pantheon of gods etc.etc.â€Â
Can you please explain more on this?
Nope! No problem as a prophet. Only if he is God.
That you need to read the promises of God found in the old testaments. The answer is there in your 1910 copy of bible.
>>I do know his teachings in the New Testament(I have the King James Bible, remember) the Gospels according to Mark, Mathew, Luke and John. I also read another version of Jesus PBUH gospels written by one of his other disciples ( Hawaris in Arabic)) not recognized by the Vatican and Church . It is called theâ€ÂGospels of Barnabasâ€Â. Very Interesting.
Do you find the teachings of Jesus and teachings from Allah in Quran any different? Is it the same God saying 2 different sets of contradictings? Both are correct or only one is correct? "Gospel of Barnabas" Very interesting. That has been proven a 14th Century fake. Enjoy the original 14th century Davinci Code.
written by Panca Indera, January 14, 2008 | 15:03:51
the Apostle Paul was the one who incorporated the concept of God the Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost(Trinity) into Christianity to win over the Power that be in Rome as it was similar to their Beliefs i.e. the God Zeus, son of Cronus and Rhea, and of the Pantheon of gods etc.etc.â€Â
Can you please explain more on this?
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written by Avanza1, January 20, 2008 11:58:17
written by Avanza1, January 20, 2008 11:58:17
>>written by Rohani Hitam, January 20, 2008 | 09:33:13
But if the authority says that we must vote for BN than that is not a FATWA. That is HARAM
** Thank you sister RH. I hope you are clear on the teachings of Isa Al-Masih in the period, culture and environment of Bani Israel in the land of Palestine. There are more it, if you want to know more please get a copy of the bible and read the first 5 books. From Genesis to Dueteronomy. It is the same with the Torah. May God Bless you.
But if the authority says that we must vote for BN than that is not a FATWA. That is HARAM
** Thank you sister RH. I hope you are clear on the teachings of Isa Al-Masih in the period, culture and environment of Bani Israel in the land of Palestine. There are more it, if you want to know more please get a copy of the bible and read the first 5 books. From Genesis to Dueteronomy. It is the same with the Torah. May God Bless you.
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written by temenggong, January 20, 2008 04:49:45
written by temenggong, January 20, 2008 04:49:45
PIGS and PORK ARE NEVER MADE HARAM IN QURAN.
Thats right. Its clear as hell. The confusion would not have arisen if people had just taken the trouble to read the quran. I guess nobody did in the last 1400 years but instead relied on others.
And the others do not know the meaning of 'haram'.
Thats right. Its clear as hell. The confusion would not have arisen if people had just taken the trouble to read the quran. I guess nobody did in the last 1400 years but instead relied on others.
And the others do not know the meaning of 'haram'.
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written by temenggong, January 20, 2008 04:10:29
written by temenggong, January 20, 2008 04:10:29
What not found (in the quran) we rely on the Majlis Fatwa Negara to decide.
Did the quran advice that? Rohani, I hope you will review that position.
What not found in the quran means the quran takes no position on it, leaving it largely flexible and secular. It is up to you. But one is adviced to use one's rationality, not resort to fatwas, councils, mufti's, etc.
Did the quran advice that? Rohani, I hope you will review that position.
What not found in the quran means the quran takes no position on it, leaving it largely flexible and secular. It is up to you. But one is adviced to use one's rationality, not resort to fatwas, councils, mufti's, etc.
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 20, 2008 01:33:13
written by Rohani Hitam, January 20, 2008 01:33:13
Avanza1,
To us Muslims, the Quran is already complete and that is why we don't bother what is written in the Old Testaments. What the Quran says we follow. What not found we rely on the Majlis Fatwa Negara to decide. That is how we practise Islam. But if the authority says that we must vote for BN than that is not a FATWA. That is HARAM.
To us Muslims, the Quran is already complete and that is why we don't bother what is written in the Old Testaments. What the Quran says we follow. What not found we rely on the Majlis Fatwa Negara to decide. That is how we practise Islam. But if the authority says that we must vote for BN than that is not a FATWA. That is HARAM.
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 20, 2008 01:28:12
written by Rohani Hitam, January 20, 2008 01:28:12
Admiril Tojo wrote:
PIGS and PORK ARE NEVER MADE HARAM IN QURAN. The advise is to NOT eat ROTTEN MEAT that you see - WA LAHMAL KHINZIR.
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You sound like an ustazz. Please convey this message of yours to the Council of FATWAs so that we can quickly join you for the bacon and eggs every morning.
PIGS and PORK ARE NEVER MADE HARAM IN QURAN. The advise is to NOT eat ROTTEN MEAT that you see - WA LAHMAL KHINZIR.
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You sound like an ustazz. Please convey this message of yours to the Council of FATWAs so that we can quickly join you for the bacon and eggs every morning.
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written by Panca Indera, January 19, 2008 16:40:27
written by Panca Indera, January 19, 2008 16:40:27
Dear Avanza1
quote; Unless your story is not following the story of the Prophets of Ibrahim, Ishak and Yaakob. If all of the prophets are Africans then what is the problem? I don't see any. Do you?
Nope! No problem as a prophet. Only if he is God.
In other words we do not limit Allah to our comprehension or understanding.
I agree. So we refer back to His words. (WYSIWYG, Ok! I won’t argue)
>>Can you explain the external factors that caused God to become Jesus using your argument of water, ice and vapour?
>>meaning that GOD exist in three different forms at different times
More of internal factor. His love for you and me. (, Ok! I won’t argue)
What I meant was did the Quran specifically delivered Isa Al-Masih's teachings and His message to Mankind.
The Quran delivered the Final Message by Muhammad PBUH the messenger/prophet, just as we believed Jesus PBHU delivered the message before that in the Original New Testament.
If you do not know what are his teachings how would you follow?
I do know his teachings in the New Testament(I have the King James Bible, remember) the Gospels according to Mark, Mathew, Luke and John. I also read another version of Jesus PBUH gospels written by one of his other disciples ( Hawaris in Arabic)) not recognized by the Vatican and Church . It is called theâ€ÂGospels of Barnabasâ€Â. Very Interesting.
I am still on my long journey with HIM but I will pray for you too to find the real true God. Even you may have found your own God.
Avanza!, Your God and my Allah is the same God as the Jews’ Yehweh or Elohim. There is no difference except you believed in Trinity, we don’t, God is God is God not God is Jesus is Holy Ghost, that’s all .
Note: Of course there are Major differences in the Beliefs/values but the God is same.Dig?
Thank you for your wishes and May Allah guide and bless your and your undertakings.
Note: To Admiral Tojo
I cannot help smiling, reading Admiral Tojo ranting!
Pleeease do us a favor and commit Harakiri, will you.Ha Ha
Banzaiiiiiiiii
Salam
quote; Unless your story is not following the story of the Prophets of Ibrahim, Ishak and Yaakob. If all of the prophets are Africans then what is the problem? I don't see any. Do you?
Nope! No problem as a prophet. Only if he is God.
In other words we do not limit Allah to our comprehension or understanding.
I agree. So we refer back to His words. (WYSIWYG, Ok! I won’t argue)
>>Can you explain the external factors that caused God to become Jesus using your argument of water, ice and vapour?
>>meaning that GOD exist in three different forms at different times
More of internal factor. His love for you and me. (, Ok! I won’t argue)
What I meant was did the Quran specifically delivered Isa Al-Masih's teachings and His message to Mankind.
The Quran delivered the Final Message by Muhammad PBUH the messenger/prophet, just as we believed Jesus PBHU delivered the message before that in the Original New Testament.
If you do not know what are his teachings how would you follow?
I do know his teachings in the New Testament(I have the King James Bible, remember) the Gospels according to Mark, Mathew, Luke and John. I also read another version of Jesus PBUH gospels written by one of his other disciples ( Hawaris in Arabic)) not recognized by the Vatican and Church . It is called theâ€ÂGospels of Barnabasâ€Â. Very Interesting.
I am still on my long journey with HIM but I will pray for you too to find the real true God. Even you may have found your own God.
Avanza!, Your God and my Allah is the same God as the Jews’ Yehweh or Elohim. There is no difference except you believed in Trinity, we don’t, God is God is God not God is Jesus is Holy Ghost, that’s all .
Note: Of course there are Major differences in the Beliefs/values but the God is same.Dig?
Thank you for your wishes and May Allah guide and bless your and your undertakings.
Note: To Admiral Tojo
I cannot help smiling, reading Admiral Tojo ranting!
Pleeease do us a favor and commit Harakiri, will you.Ha Ha
Banzaiiiiiiiii
Salam
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written by Avanza1, January 19, 2008 14:53:26
written by Avanza1, January 19, 2008 14:53:26
written by Panca Indera, January 18, 2008 | 13:07:15
Who have put limitation on God by saying that He has to come down to earth to appear as a man?
Don't quite understand yr question here? Thot you have limited God by saying he will not come down and live among us? Lets not get racial here but if the story line continues then shouldn't it continue as the same family line? Unless your story is not folloiwng the story of the Phrophets of Ibrahim, Ishak and Yaakob. If all of the prophets are Africans then what is the problem? I don't see any. Do you?
>>In other words we do not limit Allah to our comprehension or understanding.
I agree. So we refer back to His words.
>>Can you explain the external factors that caused God to become Jesus using your argument of water, ice and vapour?
>>meaning that GOD exist in three different forms at different times
More of internal factor. His love for you and me.
>>No! all the words are in black against white background.
Thank you for being literal. Sorry, I did not make it clear. What I meant was did the Quran specifically delivered Isa Al-Masih's teachings and His message to Mankind. If you do not know what are his teachings how would you follow?
>>Find the real God first.
I am still on my long journey with HIM but I will pray for you too to find the real true God. Even you may have found your own God. End of it make God happy and not devil happy. God bless.
Who have put limitation on God by saying that He has to come down to earth to appear as a man?
Don't quite understand yr question here? Thot you have limited God by saying he will not come down and live among us? Lets not get racial here but if the story line continues then shouldn't it continue as the same family line? Unless your story is not folloiwng the story of the Phrophets of Ibrahim, Ishak and Yaakob. If all of the prophets are Africans then what is the problem? I don't see any. Do you?
>>In other words we do not limit Allah to our comprehension or understanding.
I agree. So we refer back to His words.
>>Can you explain the external factors that caused God to become Jesus using your argument of water, ice and vapour?
>>meaning that GOD exist in three different forms at different times
More of internal factor. His love for you and me.
>>No! all the words are in black against white background.
Thank you for being literal. Sorry, I did not make it clear. What I meant was did the Quran specifically delivered Isa Al-Masih's teachings and His message to Mankind. If you do not know what are his teachings how would you follow?
>>Find the real God first.
I am still on my long journey with HIM but I will pray for you too to find the real true God. Even you may have found your own God. End of it make God happy and not devil happy. God bless.
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written by Avanza1, January 19, 2008 14:52:10
written by Avanza1, January 19, 2008 14:52:10
written by Rohani Hitam, January 18, 2008 | 09:00:00
I am not going to trouble myself searching for the verses in the Torah or Zabur.
>> Are not interested in what Nabi Musa thought the Bani Israel what not to eat? You could me eating a few of the unclean food if you do not bother to find out. Did the Quran summarized the list of unclean food from torah? If you may wish read the book of Leviticus. God bless you sister. ( I assume your are a female)
I am not going to trouble myself searching for the verses in the Torah or Zabur.
>> Are not interested in what Nabi Musa thought the Bani Israel what not to eat? You could me eating a few of the unclean food if you do not bother to find out. Did the Quran summarized the list of unclean food from torah? If you may wish read the book of Leviticus. God bless you sister. ( I assume your are a female)
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written by Admiral Tojo, January 19, 2008 13:04:50
written by Admiral Tojo, January 19, 2008 13:04:50
I forgot, the advise is NOT to eat ROTTEN MEAT, inclusive of Rotten beef - foot and mouth, rotten chicken - bird flu, and rotten pork - JI. Wa lahmal khinzir - and meat rotten I see.
Now do you get it? Or are your minds shackled?
Salaam/Shalom/Peace
Now do you get it? Or are your minds shackled?
Salaam/Shalom/Peace
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written by Admiral Tojo, January 19, 2008 12:25:54
written by Admiral Tojo, January 19, 2008 12:25:54
All this hulla ballu about the delicious pork. Wa lahmal khinzir - and meat rotten I see. Were does it say meat of swine, pig etc???? Just because your Uztass says it is meat of pigs, you believe him without doing your analysis. PIGS and PORK ARE NEVER MADE HARAM IN QURAN. The advise is to NOT eat ROTTEN MEAT that you see - WA LAHMAL KHINZIR.
Now I am having bacon and eggs, Bismillah, care to join me???
Salaam/Shalom/Peace
Now I am having bacon and eggs, Bismillah, care to join me???
Salaam/Shalom/Peace
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written by Anak Desa, January 19, 2008 06:25:30
written by Anak Desa, January 19, 2008 06:25:30
written by Saint, December 23, 2007 | 19:03:03
The Hindus have six different religions, saints and holy books but all still believe in "One God"
And the Hindus came to this "vision" even before Christ was born. We still believe in the six "different Gods", but are aware that all the six religions are refereeing to the "same One God" but in different ways.So for the six of us who call ourselves as "Hindus" under one banner, still believe that all the people of the six religion will go to "heaven" as long as one practices one's religion correctly. And killing for your faith is still killing - you do not go to heaven after you have killed an innocent one. It is because our faith in the"One God" is so strong we do not convert other's, because by doing so we do not believe in the "One God" concept
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In Hinduism,there isnt 6 different religion but 6 different way of praying to "One God"."Aum"pranaya is the word as "A" starts the word and "Aum"is the sound.In a person,there is many qualities,that is maleness,feminine,rich,bravery,thoughts,action and so forth. This same applies to God as this is where the people tap the energy within oneself.In the end, all the versions of the god /goddess is one.
In Hinduism,there is 48 saints (Nayanars)who has attained the sainthood.There is no force or trying conversion of people's of other faiths into Hinduism.Hinduism is a way of life,a natural and you can pray the way you want but within the guidelines drawn.Before the brahmin priests control the religion with their own set of rules which retards the growth of the community.
This same thing is now happening in Malaysia where the Imams doing to the Muslim Malaysians during the friday prayers
The Hindus have six different religions, saints and holy books but all still believe in "One God"
And the Hindus came to this "vision" even before Christ was born. We still believe in the six "different Gods", but are aware that all the six religions are refereeing to the "same One God" but in different ways.So for the six of us who call ourselves as "Hindus" under one banner, still believe that all the people of the six religion will go to "heaven" as long as one practices one's religion correctly. And killing for your faith is still killing - you do not go to heaven after you have killed an innocent one. It is because our faith in the"One God" is so strong we do not convert other's, because by doing so we do not believe in the "One God" concept
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In Hinduism,there isnt 6 different religion but 6 different way of praying to "One God"."Aum"pranaya is the word as "A" starts the word and "Aum"is the sound.In a person,there is many qualities,that is maleness,feminine,rich,bravery,thoughts,action and so forth. This same applies to God as this is where the people tap the energy within oneself.In the end, all the versions of the god /goddess is one.
In Hinduism,there is 48 saints (Nayanars)who has attained the sainthood.There is no force or trying conversion of people's of other faiths into Hinduism.Hinduism is a way of life,a natural and you can pray the way you want but within the guidelines drawn.Before the brahmin priests control the religion with their own set of rules which retards the growth of the community.
This same thing is now happening in Malaysia where the Imams doing to the Muslim Malaysians during the friday prayers
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written by Panca Indera, January 19, 2008 04:48:42
written by Panca Indera, January 19, 2008 04:48:42
Hey OrdinaryMan, you are a funnyman
you saidYou know all these things because you possess the knowledge to recognize them.
Its not knowledge, its information based on your five physical senses, sight, hearing, touch, smell, taste and one non physical sense, i.e. Emotions(anger, sad, happy, etc.etc)
To know what they are and what they can do.
(i.e. based on your information, understanding and conclusion. Take one or more of your senses away, you are lost and probably come to the wrong conclusion.
The living proof. God is Knowledge. Knowledge is God.
Yes FunnyMan, your above statement is 100% correct( How did you do it? )
Try to understand your own statement.
Not some fanciful Faith which resides in the imagination without an iota of proof.
Correct again! Faith or beliefs without proof/reasons/logics is a No,No.
And talking about heaven and hell. There are no such places. Heaven is but a pipe dream.
You don't go to heaven when you do something good.
Are you one of the people whose parents (or a parent yourself)who did not reward/punish their child for doing good or bad ?
Why do you think we have Prisons built for?
To put innocent people behind bars(like Annuar Ibrahim)?
Neither will you go to hell if you go something bad. Because there are no such places. When you die you die. Period. Ashes to ashes. Dust to dust.
Are you an irresponsible person?
You have just condone thousands if not millions of people to rape, pillage, murder, rob or do whatever they desire (AS LONG AS YOU ARE NOT CAUGHT!!!) (just like the BN) without thinking or considering the welfare or social security of others.
You don’t think a person who for example(God Forbid) rape your sister or murder your mother should be punish and go to hell?
I think this is a safer proposition to forward to a fanatic instead of having him blow himself (and others) to bits thinking he will go to heaven for dying for some fanciful religious cause.
This sound like the story about the fox and the sour grapes, Heard of it?
Try to imagine yourself as a Palestinian refugee whose ancestral home were taken forcefully without any financial compensation and live from hand to mouth in squalid and overcrowded camps.
Try to imagine that some powerful, greedy, cruel tyrant(ruler) has stripped you of your dignity by abusing your family, murdering the people you loved most and you are powerless to do anything.?
Try imagining yourself being a destitute with no hope at all to get out of the miserable conditions and surrounding?
ARE YOU GOING TO SIT STILL AND ACCEPT ALL THIS WITH A SMILING AND HAPPY FACE,OR ARE YOU GOING TO FIGHT A RIGHTEOUS FIGHT AGAINST ALL THE INJUSTICES THAT YOU HAVE SUFFERED?
If you say yes, you are not OdinaryMan but a coward and a slave.
But if you are going to stand up not only for your rights but your brethrens as well, then you are a brave warrior, a HERO and I salute you my SuperiorMan.
Don’t wait for Malaysia to become like Palestine or Sri Lanka or Iraq or Kenya.
Salam
you saidYou know all these things because you possess the knowledge to recognize them.
Its not knowledge, its information based on your five physical senses, sight, hearing, touch, smell, taste and one non physical sense, i.e. Emotions(anger, sad, happy, etc.etc)
To know what they are and what they can do.
(i.e. based on your information, understanding and conclusion. Take one or more of your senses away, you are lost and probably come to the wrong conclusion.
The living proof. God is Knowledge. Knowledge is God.
Yes FunnyMan, your above statement is 100% correct( How did you do it? )
Try to understand your own statement.
Not some fanciful Faith which resides in the imagination without an iota of proof.
Correct again! Faith or beliefs without proof/reasons/logics is a No,No.
And talking about heaven and hell. There are no such places. Heaven is but a pipe dream.
You don't go to heaven when you do something good.
Are you one of the people whose parents (or a parent yourself)who did not reward/punish their child for doing good or bad ?
Why do you think we have Prisons built for?
To put innocent people behind bars(like Annuar Ibrahim)?
Neither will you go to hell if you go something bad. Because there are no such places. When you die you die. Period. Ashes to ashes. Dust to dust.
Are you an irresponsible person?
You have just condone thousands if not millions of people to rape, pillage, murder, rob or do whatever they desire (AS LONG AS YOU ARE NOT CAUGHT!!!) (just like the BN) without thinking or considering the welfare or social security of others.
You don’t think a person who for example(God Forbid) rape your sister or murder your mother should be punish and go to hell?
I think this is a safer proposition to forward to a fanatic instead of having him blow himself (and others) to bits thinking he will go to heaven for dying for some fanciful religious cause.
This sound like the story about the fox and the sour grapes, Heard of it?
Try to imagine yourself as a Palestinian refugee whose ancestral home were taken forcefully without any financial compensation and live from hand to mouth in squalid and overcrowded camps.
Try to imagine that some powerful, greedy, cruel tyrant(ruler) has stripped you of your dignity by abusing your family, murdering the people you loved most and you are powerless to do anything.?
Try imagining yourself being a destitute with no hope at all to get out of the miserable conditions and surrounding?
ARE YOU GOING TO SIT STILL AND ACCEPT ALL THIS WITH A SMILING AND HAPPY FACE,OR ARE YOU GOING TO FIGHT A RIGHTEOUS FIGHT AGAINST ALL THE INJUSTICES THAT YOU HAVE SUFFERED?
If you say yes, you are not OdinaryMan but a coward and a slave.
But if you are going to stand up not only for your rights but your brethrens as well, then you are a brave warrior, a HERO and I salute you my SuperiorMan.
Don’t wait for Malaysia to become like Palestine or Sri Lanka or Iraq or Kenya.
Salam
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written by OrdinaryMan, January 18, 2008 15:09:57
written by OrdinaryMan, January 18, 2008 15:09:57
Hey. I think you guys got it all wrong.
I'll tell you what God really is. Look around you. What do you see? You see cars, you see TVs, you see airplanes, etc. etc. All these are real tangible things. Things you can see, you can touch, you can relate to. You know all these things because you possess the knowledge to recognize them. To know what they are and what they can do. This is Science and Technology. The living proof. God is knowledge. Knowledge is God. Not some fanciful Faith which resides in the imagination without an iota of proof.
And talking about heaven and hell. There are no such places. Heaven is but a pipe dream. You don't go to heaven when you do something good. Neither will you go to hell if you go something bad. Because there are no such places. When you die you die. Period. Ashes to ashes. Dust to dust.
I think this is a safer proposition to forward to a fanatic instead of having him blow himself (and others) to bits thinking he will go to heaven for dying for some fanciful religious cause.
I'll tell you what God really is. Look around you. What do you see? You see cars, you see TVs, you see airplanes, etc. etc. All these are real tangible things. Things you can see, you can touch, you can relate to. You know all these things because you possess the knowledge to recognize them. To know what they are and what they can do. This is Science and Technology. The living proof. God is knowledge. Knowledge is God. Not some fanciful Faith which resides in the imagination without an iota of proof.
And talking about heaven and hell. There are no such places. Heaven is but a pipe dream. You don't go to heaven when you do something good. Neither will you go to hell if you go something bad. Because there are no such places. When you die you die. Period. Ashes to ashes. Dust to dust.
I think this is a safer proposition to forward to a fanatic instead of having him blow himself (and others) to bits thinking he will go to heaven for dying for some fanciful religious cause.
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written by Panca Indera, January 18, 2008 05:07:15
written by Panca Indera, January 18, 2008 05:07:15
From Avanza1:â€ÂFrom you. You have limited God the Almighty. Is God that Almighty that he cannot do what he would not do?
Think carefully Avanzal,
Who have put limitation on God by saying that He has to come down to earth to appear as a man?
Who have put God took the form of a Semite race and a man(So the other races have to pray to that particular God). Have you ever seen a black statue of Jesus to represent the African Christians?
The Universal God, Allah is indescribable by Man(No limits, whatever or whoever one imagine to be God is not God), for example, God sees but not with eyes, He hears, but not with ears, He speaks, but not with mouth or voice etc etc. In other words we do not limit Allah to our comprehension or understanding.
If you study the Bible you would know that was his promise to Man. God in the form of defective human body but did not sin, is something you can start with in your search in the bible.
Thank you for admitting that your God took the form of a defective human body. He has limitation .
Can you explain the external factors that caused God to become Jesus using your argument of water, ice and vapour?
That was for Trinity. Why God came down for you and me is found in the Bible.
You still have not explain the external factors, you just said that was for trinity(without proof). I know what is Trinity means. But since you used water, ice and vapor to explained Trinity,( meaning that GOD exist in three different forms at different times).i.e.
Just like the temperature of H20 causes the changes, what causes the changes in God?
All you got to say is:
1. there is no external factors
2. Its God own decision to become what He chooses when he chooses
I can take it even though I disagree.
Muslims also believe God can do everything and chooses whatever He wants, but they will NOT go as far as He chose to be Jesus. Now if Jesus was a man and not God then everything else makes sense,
Do the Quran mark the teachings of Jesus in red letters?
No! all the words are in black against white background.
If not how can you give him the respect and honour?
Respect and honor is not limited to color coding or in bold letters. Rather respect and honor is from trustworthiness, valor, wisdom, bravery in adversity, purity, sincerity, Truthful.
How can you follow the teachings from God?
Find the real God first, and to do that follow below:
First step, make an intention to the Universal God that you wish to follow His path only then take a ghusul .
Second find a clean place(no Idols or statue) with no distraction ( best is in the middle of the night when everybody is asleep).
Third: sincerely plead and beg(on your hands and knees), like a slave to a master for forgiveness on any wrong doings and ask for guidance. If it does not work the first time, check the steps that you missed and do again and again.
Think carefully Avanzal,
Who have put limitation on God by saying that He has to come down to earth to appear as a man?
Who have put God took the form of a Semite race and a man(So the other races have to pray to that particular God). Have you ever seen a black statue of Jesus to represent the African Christians?
The Universal God, Allah is indescribable by Man(No limits, whatever or whoever one imagine to be God is not God), for example, God sees but not with eyes, He hears, but not with ears, He speaks, but not with mouth or voice etc etc. In other words we do not limit Allah to our comprehension or understanding.
If you study the Bible you would know that was his promise to Man. God in the form of defective human body but did not sin, is something you can start with in your search in the bible.
Thank you for admitting that your God took the form of a defective human body. He has limitation .
Can you explain the external factors that caused God to become Jesus using your argument of water, ice and vapour?
That was for Trinity. Why God came down for you and me is found in the Bible.
You still have not explain the external factors, you just said that was for trinity(without proof). I know what is Trinity means. But since you used water, ice and vapor to explained Trinity,( meaning that GOD exist in three different forms at different times).i.e.
Just like the temperature of H20 causes the changes, what causes the changes in God?
All you got to say is:
1. there is no external factors
2. Its God own decision to become what He chooses when he chooses
I can take it even though I disagree.
Muslims also believe God can do everything and chooses whatever He wants, but they will NOT go as far as He chose to be Jesus. Now if Jesus was a man and not God then everything else makes sense,
Do the Quran mark the teachings of Jesus in red letters?
No! all the words are in black against white background.
If not how can you give him the respect and honour?
Respect and honor is not limited to color coding or in bold letters. Rather respect and honor is from trustworthiness, valor, wisdom, bravery in adversity, purity, sincerity, Truthful.
How can you follow the teachings from God?
Find the real God first, and to do that follow below:
First step, make an intention to the Universal God that you wish to follow His path only then take a ghusul .
Second find a clean place(no Idols or statue) with no distraction ( best is in the middle of the night when everybody is asleep).
Third: sincerely plead and beg(on your hands and knees), like a slave to a master for forgiveness on any wrong doings and ask for guidance. If it does not work the first time, check the steps that you missed and do again and again.
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written by CatV5, January 18, 2008 02:49:24
written by CatV5, January 18, 2008 02:49:24
Quote from RH
Are you suggesting that Islam forbid eating the flesh only and it is OK to have Bak Ku Teh, Kueh Chap or pig's organ?
Up to you if you want to. As long as it's not meat. If people really reflect based on the Quran, it's just that. You won't find anything more regarding pigs in quran except those verses. But the Muslims mental had been bondaged with the belief of anything regarding pig is haram. And it has been complicated more with Samak (washing with soil 7 times) which leads to people want to avoid this things. Even now i have a problem to release myself from this kind of mental bondage.
Yes it's something new to me. Maybe to you too, if you reflect. I don't have to declare to you i am what religion/sect/mazhab. I only submit myself to God/Allah/Yhweh/Ar-Rahman/Ar-Rahim/The gracious/The merciful. Quran(means the reading) is the last of His words to us human. I believe in His guides. If i'm wrong i'll answer to Him when the Judgement day comes. Only He knows the answer.
Maybe any Muslim would be hellfired if i say this directly. Who are they to judge my belief? And who i am to judge them? We're just humans, full of weaknesses. Like i said, this is just a reminder. And i'm not planning to convert anyone. No point.
I hope we clear on that.
Peace
Are you suggesting that Islam forbid eating the flesh only and it is OK to have Bak Ku Teh, Kueh Chap or pig's organ?
Up to you if you want to. As long as it's not meat.
If people really reflect based on the Quran, it's just that. You won't find anything more regarding pigs in quran except those verses. But the Muslims mental had been bondaged with the belief of anything regarding pig is haram. And it has been complicated more with Samak (washing with soil 7 times) which leads to people want to avoid this things. Even now i have a problem to release myself from this kind of mental bondage. Yes it's something new to me. Maybe to you too, if you reflect. I don't have to declare to you i am what religion/sect/mazhab. I only submit myself to God/Allah/Yhweh/Ar-Rahman/Ar-Rahim/The gracious/The merciful. Quran(means the reading) is the last of His words to us human. I believe in His guides. If i'm wrong i'll answer to Him when the Judgement day comes. Only He knows the answer.
Maybe any Muslim would be hellfired if i say this directly. Who are they to judge my belief? And who i am to judge them? We're just humans, full of weaknesses. Like i said, this is just a reminder. And i'm not planning to convert anyone. No point.
I hope we clear on that.
Peace
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 18, 2008 01:15:08
written by Rohani Hitam, January 18, 2008 01:15:08
CatV5 wrote:
"Yes i agree with that, but not up to level where it's the last food available to survive. If had to, just go with it. But don't enjoy it. God knows what you think. Simple."
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Hei... this is something new. Are you a Muslim? Which sect you belong to? Do you accept new converts? We can have suckling pig or roasted pork ribs.
"Yes i agree with that, but not up to level where it's the last food available to survive. If had to, just go with it. But don't enjoy it. God knows what you think. Simple."
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Hei... this is something new. Are you a Muslim? Which sect you belong to? Do you accept new converts? We can have suckling pig or roasted pork ribs.
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 18, 2008 01:04:56
written by Rohani Hitam, January 18, 2008 01:04:56
CatV5 wrote:
"And my point of my argument is the forbidden part regarding to pig is the meat only. Have you read the verses that i gave you?"
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Are you suggesting that Islam forbid eating the flesh only and it is OK to have Bak Ku Teh, Kueh Chap or pig's organ?
"And my point of my argument is the forbidden part regarding to pig is the meat only. Have you read the verses that i gave you?"
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Are you suggesting that Islam forbid eating the flesh only and it is OK to have Bak Ku Teh, Kueh Chap or pig's organ?
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 18, 2008 01:00:00
written by Rohani Hitam, January 18, 2008 01:00:00
Avanza1,
The Jews forbid the eating of pork. That explains. I am not going to trouble myself searching for the verses in the Torah or Zabur. If you don't know than that is sad.
"You are telling Quran is following a practice from Torah text. Which comes first then? Torah or Quran. If Quran if the replacement of the corrupted text of Torah/Bible then why need to follow what Judaism said?"
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Islam does not say that the Torah is corrupted. Islam only make reference to the bible when making this comment. And Islam says that we should go back to the original teaching which is the teaching of Abraham in which case it is Judaism. And the teaching of Judaism forbid the eating of pork and the uphold the concept of unitarian God.
The Jews forbid the eating of pork. That explains. I am not going to trouble myself searching for the verses in the Torah or Zabur. If you don't know than that is sad.
"You are telling Quran is following a practice from Torah text. Which comes first then? Torah or Quran. If Quran if the replacement of the corrupted text of Torah/Bible then why need to follow what Judaism said?"
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Islam does not say that the Torah is corrupted. Islam only make reference to the bible when making this comment. And Islam says that we should go back to the original teaching which is the teaching of Abraham in which case it is Judaism. And the teaching of Judaism forbid the eating of pork and the uphold the concept of unitarian God.
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written by Avanza1, January 17, 2008 23:58:38
written by Avanza1, January 17, 2008 23:58:38
You are telling Quran is following a practice from Torah text. Which comes first then? Torah or Quran. If Quran if the replacement of the corrupted text of Torah/Bible then why need to follow what Judaism said?
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written by Avanza1, January 17, 2008 23:54:11
written by Avanza1, January 17, 2008 23:54:11
>>written by Rohani Hitam, January 16, 2008 | 23:32:36
Islam forbids the eating of pork because Judaism said so and it has to do with unclean spirit and not anything to do with hygiene.
If claim this is from Judaism, then can you quote from Torah on the subject? Don't hv to be in Hebrew, I won't understand either. English will do.
Islam forbids the eating of pork because Judaism said so and it has to do with unclean spirit and not anything to do with hygiene.
If claim this is from Judaism, then can you quote from Torah on the subject? Don't hv to be in Hebrew, I won't understand either. English will do.
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written by Avanza1, January 17, 2008 23:47:10
written by Avanza1, January 17, 2008 23:47:10
>>written by Panca Indera, January 15, 2008 | 08:34:38
I have a personal copy of the Bible (Kings James version printed in 1910 and given to me by an Irish Lady) where the word Paraclete is mentioned twice.
Good. I hope you will read the bible and let God reveal to you the truth. Can you verify if there is any references of Paraclete in the Quran?
>>Where did you get the idea that the Almighty is limited to the Heavens only, is it in the Quran or is it mentioned by some one?
>>If God took in Human form as Jesus, He must have He recreated himself right?
The Arch-Angle came and visited Mary and said she was going to have a son. Before that Mary was not pregnant. So something was created in Her womb right?
Hence the logic God must have created Himself Right?
From you. You have limited God the Almighty. Is God that Almighty that he cannot do what he would not do? If you study the Bible you would know that was his promise to Man. God in the form of defective human body but did not sin, is something you can start with in your search in the bible.
>>Dear Avanza! Can you can you explain the external factors that caused God to become Jesus using your argument of water, ice and vapour?
That was for Trinity. Why God came down for you and me is found in the Bible.
>> In fact a muslim claims all the red letters are Jesus's teachings but the red letters reads ' know that the Father and I are one'.
That is a sweeping statement without proof or evidence. I can also said a Christian claimed that he choose Christianity because he wanted to eat pork and drink wine and party all the time without feeling guilty .
Do the Quran mark the teachings of Jesus in red letters? If not how can you give him the respect and honour? How can you follow the teachings from God?
>>Anyway, Happy Hunting, I wish and hope you are as contented with your beliefs as I am with mine.
:-) Hunting? I've not done hunting. Fishing, yes.
I have a personal copy of the Bible (Kings James version printed in 1910 and given to me by an Irish Lady) where the word Paraclete is mentioned twice.
Good. I hope you will read the bible and let God reveal to you the truth. Can you verify if there is any references of Paraclete in the Quran?
>>Where did you get the idea that the Almighty is limited to the Heavens only, is it in the Quran or is it mentioned by some one?
>>If God took in Human form as Jesus, He must have He recreated himself right?
The Arch-Angle came and visited Mary and said she was going to have a son. Before that Mary was not pregnant. So something was created in Her womb right?
Hence the logic God must have created Himself Right?
From you. You have limited God the Almighty. Is God that Almighty that he cannot do what he would not do? If you study the Bible you would know that was his promise to Man. God in the form of defective human body but did not sin, is something you can start with in your search in the bible.
>>Dear Avanza! Can you can you explain the external factors that caused God to become Jesus using your argument of water, ice and vapour?
That was for Trinity. Why God came down for you and me is found in the Bible.
>> In fact a muslim claims all the red letters are Jesus's teachings but the red letters reads ' know that the Father and I are one'.
That is a sweeping statement without proof or evidence. I can also said a Christian claimed that he choose Christianity because he wanted to eat pork and drink wine and party all the time without feeling guilty .
Do the Quran mark the teachings of Jesus in red letters? If not how can you give him the respect and honour? How can you follow the teachings from God?
>>Anyway, Happy Hunting, I wish and hope you are as contented with your beliefs as I am with mine.
:-) Hunting? I've not done hunting. Fishing, yes.
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written by Avanza1, January 17, 2008 23:46:03
written by Avanza1, January 17, 2008 23:46:03
>>written by Rohani Hitam, January 15, 2008 | 07:57:03
That makes me a fool answering you the question.
Rohani, i do not consider you such as you are trying to share your knowledge in good faith. If what is posted is incorrect then it would be right that is it corrected. eg. the sign of the cross. On the same level you would appreciate if knowledge of the cresent and star is shared with you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_and_crescent. Thank you for allowing me to share my personal view on Christmas.
That makes me a fool answering you the question.
Rohani, i do not consider you such as you are trying to share your knowledge in good faith. If what is posted is incorrect then it would be right that is it corrected. eg. the sign of the cross. On the same level you would appreciate if knowledge of the cresent and star is shared with you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_and_crescent. Thank you for allowing me to share my personal view on Christmas.
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written by CatV5, January 17, 2008 02:33:01
written by CatV5, January 17, 2008 02:33:01
Dear Panca Indera,
In order to be more reliable and accurate in your debate or information, please give the full text and not edited or cut and paste as it can be misleading(unless its your own make-up).
Well um i did put the link right? Is that wrong too? I just make a list out of those verse too, based on the verse on the link. And i am really careful with it too. But yeah it's just me. i make mistake i guess. I just want to simplify my argument so that people can see my point.
Concerning to verse 5:3 i admit, i forget to refer to that verse also, thanks for pointing out. On the slaughter terms i have to study what the arabic of slaughter cuz i had a feeling there is no slaughter term in the verses. I don't want to debate on slaughter thank you.
“the New medical studies have proved the amazing wonderful effects of the hearing of the name of God (Allah) on both the person who slaughters and the conscious live animal. It was found that it acts as a sedative on both and to purify the meat of the animal from any blood or bacteria. Scientific medical evidences have shown the humanity of the Islamic method of slaughter. Till now there is no single scientific medical evidence in the whole world that does prove that the Islamic method of animal slaughter (Arabic word: zhabihah) does cause any pain or suffering to the slaughtered animal.
Cause pain and suffering? try slaughter your neck, i'm sure it's painful. just kidding. But i'm sure that it's better to relieve all the blood out of the body. I don't like chicken with blood at it's meat. Still, any vegetarians sure would say its cruel... no doubt about that.
It is the duty of the imams and the Muslim media to educate this small minority of uneducated Muslims who give a bad name to Islam and Muslims.
Is it really just their duty? not you and me? not themselves too? I belief this kind of mentality has to change. Everybody must be responsible for themselves. Everybody must seek and verify the knowledge themselves. Cuz at the end it is only us alone that will have to answer to the Higher Power. Quran says this a lot. I'm sure you are aware of this too.
Just because most information are inaccurate, do not discard/disbelieve or reject all Hadiths. Use your intellect and power of reasoning to analyst and understand using the Quran as reference.
Well uh correct me if i'm wrong.. i'm using my power of reasoning to analyze it and understand no? This is the conclusion that i made after studying the materials from Quran and it's interpretations of Quran from other people. There are plenty of translations for you to study. Find it. May God show you the way.
I admit i did not go through hadith cuz i belief it is full of contradictions, too many volumes and would make my head spin, i've tried it. I'm not rejecting it. It's my belief anyway not asking you to follow me. I'm just trying to provoke your minds. To make you go out there and seek the truth by yoursef. But if you still want to close your heart and only except what you heard from people, it's your call I don't blame you, i know how that felt, i was once ignorant of what's happening around me. But Panca Indera already did some studies i'm sure.
Hope it could spark something inside.
Just a reminder, No offense
Peace
In order to be more reliable and accurate in your debate or information, please give the full text and not edited or cut and paste as it can be misleading(unless its your own make-up).
Well um i did put the link right? Is that wrong too? I just make a list out of those verse too, based on the verse on the link. And i am really careful with it too. But yeah it's just me. i make mistake i guess. I just want to simplify my argument so that people can see my point.
Concerning to verse 5:3 i admit, i forget to refer to that verse also, thanks for pointing out. On the slaughter terms i have to study what the arabic of slaughter cuz i had a feeling there is no slaughter term in the verses. I don't want to debate on slaughter thank you.
“the New medical studies have proved the amazing wonderful effects of the hearing of the name of God (Allah) on both the person who slaughters and the conscious live animal. It was found that it acts as a sedative on both and to purify the meat of the animal from any blood or bacteria. Scientific medical evidences have shown the humanity of the Islamic method of slaughter. Till now there is no single scientific medical evidence in the whole world that does prove that the Islamic method of animal slaughter (Arabic word: zhabihah) does cause any pain or suffering to the slaughtered animal.
Cause pain and suffering? try slaughter your neck, i'm sure it's painful.
just kidding. But i'm sure that it's better to relieve all the blood out of the body. I don't like chicken with blood at it's meat. Still, any vegetarians sure would say its cruel... no doubt about that. It is the duty of the imams and the Muslim media to educate this small minority of uneducated Muslims who give a bad name to Islam and Muslims.
Is it really just their duty? not you and me? not themselves too? I belief this kind of mentality has to change. Everybody must be responsible for themselves. Everybody must seek and verify the knowledge themselves. Cuz at the end it is only us alone that will have to answer to the Higher Power. Quran says this a lot. I'm sure you are aware of this too.
Just because most information are inaccurate, do not discard/disbelieve or reject all Hadiths. Use your intellect and power of reasoning to analyst and understand using the Quran as reference.
Well uh correct me if i'm wrong.. i'm using my power of reasoning to analyze it and understand no? This is the conclusion that i made after studying the materials from Quran and it's interpretations of Quran from other people. There are plenty of translations for you to study. Find it. May God show you the way.
I admit i did not go through hadith cuz i belief it is full of contradictions, too many volumes and would make my head spin, i've tried it. I'm not rejecting it. It's my belief anyway not asking you to follow me. I'm just trying to provoke your minds. To make you go out there and seek the truth by yoursef. But if you still want to close your heart and only except what you heard from people, it's your call I don't blame you, i know how that felt, i was once ignorant of what's happening around me. But Panca Indera already did some studies i'm sure.
Hope it could spark something inside.
Just a reminder, No offense
Peace
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written by CatV5, January 17, 2008 01:48:58
written by CatV5, January 17, 2008 01:48:58
Dear RH,
Islam forbids the eating of pork because Judaism said so and it has to do with unclean spirit and not anything to do with hygiene.
Concerning the pork is cursed, i'm not aware of that, and i do not see any proof of that too. And my point of my argument is the forbidden part regarding to pig is the meat only. Have you read the verses that i gave you? If you still say all of the pigs parts well i'm not gonna debate. Up to you, it's your belief.
Don't come out with this theory of being unhygienic or containing harmful bacteria.
I didn't say anything about unhygienic or containing harmful bacteria. Cuz most people have been eating pork but no problem with them. But i believe pig have an excessive fat. For me it's just a test whether you want to follow God's way or not, so i'm not into proving scientific evidence. And i'm not planning to eat any too
Pork is forbidden due to the curse thrown on to the swine by one of the prophets of Islam (prophet of the Jews) that consider it to be posessed by dirty spirit. Either you take it or leave it. Don't argue. This is not a matter of life and death that you want to argue.
Refer my first reply..
Muslims are permitted to consume pork when it is the last food available to survive. When I am dead hungry and need food to survive you may have the honour of serving me the pork chop or bacon strips if there are no other food available.
Yes i agree with that, but not up to level where it's the last food available to survive. If had to, just go with it. But don't enjoy it. God knows what you think. Simple.
Peace.
Islam forbids the eating of pork because Judaism said so and it has to do with unclean spirit and not anything to do with hygiene.
Concerning the pork is cursed, i'm not aware of that, and i do not see any proof of that too. And my point of my argument is the forbidden part regarding to pig is the meat only. Have you read the verses that i gave you? If you still say all of the pigs parts well i'm not gonna debate. Up to you, it's your belief.
Don't come out with this theory of being unhygienic or containing harmful bacteria.
I didn't say anything about unhygienic or containing harmful bacteria. Cuz most people have been eating pork but no problem with them. But i believe pig have an excessive fat. For me it's just a test whether you want to follow God's way or not, so i'm not into proving scientific evidence. And i'm not planning to eat any too
Pork is forbidden due to the curse thrown on to the swine by one of the prophets of Islam (prophet of the Jews) that consider it to be posessed by dirty spirit. Either you take it or leave it. Don't argue. This is not a matter of life and death that you want to argue.
Refer my first reply..
Muslims are permitted to consume pork when it is the last food available to survive. When I am dead hungry and need food to survive you may have the honour of serving me the pork chop or bacon strips if there are no other food available.
Yes i agree with that, but not up to level where it's the last food available to survive. If had to, just go with it. But don't enjoy it. God knows what you think. Simple.
Peace.
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written by Panca Indera, January 17, 2008 00:50:21
written by Panca Indera, January 17, 2008 00:50:21
Dear RH,
Ref:Islam forbids the eating of pork because Judaism said so and it has to do with unclean spirit and not anything to do with hygiene.
Allah did not forbid pork because of Judaism. Allah forbids the blood and flesh of swine from the time of Adam. Rational: Adam too, is Muslim and all people who submit to Allah from time Immemorial are Muslims.
What do you mean by Unclean spirit?
I’m not aware that animals have spirit/soul(only Human do)
Don't come out with this theory of being unhygienic or containing harmful bacteria.
It is not Theory it is a scientific fact,
Also mankind association of pigs are negative, i.e.
1.Don’t make a pig out of yourself!
2.You fat pig
3.you lazy pig
4.you dirty pig
5.German,†you English pig!â€Â
I’ve never heard somebody say;
1.You handsome pig
2.Clean as a pig
3.dedicated as a pig
4.as wise as a pig
Pork is forbidden due to the curse thrown on to the swine by one of the prophets of Islam (prophet of the Jews) that consider it to be posessed by dirty spirit. Either you take it or leave it. Don't argue.
You have to learn to allow other people to present their views(debates), no matter how much you dislike. This is part of Islam. Its your responsibility to inform the true Islamic beliefs,
Salam
Ref:Islam forbids the eating of pork because Judaism said so and it has to do with unclean spirit and not anything to do with hygiene.
Allah did not forbid pork because of Judaism. Allah forbids the blood and flesh of swine from the time of Adam. Rational: Adam too, is Muslim and all people who submit to Allah from time Immemorial are Muslims.
What do you mean by Unclean spirit?
I’m not aware that animals have spirit/soul(only Human do)
Don't come out with this theory of being unhygienic or containing harmful bacteria.
It is not Theory it is a scientific fact,
Also mankind association of pigs are negative, i.e.
1.Don’t make a pig out of yourself!
2.You fat pig
3.you lazy pig
4.you dirty pig
5.German,†you English pig!â€Â
I’ve never heard somebody say;
1.You handsome pig
2.Clean as a pig
3.dedicated as a pig
4.as wise as a pig
Pork is forbidden due to the curse thrown on to the swine by one of the prophets of Islam (prophet of the Jews) that consider it to be posessed by dirty spirit. Either you take it or leave it. Don't argue.
You have to learn to allow other people to present their views(debates), no matter how much you dislike. This is part of Islam. Its your responsibility to inform the true Islamic beliefs,
Salam
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written by Panca Indera, January 17, 2008 00:18:23
written by Panca Indera, January 17, 2008 00:18:23
Dear CatV5,
Ref: Do u know?
In Quran the only stated forbidden to eat is: (refer 6:145)
-dead meat
-blood
-flesh of swine/pig
-and others on which a name had been invoked other than Allah's.
In order to be more reliable and accurate in your debate or information, please give the full text and not edited or cut and paste as it can be misleading(unless its your own make-up).
For example do as per below:
5.3] Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal) and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols) and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
“the New medical studies have proved the amazing wonderful effects of the hearing of the name of God (Allah) on both the person who slaughters and the conscious live animal. It was found that it acts as a sedative on both and to purify the meat of the animal from any blood or bacteria. Scientific medical evidences have shown the humanity of the Islamic method of slaughter. Till now there is no single scientific medical evidence in the whole world that does prove that the Islamic method of animal slaughter (Arabic word: zhabihah) does cause any pain or suffering to the slaughtered animal.
On the other hand, slaughtering the animal with the use of stunning has been found to cause pain to the animal according to medical studies done in Germany that were based on the records of the electric recording of the brain of the sheep (EEG). Can any one show us any cruelty or barbarism in the Islamic method of slaughter?
However, we have to admit that there could be a few incidences when some ignorant uneducated Muslims, who try to do their animal slaughter without implementing all these important Islamic animal welfare regulations and without following the laws and the regulations of the countries they are in.
It is the duty of the imams and the Muslim media to educate this small minority of uneducated Muslims who give a bad name to Islam and Muslims. I think it is a good idea to offer a good tasty dinner to our non-Muslim neighbors and friends at the time of `Eid celebration. Hospitality is a part of Islam, as well as, to be kind caring and helpful to our non-Muslim friends and neighbors.
Islamic method of Slaughtering animals is better...scientific reason... http://www.themodernreligion.c...ughter.htm
note: can anybody disprove this scientific findings
But i trust Quran more, the word of God. Not just reports of Allah apostle to xxx reported to yyy and second by zzz and compiled by xyz in the book of abc.
Just because most information are inaccurate, do not discard/disbelieve or reject all Hadiths. Use your intellect and power of reasoning to analyst and understand using the Quran as reference.
Good luck.
Ref: Do u know?
In Quran the only stated forbidden to eat is: (refer 6:145)
-dead meat
-blood
-flesh of swine/pig
-and others on which a name had been invoked other than Allah's.
In order to be more reliable and accurate in your debate or information, please give the full text and not edited or cut and paste as it can be misleading(unless its your own make-up).
For example do as per below:
5.3] Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal) and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols) and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
“the New medical studies have proved the amazing wonderful effects of the hearing of the name of God (Allah) on both the person who slaughters and the conscious live animal. It was found that it acts as a sedative on both and to purify the meat of the animal from any blood or bacteria. Scientific medical evidences have shown the humanity of the Islamic method of slaughter. Till now there is no single scientific medical evidence in the whole world that does prove that the Islamic method of animal slaughter (Arabic word: zhabihah) does cause any pain or suffering to the slaughtered animal.
On the other hand, slaughtering the animal with the use of stunning has been found to cause pain to the animal according to medical studies done in Germany that were based on the records of the electric recording of the brain of the sheep (EEG). Can any one show us any cruelty or barbarism in the Islamic method of slaughter?
However, we have to admit that there could be a few incidences when some ignorant uneducated Muslims, who try to do their animal slaughter without implementing all these important Islamic animal welfare regulations and without following the laws and the regulations of the countries they are in.
It is the duty of the imams and the Muslim media to educate this small minority of uneducated Muslims who give a bad name to Islam and Muslims. I think it is a good idea to offer a good tasty dinner to our non-Muslim neighbors and friends at the time of `Eid celebration. Hospitality is a part of Islam, as well as, to be kind caring and helpful to our non-Muslim friends and neighbors.
Islamic method of Slaughtering animals is better...scientific reason... http://www.themodernreligion.c...ughter.htm
note: can anybody disprove this scientific findings
But i trust Quran more, the word of God. Not just reports of Allah apostle to xxx reported to yyy and second by zzz and compiled by xyz in the book of abc.
Just because most information are inaccurate, do not discard/disbelieve or reject all Hadiths. Use your intellect and power of reasoning to analyst and understand using the Quran as reference.
Good luck.
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 16, 2008 15:32:36
written by Rohani Hitam, January 16, 2008 15:32:36
Islam forbids the eating of pork because Judaism said so and it has to do with unclean spirit and not anything to do with hygiene.
Don't come out with this theory of being unhygienic or containing harmful bacteria.
And also don't try to interprete which section of the pig and which part of the pork that are considered haram or edible.
Pork is forbidden due to the curse thrown on to the swine by one of the prophets of Islam (prophet of the Jews) that consider it to be posessed by dirty spirit. Either you take it or leave it. Don't argue. This is not a matter of life and death that you want to argue.
Muslims are permitted to consume pork when it is the last food available to survive. When I am dead hungry and need food to survive you may have the honour of serving me the pork chop or bacon strips if there are no other food available.
Don't come out with this theory of being unhygienic or containing harmful bacteria.
And also don't try to interprete which section of the pig and which part of the pork that are considered haram or edible.
Pork is forbidden due to the curse thrown on to the swine by one of the prophets of Islam (prophet of the Jews) that consider it to be posessed by dirty spirit. Either you take it or leave it. Don't argue. This is not a matter of life and death that you want to argue.
Muslims are permitted to consume pork when it is the last food available to survive. When I am dead hungry and need food to survive you may have the honour of serving me the pork chop or bacon strips if there are no other food available.
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written by CatV5, January 16, 2008 10:46:04
written by CatV5, January 16, 2008 10:46:04
Do u know?
In Quran the only stated forbidden to eat is: (refer 6:145)
-dead meat
-blood
-flesh of swine/pig
-and others on which a name had been invoked other than Allah's.
Now if we can see the forbidden is flesh of swine. Let me repeat. FLESH. And if god want to say fat, pig soup, pig skin, pig bladder or the pig itself, it is specifically specified. Quran proof it as per the next verse 6:146, it specifically says food that has been forbidden to any who follows Jewish law which i could say very specific:
- every animal with divided hoof
- fat of the ox and the sheep except what adheres to their backs or their entrails or mixed with bones.
And muslim nowadays are exaggerating to forbid muslims to eat up to any chemicals that comes from swine(e40,e41, HN51, bla bla), the fat and the swine itself. (and dog too!)
And not to forget, the Quran doesn't even mention to slaughter the animal too. But there is a sembelih word at the tafsir. But not in English, it just translated as invoke. If my vocabulary is correct, sembelih means slaughter.
check it out yourself : http://quran.al-islam.com/Targ...6&nAya=145
Okay they would say hadith says to forbid to anything related to swine... can't deny that. But i trust Quran more, the word of God. Not just reports of Allah apostle to xxx reported to yyy and second by zzz and compiled by xyz in the book of abc.
No offense, Just a reminder
Peace
In Quran the only stated forbidden to eat is: (refer 6:145)
-dead meat
-blood
-flesh of swine/pig
-and others on which a name had been invoked other than Allah's.
Now if we can see the forbidden is flesh of swine. Let me repeat. FLESH. And if god want to say fat, pig soup, pig skin, pig bladder or the pig itself, it is specifically specified. Quran proof it as per the next verse 6:146, it specifically says food that has been forbidden to any who follows Jewish law which i could say very specific:
- every animal with divided hoof
- fat of the ox and the sheep except what adheres to their backs or their entrails or mixed with bones.
And muslim nowadays are exaggerating to forbid muslims to eat up to any chemicals that comes from swine(e40,e41, HN51, bla bla), the fat and the swine itself. (and dog too!)
And not to forget, the Quran doesn't even mention to slaughter the animal too. But there is a sembelih word at the tafsir. But not in English, it just translated as invoke. If my vocabulary is correct, sembelih means slaughter.
check it out yourself : http://quran.al-islam.com/Targ...6&nAya=145
Okay they would say hadith says to forbid to anything related to swine... can't deny that. But i trust Quran more, the word of God. Not just reports of Allah apostle to xxx reported to yyy and second by zzz and compiled by xyz in the book of abc.
No offense, Just a reminder
Peace
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written by C360, January 16, 2008 10:15:40
written by C360, January 16, 2008 10:15:40
written by Panca Indera, January 15, 2008 | 08:34:38
I can also said a Christian claimed that he choose Christianity because he wanted to eat pork and drink wine and party all the time without feeling guilty .
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The issue of pork originates from the Hebrews and fundamentally a culinary issue of preparing pork for consumption. Due to a disease which was carried in the meat and the fact that at the time niether refridgeration was around and salting could not deal with the issue at hand, it became a prohibition for physical health (disease control) reasons.
On the same basis, I am a little perplexed as to why chickens have not been declared "haram" yet due to HN51 ..
How that has translated to "haram" justified by being adulterated, corrupted, "possessed" of the human "spirit" and mind .. I simply do not know .. but my gut instinct is telling me that someone scr*wed up somewhere sometime ..
I am further lost as to how pork has been associated to CHINESE vis-a-vis "racism", when the world's largest pork consumer is an european nation, and probably europe as a whole ..
I do not know of any "halal" way of slaughtering a pig .. but recent media statements would suggest that is alright to draw the kris and parangs, go down to the street, to defend Malay rights (supposedly) and kill other human beings ..
And we have some online guests who say that Malaysia Today is doing Islam-bashing .. ??
Oh I get it .. external elements are attacking Islam .. rite .. modern technologies and culinary preparations eliminating disease spread for pork is not acceptable, but for chickens it is all right ..
I can also said a Christian claimed that he choose Christianity because he wanted to eat pork and drink wine and party all the time without feeling guilty .
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The issue of pork originates from the Hebrews and fundamentally a culinary issue of preparing pork for consumption. Due to a disease which was carried in the meat and the fact that at the time niether refridgeration was around and salting could not deal with the issue at hand, it became a prohibition for physical health (disease control) reasons.
On the same basis, I am a little perplexed as to why chickens have not been declared "haram" yet due to HN51 ..
How that has translated to "haram" justified by being adulterated, corrupted, "possessed" of the human "spirit" and mind .. I simply do not know .. but my gut instinct is telling me that someone scr*wed up somewhere sometime ..
I am further lost as to how pork has been associated to CHINESE vis-a-vis "racism", when the world's largest pork consumer is an european nation, and probably europe as a whole ..
I do not know of any "halal" way of slaughtering a pig .. but recent media statements would suggest that is alright to draw the kris and parangs, go down to the street, to defend Malay rights (supposedly) and kill other human beings ..
And we have some online guests who say that Malaysia Today is doing Islam-bashing .. ??
Oh I get it .. external elements are attacking Islam .. rite .. modern technologies and culinary preparations eliminating disease spread for pork is not acceptable, but for chickens it is all right ..
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written by CatV5, January 16, 2008 02:02:29
written by CatV5, January 16, 2008 02:02:29
I agree with compadre45, we must learn to listen to the voice within yourself. Learn to differentiate within the voice, which is good and which is bad. One will realize the truth.
Peace is the top priority!
Quote Compadre45
PEACE !!! PEACE !!!! PEACE !!!......PLEASE !!!
Peace is the top priority!
Quote Compadre45
PEACE !!! PEACE !!!! PEACE !!!......PLEASE !!!
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written by Compadre45, January 15, 2008 23:17:56
written by Compadre45, January 15, 2008 23:17:56
Boy O boy !!! I feel much peaceful not knowing much about religion.
All i desire is " Peace " with all my fellow human race.
Behold my friends, lets set our religious differences aside so God can be in Peace and so can we.
Lets us all believe in one God and not divide him apart with religion.
Is the same colour blood and flesh that all of us have even if skin,hair and eyes and religion are different in colour.
Like it says : " What ever disunites man from God, also disunites man from man "
We are all in this together, by ourselves
We did'nt know when we were going to be born
We wont know when we are going to die
But all of us know that its God who decides
All religion belongs to one God and God belongs to all religion.
The reason why the world lacks unity, and lies broken and in heaps, is, because man is disunited with himself.
Do not follow the ideas of others, but learn to listen to the voice within yourself. Your body and mind will become clear and you will realize the unity of all things.
Lets build for our land a feeling of oneness, of dependence on one another and of strength to be derived by unity.
As in the title : All that is Haram ....is us who make it Haram.
PEACE !!! PEACE !!!! PEACE !!!......PLEASE !!!
All i desire is " Peace " with all my fellow human race.
Behold my friends, lets set our religious differences aside so God can be in Peace and so can we.
Lets us all believe in one God and not divide him apart with religion.
Is the same colour blood and flesh that all of us have even if skin,hair and eyes and religion are different in colour.
Like it says : " What ever disunites man from God, also disunites man from man "
We are all in this together, by ourselves
We did'nt know when we were going to be born
We wont know when we are going to die
But all of us know that its God who decides
All religion belongs to one God and God belongs to all religion.
The reason why the world lacks unity, and lies broken and in heaps, is, because man is disunited with himself.
Do not follow the ideas of others, but learn to listen to the voice within yourself. Your body and mind will become clear and you will realize the unity of all things.
Lets build for our land a feeling of oneness, of dependence on one another and of strength to be derived by unity.
As in the title : All that is Haram ....is us who make it Haram.
PEACE !!! PEACE !!!! PEACE !!!......PLEASE !!!
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written by Admiral Tojo, January 15, 2008 08:11:32
written by Admiral Tojo, January 15, 2008 08:11:32
RPK writes another zinger, true and spot on. If you declare what is kosher as haram, you will reap the fair recompense for your action. As what is happening globally now, the deliberate lies that the disbelieving Arabs have incorporated in the Quran has come to haunt them and their arab wannabe cohorts (UMNO Malays included). No matter how they try to justify their evil actions (such as suicide bombings, sectarianism, declaring perhimpunan as HARAM etc), the lies they had falsely attribute to the Quran (a book they idolise and never read) keeps being rubbed in their wicked faces. Mark my words, they will reap their fair rewards for doing this, and it will be hell on earth for them, out of their own doing. I will be at a HALAL perhimpunan today, at Backyard Pub, no permit required. Care to join me?
Shalom
Shalom
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written by libau, January 15, 2008 05:28:29
written by libau, January 15, 2008 05:28:29
What we can do is learn how to live in this multi culture and religion country in peace and harmony.
May we all will blessed by "ALLAH"
May we all will blessed by "ALLAH"
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written by Panca Indera, January 15, 2008 00:34:38
written by Panca Indera, January 15, 2008 00:34:38
Dear Avanza1
I have a personal copy of the Bible (Kings James version printed in 1910 and given to me by an Irish Lady) where the word Paraclete is mentioned twice. You don’t get that in the latest copy of the bible.
Which copy do you have?
Is steam water, or ice or water can be accepted only in its normal form? Are not steam(water vapor) and ice formed naturally? Can the Almighty be limited to the heavens only and devil rule the land and sea? Sounds very BN too, isn't it?
Second question first,
Where did you get the idea that the Almighty is limited to the Heavens only, is it in the Quran or is it mentioned by some one?
First Question:Yes H2O (water) is the combination of the elements Hydrogen(H2) and Oxygen (02). While both elements are combustible(will burn fiercely ) in its independent states, as water, they will douse most fires and is an essential part of all live forms on this planet.(you and me are 90% H2O)
Ice, water and Vapour are three physical state of H20 that formed due to external forces(in this case temperature). The Three leaf clover also has been used to explain the Trinity as the Maple leaf. Then there is Carbon(Diamond, Graphite and amorphous Carbon) then the are tens if not Hundreds other forms of elements, compound life that changed into different states yet is the same. Most insects (lavae, pupae, imago)
(What I’m trying to say is that H20 is not special in changing its state.)
Dear Avanza! Can you can you explain the external factors that caused God to become Jesus using your argument of water, ice and vapour?
If God took in Human form as Jesus, He must have He recreated himself right?
The Arch-Angle came and visited Mary and said she was going to have a son. Before that Mary was not pregnant. So something was created in Her womb right?
Hence the logic God must have created Himself Right?
If you said, we are all defective since Adam, then, God Jesus is also defective as he was born a man-child from Mary(using the same logic). So according to logic God is defective and not perfect, is that right?
For the Majority of Christians(Catholics and Orthodox) their Popes are also defective?
Jesus PBUH was carried for 9 months in the womb of Mary, and totally dependent on the nourishment from his mother, without which, he could have died. So logically God is totally dependent on human during his formative years, Right?
In fact a muslim claims all the red letters are Jesus's teachings but the red letters reads ' know that the Father and I are one'.
That is a sweeping statement without proof or evidence. I can also said a Christian claimed that he choose Christianity because he wanted to eat pork and drink wine and party all the time without feeling guilty .
Anyway, Happy Hunting, I wish and hope you are as contented with your beliefs as I am with mine.
WE COME FROM GOD AND WE WILL RETURN TO HIM, SUBMITTING WILLING OR UNWILLINGLY. HIS WILL SHALL BE DONE.
I have a personal copy of the Bible (Kings James version printed in 1910 and given to me by an Irish Lady) where the word Paraclete is mentioned twice. You don’t get that in the latest copy of the bible.
Which copy do you have?
Is steam water, or ice or water can be accepted only in its normal form? Are not steam(water vapor) and ice formed naturally? Can the Almighty be limited to the heavens only and devil rule the land and sea? Sounds very BN too, isn't it?
Second question first,
Where did you get the idea that the Almighty is limited to the Heavens only, is it in the Quran or is it mentioned by some one?
First Question:Yes H2O (water) is the combination of the elements Hydrogen(H2) and Oxygen (02). While both elements are combustible(will burn fiercely ) in its independent states, as water, they will douse most fires and is an essential part of all live forms on this planet.(you and me are 90% H2O)
Ice, water and Vapour are three physical state of H20 that formed due to external forces(in this case temperature). The Three leaf clover also has been used to explain the Trinity as the Maple leaf. Then there is Carbon(Diamond, Graphite and amorphous Carbon) then the are tens if not Hundreds other forms of elements, compound life that changed into different states yet is the same. Most insects (lavae, pupae, imago)
(What I’m trying to say is that H20 is not special in changing its state.)
Dear Avanza! Can you can you explain the external factors that caused God to become Jesus using your argument of water, ice and vapour?
If God took in Human form as Jesus, He must have He recreated himself right?
The Arch-Angle came and visited Mary and said she was going to have a son. Before that Mary was not pregnant. So something was created in Her womb right?
Hence the logic God must have created Himself Right?
If you said, we are all defective since Adam, then, God Jesus is also defective as he was born a man-child from Mary(using the same logic). So according to logic God is defective and not perfect, is that right?
For the Majority of Christians(Catholics and Orthodox) their Popes are also defective?
Jesus PBUH was carried for 9 months in the womb of Mary, and totally dependent on the nourishment from his mother, without which, he could have died. So logically God is totally dependent on human during his formative years, Right?
In fact a muslim claims all the red letters are Jesus's teachings but the red letters reads ' know that the Father and I are one'.
That is a sweeping statement without proof or evidence. I can also said a Christian claimed that he choose Christianity because he wanted to eat pork and drink wine and party all the time without feeling guilty .
Anyway, Happy Hunting, I wish and hope you are as contented with your beliefs as I am with mine.
WE COME FROM GOD AND WE WILL RETURN TO HIM, SUBMITTING WILLING OR UNWILLINGLY. HIS WILL SHALL BE DONE.
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 14, 2008 23:57:03
written by Rohani Hitam, January 14, 2008 23:57:03
Avanza1 wrote:
It is important and appropriate to know what you celebrate. What is the celebration for the recent holiday. Was it a birthday, independance or a lunar new year?
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I was merely answering your question of what are the Greek mythology influence? I answered you and you went on to say that the date is insignificant as long as you know what you are celebrating. That makes me a fool answering you the question.
To get back on track, I ask you now whether you know that the date of Christ birth was selected as 25th December to commemorate the birthday of the Greek sun God?
It is important and appropriate to know what you celebrate. What is the celebration for the recent holiday. Was it a birthday, independance or a lunar new year?
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I was merely answering your question of what are the Greek mythology influence? I answered you and you went on to say that the date is insignificant as long as you know what you are celebrating. That makes me a fool answering you the question.
To get back on track, I ask you now whether you know that the date of Christ birth was selected as 25th December to commemorate the birthday of the Greek sun God?
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written by Avanza1, January 14, 2008 21:59:18
written by Avanza1, January 14, 2008 21:59:18
>>written by Panca Indera, January 14, 2008 | 15:03:51
Israel(including Pharisees and Sadducees) at the time of Isa Al-Masih were waiting for a Messiah to delivery them from non Israelite Kingdom. Not from the Pharisees and Sadducees. That is their mentallity of that period. They were not think spirituality.
Miracles without bring man closer to God is missing the point. The birth of Jesus is not about which is a greater miracle. The Pharisees and Saducees are always looking for signs and miracles. The birth is about promise of God to Man.
Quran do not have much of Jesus teachings. In fact a muslim claims all the red letters are Jesus's teachings but the red letters reads ' know that the Father and I are one'. To find out more of Is Al-Masih please get a bible or from the net.
We all defects since Adam. That is why God is working on us. Being a loving God I has to reach out to us and being defects we can't hear Him speaking to us. That is why he has to come down to fulfill his promises to us. To find out more His promises please get a bible or from the net.
Is steam water, or ice or water can be accepted only in its normal form? Are not steam(water vapor) and ice formed naturally? Can the Almighty be limited to the heavens only and devil rule the land and sea? Sounds very BN too, isn't it?
>>written by Rohani Hitam, January 14, 2008 | 23:13:40
1. The birth date of Christ and the celebration of Christmas was fixed on
25th December in conjunction with the birthday of the Sun God.
2. The cross was selected as the insignia for Christianity in tandum with
the sign of the Greek God of Fire.
**There is no record on birth day of Jesus. Christians celebrate his birth
on Dec 25 by tradition. It a day to remember his birth, a msg of hope and
promise. I told my Muslim friend who wished me a belated 'Merry Christmas'.
Thanking him, I told him everyday is a Christmas if you have Jesus in your
heart. If your have received Jesus Christ, the hope and promise from God is
with you. It is important and appropriate to know what you celebrate. What is the celebration for the recent holiday. Was it a birthday, independance or a lunar new year?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus
Hephæstos (pronounced /hɪˈfiËÂstÉ™s/ or /hɪˈfεstÉ™s/; Greek á¼ÂÆαιÃÆ’Ãâ?
??žÃŽÂ¿Ã‚ HÄ“phaistos)
was the Greek god whose Roman equivalent was Vulcan; he was the god of
technology, blacksmiths, craftsmen, artisans, sculptors, metals and
metallurgy, and fire
Hephaestus's symbols are a smith's hammer, an anvil and a pair of tongs.
Sometimes he holds an axe.
Please read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_and_crescent
Israel(including Pharisees and Sadducees) at the time of Isa Al-Masih were waiting for a Messiah to delivery them from non Israelite Kingdom. Not from the Pharisees and Sadducees. That is their mentallity of that period. They were not think spirituality.
Miracles without bring man closer to God is missing the point. The birth of Jesus is not about which is a greater miracle. The Pharisees and Saducees are always looking for signs and miracles. The birth is about promise of God to Man.
Quran do not have much of Jesus teachings. In fact a muslim claims all the red letters are Jesus's teachings but the red letters reads ' know that the Father and I are one'. To find out more of Is Al-Masih please get a bible or from the net.
We all defects since Adam. That is why God is working on us. Being a loving God I has to reach out to us and being defects we can't hear Him speaking to us. That is why he has to come down to fulfill his promises to us. To find out more His promises please get a bible or from the net.
Is steam water, or ice or water can be accepted only in its normal form? Are not steam(water vapor) and ice formed naturally? Can the Almighty be limited to the heavens only and devil rule the land and sea? Sounds very BN too, isn't it?
>>written by Rohani Hitam, January 14, 2008 | 23:13:40
1. The birth date of Christ and the celebration of Christmas was fixed on
25th December in conjunction with the birthday of the Sun God.
2. The cross was selected as the insignia for Christianity in tandum with
the sign of the Greek God of Fire.
**There is no record on birth day of Jesus. Christians celebrate his birth
on Dec 25 by tradition. It a day to remember his birth, a msg of hope and
promise. I told my Muslim friend who wished me a belated 'Merry Christmas'.
Thanking him, I told him everyday is a Christmas if you have Jesus in your
heart. If your have received Jesus Christ, the hope and promise from God is
with you. It is important and appropriate to know what you celebrate. What is the celebration for the recent holiday. Was it a birthday, independance or a lunar new year?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus
Hephæstos (pronounced /hɪˈfiËÂstÉ™s/ or /hɪˈfεstÉ™s/; Greek á¼ÂÆαιÃÆ’Ãâ?
??žÃŽÂ¿Ã‚ HÄ“phaistos)
was the Greek god whose Roman equivalent was Vulcan; he was the god of
technology, blacksmiths, craftsmen, artisans, sculptors, metals and
metallurgy, and fire
Hephaestus's symbols are a smith's hammer, an anvil and a pair of tongs.
Sometimes he holds an axe.
Please read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_and_crescent
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 14, 2008 15:13:40
written by Rohani Hitam, January 14, 2008 15:13:40
Thanks Panca Indera for answering Avanza1 on my behalf. Actually I was tired of answering the same question over again and again.
Avanza, I am not against Christianity. It is another religion where there are sizeable followers. I shall accord the same respect that my Christians friends accorded to me. You asked what Muslims consider Jesus as and I answered you honestly. You went further to argue on the points I made and I just refused to dwell into something you can find among the Christian critics themselves.
The Greek/Roman influence on Christianity did not stop at Paul. It went on until a Council was formed by Emperor Constantine in 325 AD to settle the arguement over the unity of God.
Some example on how Greek mythology had influenced the teaching of Christianity:
1. The birth date of Christ and the celebration of Christmas was fixed on 25th December in conjunction with the birthday of the Sun God.
2. The cross was selected as the insignia for Christianity in tandum with the sign of the Greek God of Fire.
Avanza, I am not against Christianity. It is another religion where there are sizeable followers. I shall accord the same respect that my Christians friends accorded to me. You asked what Muslims consider Jesus as and I answered you honestly. You went further to argue on the points I made and I just refused to dwell into something you can find among the Christian critics themselves.
The Greek/Roman influence on Christianity did not stop at Paul. It went on until a Council was formed by Emperor Constantine in 325 AD to settle the arguement over the unity of God.
Some example on how Greek mythology had influenced the teaching of Christianity:
1. The birth date of Christ and the celebration of Christmas was fixed on 25th December in conjunction with the birthday of the Sun God.
2. The cross was selected as the insignia for Christianity in tandum with the sign of the Greek God of Fire.
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written by EYFF, January 14, 2008 10:44:22
written by EYFF, January 14, 2008 10:44:22
In its effort to politicize Allah and other Arabic words to keep its Malay populace political loyalty captive, the Malaysian Govt may find itself further at odd with the OIC and the Arab League.
Within the OIC, the Malaysian Govt had always been perceived to be “progressive†to the point of being deviant as can be seen in their interpretation of:-
1.Their Islamic Banking System, where profits are actually interest, but redefined by normally partnering a borrower and a lender and writing down the interest directly as profit! In Malaysia where the interest rate is regulated it is therefore a way to bypass the regulation and charge the borrower a higher interested than that set by the Central Bank!
2.Stating that Malaysia is an Islamic State while Arabic is not its an official/national language!
3.Friday public prays, where imams would direct prays for the health and good fortune of some VIPs, party, etc. which is forbidden in Islam.
4.Islam Hahdari
(Surah 47:4 says: Fa'idhÄ LaqÄ«tumu Al-LadhÄ«na KafarÅ« FaÄ‘arba Ar-RiqÄÂbi Ĥattaá 'IdhÄ 'AthkhantumÅ«hum FashuddÅ« Al-WathÄÂqa Fa'immÄ MannÄÂan Ba`du Wa 'ImmÄ FidÄÂ'an Ĥattaá TaÄ‘a`a Al-Ĥarbu 'AwzÄÂrahÄ DhÄÂlika Wa Law YashÄÂ'u AllÄÂhu LÄÂntaÅŸara Minhum Wa Lakin Liyabluwa Ba`Ä‘akum Biba`Ä‘in Wa Al-LadhÄ«na QutilÅ« FÄ« SabÄ«li AllÄÂhi Falan YuÄ‘illa 'A`mÄÂlahum
5.Now redefining Allah in direct contradiction to the Koran and the Prophet.
(Surah 29:46 Muslims are told by Allah, not to question the authority of the scriptures of the Christians, saying, "And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; OUR ALLAH AND YOUR ALLAH IS ONE !
If Malaysia persists in going down its present path it may see its membership in the OIC downgraded to that of a deviant Islamic country and may see its pilgrimage’s quota limited drastically by the Saudis!
Malaysia you are not alone! Malaysia you are not the centre of the Islamic Universe!
So step softly please Malaysia under UMNO administration!
Within the OIC, the Malaysian Govt had always been perceived to be “progressive†to the point of being deviant as can be seen in their interpretation of:-
1.Their Islamic Banking System, where profits are actually interest, but redefined by normally partnering a borrower and a lender and writing down the interest directly as profit! In Malaysia where the interest rate is regulated it is therefore a way to bypass the regulation and charge the borrower a higher interested than that set by the Central Bank!
2.Stating that Malaysia is an Islamic State while Arabic is not its an official/national language!
3.Friday public prays, where imams would direct prays for the health and good fortune of some VIPs, party, etc. which is forbidden in Islam.
4.Islam Hahdari
(Surah 47:4 says: Fa'idhÄ LaqÄ«tumu Al-LadhÄ«na KafarÅ« FaÄ‘arba Ar-RiqÄÂbi Ĥattaá 'IdhÄ 'AthkhantumÅ«hum FashuddÅ« Al-WathÄÂqa Fa'immÄ MannÄÂan Ba`du Wa 'ImmÄ FidÄÂ'an Ĥattaá TaÄ‘a`a Al-Ĥarbu 'AwzÄÂrahÄ DhÄÂlika Wa Law YashÄÂ'u AllÄÂhu LÄÂntaÅŸara Minhum Wa Lakin Liyabluwa Ba`Ä‘akum Biba`Ä‘in Wa Al-LadhÄ«na QutilÅ« FÄ« SabÄ«li AllÄÂhi Falan YuÄ‘illa 'A`mÄÂlahum
5.Now redefining Allah in direct contradiction to the Koran and the Prophet.
(Surah 29:46 Muslims are told by Allah, not to question the authority of the scriptures of the Christians, saying, "And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; OUR ALLAH AND YOUR ALLAH IS ONE !
If Malaysia persists in going down its present path it may see its membership in the OIC downgraded to that of a deviant Islamic country and may see its pilgrimage’s quota limited drastically by the Saudis!
Malaysia you are not alone! Malaysia you are not the centre of the Islamic Universe!
So step softly please Malaysia under UMNO administration!
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written by Panca Indera, January 14, 2008 07:03:51
written by Panca Indera, January 14, 2008 07:03:51
Salam(Peace) Brother!
Dear Avanza1
** Do you know the teachings of Al-Masih? Are they recorded in Quran?
Al Masih is an Arabic for (the Anointed) or roughly translated Messiah or Savior in English. Isa (Jesus)PBUH was given the title by His followers( the good and practicing Jews of that time) believed he was the one promised to deliver them from the clutches of the Pharisees and Sadducees who were causing confusion, division and corruption among the Children of Israel.
Yes, the Quran records many stories about Isa(Jesus) Peace and Blessing Upon Him. PBUH. Please get a copy of the Quran in English and read or search the web. Basically The Quran tells the readers that Isa was a man, a Prophet sent to teach and educate his people(the children of Israel). About his miracle birth of without a father, the Quran says whats the big deal about one guy created with a mother only(Mary PBUH) when Adam PBUH was born without father or mother(more complicated).
In the Quran, God is also displeased with people who equate Jesus with Him or being His Son or being Him. He said these people are misguided or mislead by irresponsible people.(Sounds like the BN people).
Frankly majority of Christians would not like to delve into the subject of Holy Trinity as it can be very confusing and distressful. So they leave to “faithâ€Â
It is not my intention to belittle or slight a good Christian. In fact I have come across very many good Christians who would put many of the “educated†Muslims to Shame in their practices.
Please tell me more on the integrated Greek Mythology.
If I may, â€ÂAt the time when Isa PBUH Teaching was around, the civilized world in that part was the Roman Empire centered at Rome, Italy. The Roman learned the beliefs and religions from the Greeks, their next door neighbor(who were civilized earler). That’s how they pick-up the Greek Mythology bit in the religion. Again if you are interested in the details look-up the net
Suffice to say , the Apostle Paul was the one who incorporated the concept of God the Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost(Trinity) into Christianity to win over the Power that be in Rome as it was similar to their Beliefs i.e. the God Zeus, son of Cronus and Rhea, and of the Pantheon of gods etc.etc.â€Â
Isa Al-Masih's said; 'know the truth and the truth will set you free'
Yes! You have to keep searching for God’s truth(absolute truth) not relative Truth that are abound everywhere.
He also said, 'know that the Father and I are one'
This is touchy, but I try
Ask yourself, in Arithmetic, One and One is Two, right?
So for the statement,†Father and I are one' mathematically does not make sense, Right?
If we take the spiritual meaning,†Father and I are one' it would means that God and Jesus are of the same mould or make or belong to the same group. Therefore, God has a partner or brother or twin and the concept of a Universal Allah who owns everything is lost. Allah now has to share with Jesus PBUH in running the Kingdom.
If we look at it the other way where God split a part of Him(spirit) to become Jesus PBUH to be sent to save mankind and let Him be crucified on the cross to died a painful death, to pay for the sin of man . (God! why has thou Forsaken Me,)Jesus being the Son of God now questioned his Father wisdom and Justice for sacrificing His only Son for the folly of mankind even after doing all of God’s work tirelessly and without questions.Maybe you just have to have have Faith. But that is dogmatic belief ie.belief system that cannot be rationally explained, and Dogmatic beliefs are dangerous as it is mostly irrational.example the statement of belief that all blacks are bad.
Well I hope You will find the answers you are looking for
MaaSalam
Note: I am only Human and is not defect free
Dear Avanza1
** Do you know the teachings of Al-Masih? Are they recorded in Quran?
Al Masih is an Arabic for (the Anointed) or roughly translated Messiah or Savior in English. Isa (Jesus)PBUH was given the title by His followers( the good and practicing Jews of that time) believed he was the one promised to deliver them from the clutches of the Pharisees and Sadducees who were causing confusion, division and corruption among the Children of Israel.
Yes, the Quran records many stories about Isa(Jesus) Peace and Blessing Upon Him. PBUH. Please get a copy of the Quran in English and read or search the web. Basically The Quran tells the readers that Isa was a man, a Prophet sent to teach and educate his people(the children of Israel). About his miracle birth of without a father, the Quran says whats the big deal about one guy created with a mother only(Mary PBUH) when Adam PBUH was born without father or mother(more complicated).
In the Quran, God is also displeased with people who equate Jesus with Him or being His Son or being Him. He said these people are misguided or mislead by irresponsible people.(Sounds like the BN people).
Frankly majority of Christians would not like to delve into the subject of Holy Trinity as it can be very confusing and distressful. So they leave to “faithâ€Â
It is not my intention to belittle or slight a good Christian. In fact I have come across very many good Christians who would put many of the “educated†Muslims to Shame in their practices.
Please tell me more on the integrated Greek Mythology.
If I may, â€ÂAt the time when Isa PBUH Teaching was around, the civilized world in that part was the Roman Empire centered at Rome, Italy. The Roman learned the beliefs and religions from the Greeks, their next door neighbor(who were civilized earler). That’s how they pick-up the Greek Mythology bit in the religion. Again if you are interested in the details look-up the net
Suffice to say , the Apostle Paul was the one who incorporated the concept of God the Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost(Trinity) into Christianity to win over the Power that be in Rome as it was similar to their Beliefs i.e. the God Zeus, son of Cronus and Rhea, and of the Pantheon of gods etc.etc.â€Â
Isa Al-Masih's said; 'know the truth and the truth will set you free'
Yes! You have to keep searching for God’s truth(absolute truth) not relative Truth that are abound everywhere.
He also said, 'know that the Father and I are one'
This is touchy, but I try
Ask yourself, in Arithmetic, One and One is Two, right?
So for the statement,†Father and I are one' mathematically does not make sense, Right?
If we take the spiritual meaning,†Father and I are one' it would means that God and Jesus are of the same mould or make or belong to the same group. Therefore, God has a partner or brother or twin and the concept of a Universal Allah who owns everything is lost. Allah now has to share with Jesus PBUH in running the Kingdom.
If we look at it the other way where God split a part of Him(spirit) to become Jesus PBUH to be sent to save mankind and let Him be crucified on the cross to died a painful death, to pay for the sin of man . (God! why has thou Forsaken Me,)Jesus being the Son of God now questioned his Father wisdom and Justice for sacrificing His only Son for the folly of mankind even after doing all of God’s work tirelessly and without questions.Maybe you just have to have have Faith. But that is dogmatic belief ie.belief system that cannot be rationally explained, and Dogmatic beliefs are dangerous as it is mostly irrational.example the statement of belief that all blacks are bad.
Well I hope You will find the answers you are looking for
MaaSalam
Note: I am only Human and is not defect free
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written by Avanza1, January 13, 2008 17:08:24
written by Avanza1, January 13, 2008 17:08:24
...
written by Avanza1, January 10, 2008 | 01:17:53
written by Avanza1, January 09, 2008 | 00:29:28
>>written by Rohani Hitam, January 08, 2008 | 01:17:01
Yes you are right. The Muslims learned that Jesus is one of the prophets.
** Do you know the teachings of Al-Masih? Are they recorded in Quran? Please tell me more on the integrated Greek Mythology.
Isa Al-Masih's said; 'know the truth and the truth will set you free'
He also said, 'know that the Father and I are one'
written by Avanza1, January 10, 2008 | 01:17:53
written by Avanza1, January 09, 2008 | 00:29:28
>>written by Rohani Hitam, January 08, 2008 | 01:17:01
Yes you are right. The Muslims learned that Jesus is one of the prophets.
** Do you know the teachings of Al-Masih? Are they recorded in Quran? Please tell me more on the integrated Greek Mythology.
Isa Al-Masih's said; 'know the truth and the truth will set you free'
He also said, 'know that the Father and I are one'
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written by dreadloxking, January 13, 2008 07:11:59
written by dreadloxking, January 13, 2008 07:11:59
I don't get it. Why shud we fight each other? Why don't we wait until Jesus descends from the sky (or whatever it is for the Christians...) and Mahdi re-appears in the public? Then the whole world will know what is right and what is wrong. The Musyrikin nowadays that we shud fight are The Zionist and U.S.A. (the governance). They caused the all kinds of trouble in the whole world! (e.g : Occupation on Palestine & Iraq). Why don't from now on we unite (the Christians & Muslims) and wait for these 2 VERY VERY IMPORTANT LEADERS to fight the evil axis?!
Allah's Apostle said "Three persons will have a double reward:
1. A Person from the people of the scriptures who believed in his prophet (Jesus or Moses) and then believed in the Prophet Muhammad (i .e. has embraced Islam).
2. A slave who discharges his duties to Allah and his master.
3. A master of a woman-slave who teaches her good manners and educates her in the best possible way (the religion) and manumits her and then marries her." >>From Sahih Imam Bukhari.
Abu Nadra reported: "We were in the company of Jabir b.'Abdullah that he said it may happen that the people of Iraq may not send their qafiz and dirhams (their measures of food stuff and their money).We said : Who would be respolisible for it? He said : The non-Arabs would prevent them. He again said : There is the possibility that the people of Syria may not send their dinar and mudd. We said : Who would be responsible for it? He said this prevention would be made by the Romans. He (Jabir b. Abdullah) kept quiet for a while and then reported Allah's Messenger (PBUH) having said : There would be a caliph in the last (period) of my Ummah who would freely give handfuls of wealth to the people without counting it. I said to Abu Nadra and Abu al-'Ala: Do you mean 'Umar b.'Abd al-Aziz? They said : No(he would be IMAM MAHDI)." >>From Sahih Imam Muslim
Unite & Fight!
Allah's Apostle said "Three persons will have a double reward:
1. A Person from the people of the scriptures who believed in his prophet (Jesus or Moses) and then believed in the Prophet Muhammad (i .e. has embraced Islam).
2. A slave who discharges his duties to Allah and his master.
3. A master of a woman-slave who teaches her good manners and educates her in the best possible way (the religion) and manumits her and then marries her." >>From Sahih Imam Bukhari.
Abu Nadra reported: "We were in the company of Jabir b.'Abdullah that he said it may happen that the people of Iraq may not send their qafiz and dirhams (their measures of food stuff and their money).We said : Who would be respolisible for it? He said : The non-Arabs would prevent them. He again said : There is the possibility that the people of Syria may not send their dinar and mudd. We said : Who would be responsible for it? He said this prevention would be made by the Romans. He (Jabir b. Abdullah) kept quiet for a while and then reported Allah's Messenger (PBUH) having said : There would be a caliph in the last (period) of my Ummah who would freely give handfuls of wealth to the people without counting it. I said to Abu Nadra and Abu al-'Ala: Do you mean 'Umar b.'Abd al-Aziz? They said : No(he would be IMAM MAHDI)." >>From Sahih Imam Muslim
Unite & Fight!
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written by lokenpal, January 12, 2008 20:56:39
written by lokenpal, January 12, 2008 20:56:39
LChuah
Progressive Malaysians, I think, first requires a separation of the following
>Melayu from Islam
>India from Hindu/etc.
>China from Buddist/etc
Progressive Malaysians, I think, first requires a separation of the following
>Melayu from Islam
>India from Hindu/etc.
>China from Buddist/etc
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written by LKO, January 12, 2008 05:41:30
written by LKO, January 12, 2008 05:41:30
Wow. I can see why this article is so popular. Allow me to add my 2-sen worth (opps, now minimum is 5-sen, no more copper coins). It is a story that I remembered when I was small.
3 blind men were brought to an elephant for the very first time and each tried to describe it. The first blind man touched the foot and said that an elephant is like a trunk coconut tree. The second touched the sides of belly and proclaimed that, "No, no, it is like a wall!" He touched the tail and shouted, "You idiots are wrong. It is like a rope."
They argued and shouted at each other. They started to justify why their own opinion is correct. It became louder and louder. They also started shoving and pushing. The elephant got angry and trampled on the 3 blind men and went away.
The moral of the story?
1) Everyone has their own opinions and each will believe theirs is correct. And some will go to the extreme to defend it.
2) If you think yours is correct, so be it. Each to his/her beliefs. I don't believe pushing your beliefs down another's throat will make the person a believer. Or the most funny way, trying to proof that the other religion's holy books is saying that the another religion is correct.
3 blind men were brought to an elephant for the very first time and each tried to describe it. The first blind man touched the foot and said that an elephant is like a trunk coconut tree. The second touched the sides of belly and proclaimed that, "No, no, it is like a wall!" He touched the tail and shouted, "You idiots are wrong. It is like a rope."
They argued and shouted at each other. They started to justify why their own opinion is correct. It became louder and louder. They also started shoving and pushing. The elephant got angry and trampled on the 3 blind men and went away.
The moral of the story?
1) Everyone has their own opinions and each will believe theirs is correct. And some will go to the extreme to defend it.
2) If you think yours is correct, so be it. Each to his/her beliefs. I don't believe pushing your beliefs down another's throat will make the person a believer. Or the most funny way, trying to proof that the other religion's holy books is saying that the another religion is correct.
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written by renoir, January 11, 2008 21:14:45
written by renoir, January 11, 2008 21:14:45
I wrote:
"Kruschev - during a time when America was bleeding in the Vietnam quagmire"
Should be - during a time when America was about to bleed in the Vietnam quagmire..."
---------------------------------------------------
Rohani wrote:
"Speak by the vote."
But before people can vote, let Malaysians know where everyone stands.
LChuah
"Kruschev - during a time when America was bleeding in the Vietnam quagmire"
Should be - during a time when America was about to bleed in the Vietnam quagmire..."
---------------------------------------------------
Rohani wrote:
"Speak by the vote."
But before people can vote, let Malaysians know where everyone stands.
LChuah
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 11, 2008 18:41:51
written by Rohani Hitam, January 11, 2008 18:41:51
LChuah,
Speak by the vote. There is no way BN going to change their stance. Denying BN 2/3 majority will provide the non-Malays and non-Muslims more legal rights in their language, culture and religion.
Speak by the vote. There is no way BN going to change their stance. Denying BN 2/3 majority will provide the non-Malays and non-Muslims more legal rights in their language, culture and religion.
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written by renoir, January 11, 2008 16:14:35
written by renoir, January 11, 2008 16:14:35
If the ban is an isolated event, it might be possible to consider the matter as a genuine mistake, a difference of opinion, something in which no malice is involved. But given the context of years of temple and church destruction, the "advice" not to mention the name Jesus during Christmas celebrations (such arrogance!), etc., etc., this latest outrage MUST be resolutely opposed. Failing to do so would signal the gangsters that they could ride roughshod over their victims, that nothing stands between their contempt for the weak and powerless. It would, in short, mean abject surrender to religious imperialism.
These are trying times for progressive Malaysians. I define "progressive" as Malaysians who love this country above all others, who accept that our multiculturalism should include recognition that Malay culture is the bedrock of the nation, that while Bangsa Malaysia by definition respects all cultures and religions, Malay cultural mores remain at the very core of that vision. The question then is how to go about achieving it. Can it be achieved by wiping out all other cultures and religions? If that's the case - and the intention - then we might as well forget about it. Let's not be hypocritical - let's call that vision "Bangsa Melayu" instead. On the other hand, if this country is serious about Bangsa Malaysia, then the obvious step is for the majority to assure the minority that latter's beliefs, customs and mores, are treasured. Such assurances, which should be demonstrated in actions and not merely words, would go a long way towards persuading even the most skeptical to come along, to join the party, to let the world see that we truly possess a unique, Malaysian identity. Kruschev - during a time when America was bleeding in the Vietnam quagmire - once boasted that the Soviet Union would "rule the world by invitation." Coming from an industrially backward dictatorship, that was a mighty delusion. But for us, Bangsa Malaysia need not be a delusion because generally, all the different groups tend to get along well with one another: it's only the politicians who're interested in a divide and rule policy. If the majority have good intentions, it's not unthinkable for minority groups to willingly go more than half-way, to "invite" themselves into the culture and mores of the majority. This had happened to the babas in the past, and it can easily happen again in the future once we throw away the gangsters at Putra Jaya.
But we - Malaysians as a whole - cannot do that if progressive Malays start making excuses for racial and religious imperialism. We cannot work towards becoming a united people if every few weeks the powers-that-be, in order to divert attention from their corruption, finds something to ban or destroy, from a statue in Sabah to the word "Allah" in a small magazine meant for internal circulation, from pet dogs in largely non-Muslim areas to century-old temples that were built even before the nation was born. And we cannot succeed in becoming a Bangsa Malaysia if, instead of shouting down such abuses, seemingly progressive Malays start thinking in terms of MY bangsa and MY ugama. We do have enlightened intellectuals such as Farish Noor and Azly Rahman but, sadly, they're extremely rare.
The dilemma facing non-Malay progressives is that, while they abhor taking stances on religion or race, they cannot avoid such issues because 1) these issues directly affect their lives and the lives of their children, friends, and community, and 2) ignoring such issues would destroy the very conditions for a modern, inclusive, and progressive Malaysia that they're trying to establish.
This issue cannot be swept under the carpet. Either progressive Malays speak out, as the few in M-T have done, or they condemn themselves as hypocrites. There is no middle road.
LChuah
These are trying times for progressive Malaysians. I define "progressive" as Malaysians who love this country above all others, who accept that our multiculturalism should include recognition that Malay culture is the bedrock of the nation, that while Bangsa Malaysia by definition respects all cultures and religions, Malay cultural mores remain at the very core of that vision. The question then is how to go about achieving it. Can it be achieved by wiping out all other cultures and religions? If that's the case - and the intention - then we might as well forget about it. Let's not be hypocritical - let's call that vision "Bangsa Melayu" instead. On the other hand, if this country is serious about Bangsa Malaysia, then the obvious step is for the majority to assure the minority that latter's beliefs, customs and mores, are treasured. Such assurances, which should be demonstrated in actions and not merely words, would go a long way towards persuading even the most skeptical to come along, to join the party, to let the world see that we truly possess a unique, Malaysian identity. Kruschev - during a time when America was bleeding in the Vietnam quagmire - once boasted that the Soviet Union would "rule the world by invitation." Coming from an industrially backward dictatorship, that was a mighty delusion. But for us, Bangsa Malaysia need not be a delusion because generally, all the different groups tend to get along well with one another: it's only the politicians who're interested in a divide and rule policy. If the majority have good intentions, it's not unthinkable for minority groups to willingly go more than half-way, to "invite" themselves into the culture and mores of the majority. This had happened to the babas in the past, and it can easily happen again in the future once we throw away the gangsters at Putra Jaya.
But we - Malaysians as a whole - cannot do that if progressive Malays start making excuses for racial and religious imperialism. We cannot work towards becoming a united people if every few weeks the powers-that-be, in order to divert attention from their corruption, finds something to ban or destroy, from a statue in Sabah to the word "Allah" in a small magazine meant for internal circulation, from pet dogs in largely non-Muslim areas to century-old temples that were built even before the nation was born. And we cannot succeed in becoming a Bangsa Malaysia if, instead of shouting down such abuses, seemingly progressive Malays start thinking in terms of MY bangsa and MY ugama. We do have enlightened intellectuals such as Farish Noor and Azly Rahman but, sadly, they're extremely rare.
The dilemma facing non-Malay progressives is that, while they abhor taking stances on religion or race, they cannot avoid such issues because 1) these issues directly affect their lives and the lives of their children, friends, and community, and 2) ignoring such issues would destroy the very conditions for a modern, inclusive, and progressive Malaysia that they're trying to establish.
This issue cannot be swept under the carpet. Either progressive Malays speak out, as the few in M-T have done, or they condemn themselves as hypocrites. There is no middle road.
LChuah
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written by tcng, January 11, 2008 07:59:38
written by tcng, January 11, 2008 07:59:38
I used to live in Kampung in Johor may years ago. Generally speaking, Malay masses in the rural area (especially elder people) are very kind, forgiving, understanding and always willing to help.
There are two categories of Malay-Muslim that I a worry about :-
1) The religious fanatics who insist that everything must be Halal, want to institute Islamic Law etc.
2) The political elites (mostly are not too religious) who use Islam for personal agenda. Instead of telling these religious fanatic are wrong, they try to out-Islam them.
There are two categories of Malay-Muslim that I a worry about :-
1) The religious fanatics who insist that everything must be Halal, want to institute Islamic Law etc.
2) The political elites (mostly are not too religious) who use Islam for personal agenda. Instead of telling these religious fanatic are wrong, they try to out-Islam them.
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written by Avanza1, January 09, 2008 17:17:53
written by Avanza1, January 09, 2008 17:17:53
written by Avanza1, January 09, 2008 | 00:29:28
>>written by Rohani Hitam, January 08, 2008 | 01:17:01
Yes you are right. The Muslims learned that Jesus is one of the prophets.
** Do you know the teachings of Al-Masih? Are they recorded in Quran? Please tell me more on the integrated Greek Mythology.
>>written by Rohani Hitam, January 08, 2008 | 01:17:01
Yes you are right. The Muslims learned that Jesus is one of the prophets.
** Do you know the teachings of Al-Masih? Are they recorded in Quran? Please tell me more on the integrated Greek Mythology.
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 09, 2008 16:41:08
written by Rohani Hitam, January 09, 2008 16:41:08
renoir wrote:
Huh? What act? Why should emotions run high? Whose emotions are we talking about? Whose emotions are sacrosant? Can the emotions of others also run high? And who gives anyone the right to say that people of a religion must standardize their policy???
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It is unfortunate and in fact a tragedy that renoir failed to see my point. I cannot offer anything else if your attitude is that distorted and confused. Good luck to you.
Huh? What act? Why should emotions run high? Whose emotions are we talking about? Whose emotions are sacrosant? Can the emotions of others also run high? And who gives anyone the right to say that people of a religion must standardize their policy???
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It is unfortunate and in fact a tragedy that renoir failed to see my point. I cannot offer anything else if your attitude is that distorted and confused. Good luck to you.
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written by cmoon, January 09, 2008 13:51:22
written by cmoon, January 09, 2008 13:51:22
DONT JUST TALK PRACTICE ....
Unity is the basic teaching of every religion
Prayer, in Islam, is also a congregational activity. Prayer in a group produces beneficial
vibrations. Islam promises a greater flow of ecstasy when God is adored by a huge concourse of
yearning: hearts. All of them bow low at the sight of the Masjid. They sit in rows on their bended
knees and lean forward until their palms and foreheads touch the ground in humble submission
to God’s Will. Misunderstanding, conflict and enmity should not disturb the serenity of the
occasion.
Thus Islam emphasises the One in the Many, the urge for God which manifests in various
degrees in various minds. Unity is the basic teaching of every religion. Faith in Unity is cardinal.
Without it, no system of belief and conduct can be a religion. God is One and the teachings in all
faiths that exalt Him are all on Love, Compassion, Tolerance and Sympathy. The tragedy is
neither the Muhammadans, nor the Hindhus, nor the followers of other religions are practising
these qualities in daily life.
Islam teaches that God's Grace can be won through justice and righteous living; wealth,
scholarship and power cannot earn It. Holy Love alone can please the Lord. This is the message
of every religion. But mankind has ignored this crucial point. Ramzan brings together in bonds
of love kith and kin, near and far, friend and foe. This type of negligence is happening in every
religion. The followers adopt the rules they like and break those which they find exacting. So,
they become narrow-minded and crooked. And, they rationalise their defects and justify their
failings. They have become habituated to this practice of self-deceit.
Demonstrate love and tolerance in daily activity
Since Islam means surrender to God, all who in a spirit of surrender and dedication, live in peace
and harmony in society, do really speaking, belong to Islam. Islam insists on full co-ordination
between thought, word and deed. Muslim holy men and sages have been emphasising that we
must inquire into the validity of the 'I' which feels it is the body and the 'I' which feels it is the
mind and reach the conclusion that the real 'I' is the Self yearning for the Omniself, God. The
Ramzan month, the fast and the prayers are designed to awaken and manifest this realisation.
Whichever may be the religion, its emphasis is on unity, harmony, equal-mindedness. Therefore,
cultivate love, tolerance and compassion, and demonstrate the Truth in every daily activity.
-baba 1983
Unity is the basic teaching of every religion
Prayer, in Islam, is also a congregational activity. Prayer in a group produces beneficial
vibrations. Islam promises a greater flow of ecstasy when God is adored by a huge concourse of
yearning: hearts. All of them bow low at the sight of the Masjid. They sit in rows on their bended
knees and lean forward until their palms and foreheads touch the ground in humble submission
to God’s Will. Misunderstanding, conflict and enmity should not disturb the serenity of the
occasion.
Thus Islam emphasises the One in the Many, the urge for God which manifests in various
degrees in various minds. Unity is the basic teaching of every religion. Faith in Unity is cardinal.
Without it, no system of belief and conduct can be a religion. God is One and the teachings in all
faiths that exalt Him are all on Love, Compassion, Tolerance and Sympathy. The tragedy is
neither the Muhammadans, nor the Hindhus, nor the followers of other religions are practising
these qualities in daily life.
Islam teaches that God's Grace can be won through justice and righteous living; wealth,
scholarship and power cannot earn It. Holy Love alone can please the Lord. This is the message
of every religion. But mankind has ignored this crucial point. Ramzan brings together in bonds
of love kith and kin, near and far, friend and foe. This type of negligence is happening in every
religion. The followers adopt the rules they like and break those which they find exacting. So,
they become narrow-minded and crooked. And, they rationalise their defects and justify their
failings. They have become habituated to this practice of self-deceit.
Demonstrate love and tolerance in daily activity
Since Islam means surrender to God, all who in a spirit of surrender and dedication, live in peace
and harmony in society, do really speaking, belong to Islam. Islam insists on full co-ordination
between thought, word and deed. Muslim holy men and sages have been emphasising that we
must inquire into the validity of the 'I' which feels it is the body and the 'I' which feels it is the
mind and reach the conclusion that the real 'I' is the Self yearning for the Omniself, God. The
Ramzan month, the fast and the prayers are designed to awaken and manifest this realisation.
Whichever may be the religion, its emphasis is on unity, harmony, equal-mindedness. Therefore,
cultivate love, tolerance and compassion, and demonstrate the Truth in every daily activity.
-baba 1983
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written by renoir, January 09, 2008 04:49:04
written by renoir, January 09, 2008 04:49:04
> Although both are Muslim countries but Malaysia has sizeable non-Muslim population. ]]
So?
>There is a balancing act that is necessary as emotions can run high and somebody has to ensure that the policy he takes is standardise and can avoid confusion.]]
Huh? What act? Why should emotions run high? Whose emotions are we talking about? Whose emotions are sacrosant? Can the emotions of others also run high? And who gives anyone the right to say that people of a religion must standardize their policy???
Christians don't ask the Sunnis and Shias to stop persecuting one another and standardize their religion. Please don't tell Christians that they need to standardize their prayers or whatnot.
At any rate, just a few weeks ago, worshippers at the local KL church have sung a hymn in BM using the words "Allah" and "Tuhan." We invite the ruling party to arrest the two million Christians. For be rest assured, we'll continue to do it, and we will continue to insist on the right to use the word in our publications.
LChuah
So?
>There is a balancing act that is necessary as emotions can run high and somebody has to ensure that the policy he takes is standardise and can avoid confusion.]]
Huh? What act? Why should emotions run high? Whose emotions are we talking about? Whose emotions are sacrosant? Can the emotions of others also run high? And who gives anyone the right to say that people of a religion must standardize their policy???
Christians don't ask the Sunnis and Shias to stop persecuting one another and standardize their religion. Please don't tell Christians that they need to standardize their prayers or whatnot.
At any rate, just a few weeks ago, worshippers at the local KL church have sung a hymn in BM using the words "Allah" and "Tuhan." We invite the ruling party to arrest the two million Christians. For be rest assured, we'll continue to do it, and we will continue to insist on the right to use the word in our publications.
LChuah
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written by The dragonheart, January 09, 2008 04:43:28
written by The dragonheart, January 09, 2008 04:43:28
Rohani Hitam wrote,
"The East Malaysian may want to continue to use the word Allah. Please do so at your own interst but come with a common platform among all Malaysian Chritians that the word also be used in any prayers using any language and the Muslims will support you."
....,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.....
Yes they get my support too if they use the word holistically for all languages of their bible and prayers and not just in Malay.
"The East Malaysian may want to continue to use the word Allah. Please do so at your own interst but come with a common platform among all Malaysian Chritians that the word also be used in any prayers using any language and the Muslims will support you."
....,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.....
Yes they get my support too if they use the word holistically for all languages of their bible and prayers and not just in Malay.
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 09, 2008 01:21:04
written by Rohani Hitam, January 09, 2008 01:21:04
LChuah,
Do you know why there is this COPYRIGHT law in the first place? Yes, to ensure that there is no confusion among the consumers on a specific product and to prevent profittering by other manufacturers. Many went into the trouble to get their products patented. The law was adopted because there were unscrupolous people out there can't just keep to themselves.
If manufacturers are allowed to use any name, including those already used by others, to maximise profits, then it is unethical and can be very disastorous.
To say that everyone should have the right to use any word they want in the name of justice and freedom, then I would say that it is insensitive and inconsiderate. We need to look at the background of the word, the practices, the tradition, the culture, the human factor and the sensitivity of the people already engaged in the use of the words. And more so if it involves religion.
Indonesian Catholics, followed by other denominations, used the word Allah in the late 80's. The East Malaysian Christians adopted the Indonesian Bible and used the word Allah too. But the two countries have different cultural background and ethnicity. Although both are Muslim countries but Malaysia has sizeable non-Muslim population. There is a balancing act that is necessary as emotions can run high and somebody has to ensure that the policy he takes is standardise and can avoid confusion.
Similarly the Christians have to make representation that include the aspirations of all the Christian community in the whole of Malaysia. But in this case, it is a different cup of tea. The Christians of East Malaysia feel strongly that Allah is the word and on the other hand the Christians of West Malaysia find the word a taboo. Why this lopsidedness? It is more appropriate to use the word Tuhan as it is the correct BM word for God if the Christians in East Malaysia conduct their prayers in BM.
Muslims use the word Allah, an Arabic word, because their prayers are conducted in Arabic.
The East Malaysian may want to continue to use the word Allah. Please do so at your own interst but come with a common platform among all Malaysian Chritians that the word also be used in any prayers using any language and the Muslims will support you.
Do you know why there is this COPYRIGHT law in the first place? Yes, to ensure that there is no confusion among the consumers on a specific product and to prevent profittering by other manufacturers. Many went into the trouble to get their products patented. The law was adopted because there were unscrupolous people out there can't just keep to themselves.
If manufacturers are allowed to use any name, including those already used by others, to maximise profits, then it is unethical and can be very disastorous.
To say that everyone should have the right to use any word they want in the name of justice and freedom, then I would say that it is insensitive and inconsiderate. We need to look at the background of the word, the practices, the tradition, the culture, the human factor and the sensitivity of the people already engaged in the use of the words. And more so if it involves religion.
Indonesian Catholics, followed by other denominations, used the word Allah in the late 80's. The East Malaysian Christians adopted the Indonesian Bible and used the word Allah too. But the two countries have different cultural background and ethnicity. Although both are Muslim countries but Malaysia has sizeable non-Muslim population. There is a balancing act that is necessary as emotions can run high and somebody has to ensure that the policy he takes is standardise and can avoid confusion.
Similarly the Christians have to make representation that include the aspirations of all the Christian community in the whole of Malaysia. But in this case, it is a different cup of tea. The Christians of East Malaysia feel strongly that Allah is the word and on the other hand the Christians of West Malaysia find the word a taboo. Why this lopsidedness? It is more appropriate to use the word Tuhan as it is the correct BM word for God if the Christians in East Malaysia conduct their prayers in BM.
Muslims use the word Allah, an Arabic word, because their prayers are conducted in Arabic.
The East Malaysian may want to continue to use the word Allah. Please do so at your own interst but come with a common platform among all Malaysian Chritians that the word also be used in any prayers using any language and the Muslims will support you.
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written by renoir, January 08, 2008 17:35:00
written by renoir, January 08, 2008 17:35:00
I used to discuss, when I'd nothing better to do, about religion with a Sabahan some decades ago. He shared a swimming class with me - for him an elective, for me part of my major - and even during those days he was worried about the future of his race, his religion. Anyway, he used "Allah" and "God" interchangeably, perhaps because I was from West Malaysia. Further, even during my time (the 50s), teachers used to say something like "God, or as Muslims might call Him, Allah" and so on.
Whatever the case, no one can claim exclusive use of a name he or she didn't invent. You cannot demand copyright payment from someone using the name "Adidas" because, somewhere down the line, you decided to start a factory making crotchless Adidas panties. You cannot tell others, hey! from now on don't use the name as it might confuse people. In fact, you'd be lucky if the genuine owner of the Adidas trademark didn't slap a lawsuit on you for copyright infringement, after slipping the said panties around your neck.
Thus, as mentioned so many times in this blog, no religion can claim exclusive use of the name "Allah" if it had been used BEFORE that religion existed. If anything, any Arab of whatever religion ought to be able to take you to court for making that claim, because HIS PEOPLE HAD USED IT BEFORE YOU APPROPRIATED IT FOR YOUR RELIGION. Just like the genuine Adidas owner has the right to sue you for copyright infringement.
The question about whether Christians use the term or not is a red herring. My Chinese Christian friends often called God "Shangti" or sometimes imitated the Hebrew word "Yahweh." But that does not mean they cannot mention "God" in their services. In fact, even atheists ought to be able to use whatever name - God, Yahweh, Allah, etc, - if they so wanted. Anytime. Any number of times. Or only once in their lives. It's their business. Because no one, no religion, can claim exclusive ownership of those words.
This matter has been blown up specifically to create divisions among the communities, and I'm sorry that some short-sighted people - unless they're BN's cyberwarriors - have fallen into that trap. I would've thought that Muslims in particular would've taken the position that, as the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, whatever each religion does is its own business. I was wrong, and in this very simple test of commonsense and broadmindedness, many Muslims have failed, including those in the Opposition.
LChuah
Whatever the case, no one can claim exclusive use of a name he or she didn't invent. You cannot demand copyright payment from someone using the name "Adidas" because, somewhere down the line, you decided to start a factory making crotchless Adidas panties. You cannot tell others, hey! from now on don't use the name as it might confuse people. In fact, you'd be lucky if the genuine owner of the Adidas trademark didn't slap a lawsuit on you for copyright infringement, after slipping the said panties around your neck.
Thus, as mentioned so many times in this blog, no religion can claim exclusive use of the name "Allah" if it had been used BEFORE that religion existed. If anything, any Arab of whatever religion ought to be able to take you to court for making that claim, because HIS PEOPLE HAD USED IT BEFORE YOU APPROPRIATED IT FOR YOUR RELIGION. Just like the genuine Adidas owner has the right to sue you for copyright infringement.
The question about whether Christians use the term or not is a red herring. My Chinese Christian friends often called God "Shangti" or sometimes imitated the Hebrew word "Yahweh." But that does not mean they cannot mention "God" in their services. In fact, even atheists ought to be able to use whatever name - God, Yahweh, Allah, etc, - if they so wanted. Anytime. Any number of times. Or only once in their lives. It's their business. Because no one, no religion, can claim exclusive ownership of those words.
This matter has been blown up specifically to create divisions among the communities, and I'm sorry that some short-sighted people - unless they're BN's cyberwarriors - have fallen into that trap. I would've thought that Muslims in particular would've taken the position that, as the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, whatever each religion does is its own business. I was wrong, and in this very simple test of commonsense and broadmindedness, many Muslims have failed, including those in the Opposition.
LChuah
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written by Avanza1, January 08, 2008 16:29:28
written by Avanza1, January 08, 2008 16:29:28
>>written by Rohani Hitam, January 08, 2008 | 01:17:01
Yes you are right. The Muslims learned that Jesus is one of the prophets.
** Do you know the teachings of Al-Masih? Are they recorded in Quran? Please tell me more on the integrated Greek Mythology.
Yes you are right. The Muslims learned that Jesus is one of the prophets.
** Do you know the teachings of Al-Masih? Are they recorded in Quran? Please tell me more on the integrated Greek Mythology.
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 07, 2008 17:17:01
written by Rohani Hitam, January 07, 2008 17:17:01
Avanza1 wrote:
** Don't think Rohani Hitam would be able to give you a satisfactory answer. Muslim will tell you that Jesus(Al-Masih) is one of their prophets(so are other Israelite prophets) but they do not know what are is teachings and his ministry.
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Yes you are right. The Muslims learned that Jesus is one of the prophets. The Muslims also learned that Paul was responsible to integrate Greek Mythology with so-called "Christianity" to bring appeal to the Gentiles especially the Greeks, Syrians, and the Egyptians. The Muslims also learned that Jesus never taught Ressurection or Trinity and never said anyting to suggest that he is God..
** Don't think Rohani Hitam would be able to give you a satisfactory answer. Muslim will tell you that Jesus(Al-Masih) is one of their prophets(so are other Israelite prophets) but they do not know what are is teachings and his ministry.
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Yes you are right. The Muslims learned that Jesus is one of the prophets. The Muslims also learned that Paul was responsible to integrate Greek Mythology with so-called "Christianity" to bring appeal to the Gentiles especially the Greeks, Syrians, and the Egyptians. The Muslims also learned that Jesus never taught Ressurection or Trinity and never said anyting to suggest that he is God..
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written by Rohani Hitam, January 07, 2008 17:07:09
written by Rohani Hitam, January 07, 2008 17:07:09
Avanza1 wrote:
The Pauline Church is coined by the Muslims. There is no such thing.
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Hei.. are you not reading encyclopedias and history books on the history of Christianity? Maybe your reading is confined to Christian writers I can understand.
The Pauline Church is coined by the Muslims. There is no such thing.
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Hei.. are you not reading encyclopedias and history books on the history of Christianity? Maybe your reading is confined to Christian writers I can understand.
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written by anand, January 05, 2008 18:57:50
written by anand, January 05, 2008 18:57:50
sorry to say, when i go 2 buy 4D &toto, there are more people consired buying it haram in the queue
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written by datnari, January 05, 2008 12:11:25
written by datnari, January 05, 2008 12:11:25
i am sure the wise malay muslims must be kicking themselves in the butt for having idiots and imbeciles in parliament representing them as muslims. It's so sad to know that the goons in cabinet are the true culprits who are giving the muslims a bad name. They (the cabinet) is doing a superb job in alienating the muslim mass from the rest of the world.
Only in malaysia do we have the government telling it's people how and what religion to profess!!!
As far as i am concerned, it's high time to clean out the shit in parliament i.e. those sitting on the ruling government section of the dewan.
.
Only in malaysia do we have the government telling it's people how and what religion to profess!!!
As far as i am concerned, it's high time to clean out the shit in parliament i.e. those sitting on the ruling government section of the dewan.
.
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written by Avanza1, January 05, 2008 07:09:27
written by Avanza1, January 05, 2008 07:09:27
>>
written by Terminator, December 28, 2007 | 08:06:04
I guess this is why Islam is perceived to be a 'terrorist' religion when the 'JIHAD' term is increasingly taken out of context and practiced.
** We all want to live in a peace and harmony. We thank our Asian culture of love and respect for each other that make what Asians are today.We need to reject the culture which is slowly creeping in form Mid-East. We need not need to fight a war for their ideology and destroy ourselves. This do remember. You need to think and decided what kind of media news is pushing us to that direction. We need to be careful of our good charity money is not use for wrong reasons.
>>written by mimag2005, December 28, 2007 | 21:51:06
but he knows maradona, beckham and the group.
** Ha ha ha! That is true.
>>written by Rohani Hitam, December 29, 2007 | 00:07:20
Will the church in West Malaysia use the word "Allah" in lieau of Jesus, God or the Father when conducting sermon or prayers to fellow Christians in English, Chinese or Tamil?
** So is this the condition in order to us "Allah"? If I learn to speak Japanese then do I need to stop speaking English totally? It is common in Malaysia that we speak with a mixture of Tamil, Malay, Cantonese, Hokkien, Iban, Murut, English, Mandarin. Even our primetime news you will find they do not use total pure Dewan Bahasa malay. P/s : Something wrong with your caps lock button? Hope you get a new keyboard.
>>written by mimag2005, December 29, 2007 | 00:47:16
I read in your Koran, jesus birth, ministryship etc was mentioned. My Muslim friends told me that one cannot be called a Muslim if he dont accept Jesus. I think its part of your rakan or kurun ... im not so sure.
** Don't think Rohani Hitam would be able to give you a satisfactory answer. Muslim will tell you that Jesus(Al-Masih) is one of their prophets(so are other Israelite prophets) but they do not know what are is teachings and his ministry.
>>written by Rohani Hitam, December 29, 2007 | 03:09:56
Islam is a very simple religion. You either follow the teaching or you don't.
** When religion and state is inseparable (Refer to Mahathir and Badawi) it is never simple. Please accept the fact and rephrase yourself.
>>We have lived harmoniously until lately when some issues become very threatening. The use of Allah is one of them.
** I don't think it is threatening. The ppl in Palestine lived in harmony prior to WW II. The all use the same word for their God.
>>
written by stchin, December 29, 2007 | 07:58:15
come..come...come with LOVE & HARMONY !
** Ha ha ha... God bles the peace makers.
>>written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 | 11:46:23
Yes because you are duped. The corect word supposed to be "Bapak, Anak dan Ruh Kudus" Allah is exclusively used for Unitarian God beleivers and not the Trinitarian God beleiver. Since the decision by the Council of Necea in 327 AD, the trinitarian Pauline Church was accepted against the Unitarian Church and the word "The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost" was blessed in every prayers. Why the churches in Sarawak and Sabah have stopped using them? Ask them.
** Do you see mass of UMNO members converting to Christianity due to the Al-Kitab using the word Allah? The Pauline Church is coined by the Muslims. There is no such thing.
>>written by mimag2005, December 30, 2007 | 22:49:30
**Yr answer is it is john who answered
9 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? 26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; 27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
written by Terminator, December 28, 2007 | 08:06:04
I guess this is why Islam is perceived to be a 'terrorist' religion when the 'JIHAD' term is increasingly taken out of context and practiced.
** We all want to live in a peace and harmony. We thank our Asian culture of love and respect for each other that make what Asians are today.We need to reject the culture which is slowly creeping in form Mid-East. We need not need to fight a war for their ideology and destroy ourselves. This do remember. You need to think and decided what kind of media news is pushing us to that direction. We need to be careful of our good charity money is not use for wrong reasons.
>>written by mimag2005, December 28, 2007 | 21:51:06
but he knows maradona, beckham and the group.
** Ha ha ha! That is true.
>>written by Rohani Hitam, December 29, 2007 | 00:07:20
Will the church in West Malaysia use the word "Allah" in lieau of Jesus, God or the Father when conducting sermon or prayers to fellow Christians in English, Chinese or Tamil?
** So is this the condition in order to us "Allah"? If I learn to speak Japanese then do I need to stop speaking English totally? It is common in Malaysia that we speak with a mixture of Tamil, Malay, Cantonese, Hokkien, Iban, Murut, English, Mandarin. Even our primetime news you will find they do not use total pure Dewan Bahasa malay. P/s : Something wrong with your caps lock button? Hope you get a new keyboard.
>>written by mimag2005, December 29, 2007 | 00:47:16
I read in your Koran, jesus birth, ministryship etc was mentioned. My Muslim friends told me that one cannot be called a Muslim if he dont accept Jesus. I think its part of your rakan or kurun ... im not so sure.
** Don't think Rohani Hitam would be able to give you a satisfactory answer. Muslim will tell you that Jesus(Al-Masih) is one of their prophets(so are other Israelite prophets) but they do not know what are is teachings and his ministry.
>>written by Rohani Hitam, December 29, 2007 | 03:09:56
Islam is a very simple religion. You either follow the teaching or you don't.
** When religion and state is inseparable (Refer to Mahathir and Badawi) it is never simple. Please accept the fact and rephrase yourself.
>>We have lived harmoniously until lately when some issues become very threatening. The use of Allah is one of them.
** I don't think it is threatening. The ppl in Palestine lived in harmony prior to WW II. The all use the same word for their God.
>>
written by stchin, December 29, 2007 | 07:58:15
come..come...come with LOVE & HARMONY !
** Ha ha ha... God bles the peace makers.
>>written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 | 11:46:23
Yes because you are duped. The corect word supposed to be "Bapak, Anak dan Ruh Kudus" Allah is exclusively used for Unitarian God beleivers and not the Trinitarian God beleiver. Since the decision by the Council of Necea in 327 AD, the trinitarian Pauline Church was accepted against the Unitarian Church and the word "The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost" was blessed in every prayers. Why the churches in Sarawak and Sabah have stopped using them? Ask them.
** Do you see mass of UMNO members converting to Christianity due to the Al-Kitab using the word Allah? The Pauline Church is coined by the Muslims. There is no such thing.
>>written by mimag2005, December 30, 2007 | 22:49:30
**Yr answer is it is john who answered
9 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? 26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; 27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
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written by Avanza1, January 05, 2008 07:08:56
written by Avanza1, January 05, 2008 07:08:56
>>
written by mimag2005, December 27, 2007 | 04:08:01
....."But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me "....
**Again you are doing a selective reading. You have to read the whole chapter. He is not preaching violence. He talking about ppl who refuse to submit to a king. Care to read further back, the book of revelations..
1.And he entered and was passing through Jericho. 2 And behold, a man called by name Zacchaeus; and he was a chief publican, and he was rich. 3 And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the crowd, because he was little of stature. 4 And he ran on before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way. 5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to-day I must abide at thy house. 6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully. 7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, He is gone in to lodge with a man that is a sinner. 8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord, Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have wrongfully exacted aught of any man, I restore fourfold. 9 And Jesus said unto him, To-day is salvation come to this house, forasmuch as he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost.
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was immediately to appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country, to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called ten servants of his, and gave them ten pounds, and said unto them, Trade ye herewith till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent an ambassage after him, saying, We will not that this man reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, when he was come back again, having received the kingdom, that he commanded these servants, unto whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by trading. 16 And the first came before him, saying, Lord, thy pound hath made ten pounds more. 17 And he said unto him, Well done, thou good servant: because thou wast found faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Thy pound, Lord, hath made five pounds. 19 And he said unto him also, Be thou also over five cities. 20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I kept laid up in a napkin: 21 for I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that which thou layedst not down, and reapest that which thou didst not sow. 22 He saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I am an austere man, taking up that which I laid not down, and reaping that which I did not sow; 23 then wherefore gavest thou not my money into the bank, and I at my coming should have required it with interest? 24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take away from him the pound, and give it unto him that hath the ten pounds. 25 And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds. 26 I say unto you, that unto every one that hath shall be given; but from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But these mine enemies, that would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
>>written by mimag2005, December 27, 2007 | 15:33:15
01) Besides the 12 Israeli Tribes, which other community qualify to be " The Lost Sheep of the House of
Israel " ?
** Precise to HIS words.
>.But our Church Elders teach otherwise... Who to believe ????
Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
>>
written by mimag2005, December 28, 2007 | 03:11:25
-After his sojourn, there came about 2 schools… one preach Unitarian Christianity ( as taught by Jesus) and the other preach Pauline Christianity ( whose main creed/doctrine was the Trinity and the Cricifixion of Jesus)
** This part is a very long topic, perhaps you can visit http://www.islameyat.com/engli..._faith.htm
written by mimag2005, December 27, 2007 | 04:08:01
....."But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me "....
**Again you are doing a selective reading. You have to read the whole chapter. He is not preaching violence. He talking about ppl who refuse to submit to a king. Care to read further back, the book of revelations..
1.And he entered and was passing through Jericho. 2 And behold, a man called by name Zacchaeus; and he was a chief publican, and he was rich. 3 And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the crowd, because he was little of stature. 4 And he ran on before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way. 5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to-day I must abide at thy house. 6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully. 7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, He is gone in to lodge with a man that is a sinner. 8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord, Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have wrongfully exacted aught of any man, I restore fourfold. 9 And Jesus said unto him, To-day is salvation come to this house, forasmuch as he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost.
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was immediately to appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country, to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called ten servants of his, and gave them ten pounds, and said unto them, Trade ye herewith till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent an ambassage after him, saying, We will not that this man reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, when he was come back again, having received the kingdom, that he commanded these servants, unto whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by trading. 16 And the first came before him, saying, Lord, thy pound hath made ten pounds more. 17 And he said unto him, Well done, thou good servant: because thou wast found faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Thy pound, Lord, hath made five pounds. 19 And he said unto him also, Be thou also over five cities. 20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I kept laid up in a napkin: 21 for I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that which thou layedst not down, and reapest that which thou didst not sow. 22 He saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I am an austere man, taking up that which I laid not down, and reaping that which I did not sow; 23 then wherefore gavest thou not my money into the bank, and I at my coming should have required it with interest? 24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take away from him the pound, and give it unto him that hath the ten pounds. 25 And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds. 26 I say unto you, that unto every one that hath shall be given; but from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But these mine enemies, that would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
>>written by mimag2005, December 27, 2007 | 15:33:15
01) Besides the 12 Israeli Tribes, which other community qualify to be " The Lost Sheep of the House of
Israel " ?
** Precise to HIS words.
>.But our Church Elders teach otherwise... Who to believe ????
Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
>>
written by mimag2005, December 28, 2007 | 03:11:25
-After his sojourn, there came about 2 schools… one preach Unitarian Christianity ( as taught by Jesus) and the other preach Pauline Christianity ( whose main creed/doctrine was the Trinity and the Cricifixion of Jesus)
** This part is a very long topic, perhaps you can visit http://www.islameyat.com/engli..._faith.htm
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written by Avanza1, January 05, 2008 07:08:22
written by Avanza1, January 05, 2008 07:08:22
>>written by cruzeiro, December 26, 2007 | 12:13:37
Some look upon the word "Allah" as a word for "God"; and others, look upon it as a name for their God - it's as simple as that.
**You are a few steps nearer to God/Allah
>>written by salakkan, December 26, 2007 | 21:08:38
Not necessarily. In many countries you have Muslims and Non living under one roof ! And pleasantly surprising, it does happen in Indonesia!
**When islam started, it was weak and allow muslime MEN to marry non-muslim women but offsprings from such marriage r automatically muslims. Mathematically it is a win-win for Islam. However muslime women are not allowed to marry non-muslim men. Also a win-win mathematically.
>>written by Panca Indera, December 27, 2007 | 01:42:26
The Islamic Republic of Iran is the only recourse left for Muslims to fight for justice
Looking forward to the Mahdi PBUH and Jesus PBUH second coming soon!
** Not sure what r wishing for? Justice or Doom, but you may have yr own preferences. You can only serve one master, Mahdi or Jesus PBUH
>>
written by mimag2005, December 28, 2007 | 03:11:25
-After his sojourn, there came about 2 schools… one preach Unitarian Christianity ( as taught by Jesus) and the other preach Pauline Christianity ( whose main creed/doctrine was the Trinity and the Cricifixion of Jesus)
** This part is a very long topic, perhaps you can visit http://www.islameyat.com/engli..._faith.htm
Some look upon the word "Allah" as a word for "God"; and others, look upon it as a name for their God - it's as simple as that.
**You are a few steps nearer to God/Allah
>>written by salakkan, December 26, 2007 | 21:08:38
Not necessarily. In many countries you have Muslims and Non living under one roof ! And pleasantly surprising, it does happen in Indonesia!
**When islam started, it was weak and allow muslime MEN to marry non-muslim women but offsprings from such marriage r automatically muslims. Mathematically it is a win-win for Islam. However muslime women are not allowed to marry non-muslim men. Also a win-win mathematically.
>>written by Panca Indera, December 27, 2007 | 01:42:26
The Islamic Republic of Iran is the only recourse left for Muslims to fight for justice
Looking forward to the Mahdi PBUH and Jesus PBUH second coming soon!
** Not sure what r wishing for? Justice or Doom, but you may have yr own preferences. You can only serve one master, Mahdi or Jesus PBUH
>>
written by mimag2005, December 28, 2007 | 03:11:25
-After his sojourn, there came about 2 schools… one preach Unitarian Christianity ( as taught by Jesus) and the other preach Pauline Christianity ( whose main creed/doctrine was the Trinity and the Cricifixion of Jesus)
** This part is a very long topic, perhaps you can visit http://www.islameyat.com/engli..._faith.htm
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written by Avanza1, January 05, 2008 07:07:00
written by Avanza1, January 05, 2008 07:07:00
>>written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 | 22:44:19
how come JESUS THE SAVIOUR OF SOULS AND LEADER OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH FORGOT TO NAME HIS RELIGION CHRISTIANITY BUT,
INSTEAD LEFT IT TO HIS ENEMIES AT ANTIOCH TO GIVE IT A NAME ???
**Name is not important but YOU are more important to God. That is what HE want. What enemies gave the name in Antioch? Please check your history book.
>>DO YOU SEE ANY OF THE ABOVE ANOINTED FIGURES from 3 " so called different faiths" DECLARING MORE THAN ONE GOD ???
** Like many muslim you suffer from selective reading.
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.
**hese things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
>>written by Bukit Chandan, December 26, 2007 | 11:21:42
1. We would like to highlight a very important issue that has cropped up lately. There is no extremism in Islam. Islam is a perfect religion as we have already explained in our previous commentary
** Care to provide more details on this from Quran? Statement on this point of your is not proving anything. A President is choosen but history will tell if he is a good President or a bad one. Same goes to a prophet. Who said 'kill them wherever you go'
>>2. Also, the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. said which means "The best among you are the ones that do things in moderation". Moderation here refers to the characteristic of the 'Ummatan Wasatan' above.
**Moderation is relative. Just like tolerance. What I am able to tolerate may not be the same as you. Even in history, some leaders believe killing a small population is acceptable, most likely the ppl who oppose the leaders.
>>3. From points 1 and 2,
** There was a poet who criticised a particular leader, one of his supported was angry of the poet. He slip into her house in the night remove the baby from the poets arm and remove the poets head. In the morning the head was displayed to the public by the murderer. The community was terrorised. The leader looked and turned away, murderer unpunished. Who is the terrorist? The murderer or the leader?
how come JESUS THE SAVIOUR OF SOULS AND LEADER OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH FORGOT TO NAME HIS RELIGION CHRISTIANITY BUT,
INSTEAD LEFT IT TO HIS ENEMIES AT ANTIOCH TO GIVE IT A NAME ???
**Name is not important but YOU are more important to God. That is what HE want. What enemies gave the name in Antioch? Please check your history book.
>>DO YOU SEE ANY OF THE ABOVE ANOINTED FIGURES from 3 " so called different faiths" DECLARING MORE THAN ONE GOD ???
** Like many muslim you suffer from selective reading.
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.
**hese things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
>>written by Bukit Chandan, December 26, 2007 | 11:21:42
1. We would like to highlight a very important issue that has cropped up lately. There is no extremism in Islam. Islam is a perfect religion as we have already explained in our previous commentary
** Care to provide more details on this from Quran? Statement on this point of your is not proving anything. A President is choosen but history will tell if he is a good President or a bad one. Same goes to a prophet. Who said 'kill them wherever you go'
>>2. Also, the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. said which means "The best among you are the ones that do things in moderation". Moderation here refers to the characteristic of the 'Ummatan Wasatan' above.
**Moderation is relative. Just like tolerance. What I am able to tolerate may not be the same as you. Even in history, some leaders believe killing a small population is acceptable, most likely the ppl who oppose the leaders.
>>3. From points 1 and 2,
** There was a poet who criticised a particular leader, one of his supported was angry of the poet. He slip into her house in the night remove the baby from the poets arm and remove the poets head. In the morning the head was displayed to the public by the murderer. The community was terrorised. The leader looked and turned away, murderer unpunished. Who is the terrorist? The murderer or the leader?
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written by SUV, January 05, 2008 03:28:21
written by SUV, January 05, 2008 03:28:21
67. There is no sin in man, but a great deal of disease, ignorance and misapplication.
SRI AUROBINDO
http://naqsh.org/ned/?page_id=211
SRI AUROBINDO
http://naqsh.org/ned/?page_id=211
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written by Msia Negarakuku, January 04, 2008 17:33:17
written by Msia Negarakuku, January 04, 2008 17:33:17
In my opinion, Malay race is nice and polite people but religion turn them into beast. I think if Malays practises this old Malay saying "buat baik berpada-pada, buat jahat jangan sekali". no religion is needed. Religion is just a guide to be good.
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written by Msia Negarakuku, January 04, 2008 17:17:01
written by Msia Negarakuku, January 04, 2008 17:17:01
Dear Admin of Malaysia Today,
why am I still cannot post in most of the forums although logged in? I received this message...Write comment
You must be logged in to a comment. Please register if you do not have an account yet.
why am I still cannot post in most of the forums although logged in? I received this message...Write comment
You must be logged in to a comment. Please register if you do not have an account yet.
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written by sampalee, January 03, 2008 02:08:14
written by sampalee, January 03, 2008 02:08:14
Every religion start of with certain provisional concepts to displace the grosser false mundane concepts as an aid to know the truth.Eventually the so call eXpediant concept must also be dropped to realise truth.If Truth remainb a concept to be discussed,then one is no closer to the truth[ amiss is as good as a mile].The Tao that can be cultivated or even named is not the TAo.tRUTH IS EVIDENT WHEN ONE UNITE WITH GOD AS ONE[Yoga]
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written by Anak Desa, January 01, 2008 19:09:48
written by Anak Desa, January 01, 2008 19:09:48
The tag ..halal or haram depends on the ruling goverment ministers to suit their views and there should be no questions asked..
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written by Fart Fart Wah, January 01, 2008 18:04:53
the blind will lead the blind as was said by ISA............
Wafa Sultan. We hope you will visit Frontpagemag.com again soon
to all bloggers...please see what Wafa Sultan says about the latest killing of a 16 year old girl
by her father for not wearing the hijab...
for me I wonder which Allah permitted this killing again????
written by Fart Fart Wah, January 01, 2008 18:04:53
the blind will lead the blind as was said by ISA............
Wafa Sultan. We hope you will visit Frontpagemag.com again soon
to all bloggers...please see what Wafa Sultan says about the latest killing of a 16 year old girl
by her father for not wearing the hijab...
for me I wonder which Allah permitted this killing again????
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written by b00n, January 01, 2008 06:28:31
written by b00n, January 01, 2008 06:28:31
"Allah" is in Arabic same as "God" in English and "Tuhan" in BM.
So what's the fuss?.......
It just comes to shows how ppl are so sensitive about things that weren't meant to be. Stupidity and ignorance.
So what's the fuss?.......
It just comes to shows how ppl are so sensitive about things that weren't meant to be. Stupidity and ignorance.
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written by DontPlayGod, January 01, 2008 01:14:46
written by DontPlayGod, January 01, 2008 01:14:46
To summarise, what is going on in the developing countries(sorry, mainly Islamic countries) is that religion has been hijacked for political power and lust.
And as I have often written, using religion to govern and control is the most effective way to rule and control a nation. Who can go against God's rule and laws? I have always maintained that religion is a very private matter. It has nothing to do with your parents, your teachers, your ministers, etc. In the end, when you leave this world to face your God, you and only you will answer 100% for your deed or misdeeds, not anybody else, not even your parents or PM!
The Islamic countries are all heading for doom. Can anyone name one developed Islamic country living in peace and prosperity? In case some of you are tempted to name our country, for your info. our country is also heading for doom at the way Islamisation is now going on.
Until and unless Muslims wake up and separate politics from religion, just like what the Christian world did centuries ago, there is no way that the Islamic world can develope and progress. When Islam is used as a political ideology, then the Imams, muftis, and ayatollah's will rule the country, and you know the mentality of these people or any so-called religious priests. I have always never trusted them.
And as I have often written, using religion to govern and control is the most effective way to rule and control a nation. Who can go against God's rule and laws? I have always maintained that religion is a very private matter. It has nothing to do with your parents, your teachers, your ministers, etc. In the end, when you leave this world to face your God, you and only you will answer 100% for your deed or misdeeds, not anybody else, not even your parents or PM!
The Islamic countries are all heading for doom. Can anyone name one developed Islamic country living in peace and prosperity? In case some of you are tempted to name our country, for your info. our country is also heading for doom at the way Islamisation is now going on.
Until and unless Muslims wake up and separate politics from religion, just like what the Christian world did centuries ago, there is no way that the Islamic world can develope and progress. When Islam is used as a political ideology, then the Imams, muftis, and ayatollah's will rule the country, and you know the mentality of these people or any so-called religious priests. I have always never trusted them.
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written by RasuahMinister, December 31, 2007 20:56:08
written by RasuahMinister, December 31, 2007 20:56:08
Selamat Tahun Baru
and
Tuhan/God/Allah memblesskan you all
and
Tuhan/God/Allah memblesskan you all
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written by monstercat, December 31, 2007 11:27:02
written by monstercat, December 31, 2007 11:27:02
I wish we could together-gether fight for our Malaysia, regardless of our individual culture and religion. At the end of the day, the important thing is that Malaysia will be able to survive the fast changing economic environment. Not only survive but we should all aim for Malaysia to be a nation where its citizens are successful in various aspects. That will be the day when we can scream "Malaysia Boleh" because we really boleh, not because we just want to show the world that we can. What's the point of showing to others when we really need to nurture the confidence of our people?
Anyway, easier said than done. Happy new year 2008 everyone!
Be merry without getting drunk! You can't enjoy while drunk cos you'll be puking all over the place and your vision starts to swing
Be safe and take care.
Anyway, easier said than done. Happy new year 2008 everyone!
Be merry without getting drunk! You can't enjoy while drunk cos you'll be puking all over the place and your vision starts to swing
Be safe and take care.
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written by Talisman, December 31, 2007 09:34:44
written by Talisman, December 31, 2007 09:34:44
Much has been said , written, ridculed, laughed at, etc on this topic. Remember, at the end of the terrible period we know as winter shall spring cometh.
Please log into http://www.acommonword.com/
Could this be the advent of springtime in the history human civilisation?
Please log into http://www.acommonword.com/
Could this be the advent of springtime in the history human civilisation?
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written by cm2121, December 31, 2007 05:30:33
written by cm2121, December 31, 2007 05:30:33
Peace to all. My hope is that one day there will truly be a united Malaysian race regardless of racial or religious background who respect one another without any form of suspicions. At the end of the day, my ardent hope is for Malaysians to live peacefully and to respect each others' beliefs. And may the grace of the Almighty (whatever name we may call Him) brings true peace to our beloved nation. Peace to all. Happy new year.
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written by mimag2005, December 31, 2007 03:22:57
written by mimag2005, December 31, 2007 03:22:57
written by sampalee, December 31, 2007 | 10:04:42
Dear Sampalee,
Good morning,
In the dreams of seperation,we rejoice with friends and confronts with our enemy,but once awake,it is only Tuhan appearing AS our friends and enemy and ALSO AS ourselves.All are indeed manifestai9on of GOD,there is no others.Only God is real,all else are illusions.
----------------------------------------------------------------
" Illusions within the illusions "..... whatever we perceive HE IS NOT !!
Happy New Year !
Dear Sampalee,
Good morning,
In the dreams of seperation,we rejoice with friends and confronts with our enemy,but once awake,it is only Tuhan appearing AS our friends and enemy and ALSO AS ourselves.All are indeed manifestai9on of GOD,there is no others.Only God is real,all else are illusions.
----------------------------------------------------------------
" Illusions within the illusions "..... whatever we perceive HE IS NOT !!
Happy New Year !
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written by sampalee, December 31, 2007 02:04:42
written by sampalee, December 31, 2007 02:04:42
In the dreams of seperation,we rejoice with friends and confronts with our enemy,but once awake,it is only Tuhan appearing AS our friends and enemy and ALSO AS ourselves.All are indeed manifestai9on of GOD,there is no others.Only God is real,all else are illusions.Tuhan is not an object or a concept.It mis before the genesis of of every known and unknown things including new and old concepts and will remain even after all have disappear.
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written by Tornado, December 31, 2007 01:43:49
written by Tornado, December 31, 2007 01:43:49
Only in Malaysia :-
1. Pusat Judi Haram
2. Pusat Hiburan Haram
3. Pendatang Haram
4. Ladang Babi Haram
5. Jualan Arak Haram
6. Lumba Haram
7. Pusat Sembelihan Haram
8. Pusat Pinjaman Wang Haram
9. Perhimpunan Haram, etc...
Halal only for any Government Personal activities even classified HARAM by ISLAM such as:-
1. Killing People
2. Gets portion from some transaction made by government
3. Using people money for personal interest
4. Dealing with HANTU during voting for Parlimen & DUN seats
5. Compounding Business/Cronism
"Blood & Honor"
1. Pusat Judi Haram
2. Pusat Hiburan Haram
3. Pendatang Haram
4. Ladang Babi Haram
5. Jualan Arak Haram
6. Lumba Haram
7. Pusat Sembelihan Haram
8. Pusat Pinjaman Wang Haram
9. Perhimpunan Haram, etc...
Halal only for any Government Personal activities even classified HARAM by ISLAM such as:-
1. Killing People
2. Gets portion from some transaction made by government
3. Using people money for personal interest
4. Dealing with HANTU during voting for Parlimen & DUN seats
5. Compounding Business/Cronism
"Blood & Honor"
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 17:54:39
written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 17:54:39
monstercat, jedyoong, mimag2005 and cm2121.
Happy and Prosperous New Year. May God Bless you. The debate ends here. Many thanks and no hard feelings.
Yours Sincerely
Rohani Hitam
Happy and Prosperous New Year. May God Bless you. The debate ends here. Many thanks and no hard feelings.
Yours Sincerely
Rohani Hitam
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written by mimag2005, December 30, 2007 17:40:39
written by mimag2005, December 30, 2007 17:40:39
Dear brother monstercat,
seems the theme now sort of swung to the... dupe mode i.e. to dupe or being duped...
and... sensing your sincerity I brought to your attention about THIS "ANOTHER PROPHET AFTER JESUS
as mentioned in the Holy Bible ". ( WHICH THE CHURCH ELDERS WILL NOT DISCUSS !!!)
Brother.... Even The Holy Bible and her billions of sincere followers since last 2000 years has not been spared of this cancerous DUPING disease propagated by our Church Elders ON THE UNSUSPECTING AND TRUSTING LOST SHEEP....These ELDERS many of whom are actually wolves dressed in cloaks !!!
seems the theme now sort of swung to the... dupe mode i.e. to dupe or being duped...
and... sensing your sincerity I brought to your attention about THIS "ANOTHER PROPHET AFTER JESUS
as mentioned in the Holy Bible ". ( WHICH THE CHURCH ELDERS WILL NOT DISCUSS !!!)
Brother.... Even The Holy Bible and her billions of sincere followers since last 2000 years has not been spared of this cancerous DUPING disease propagated by our Church Elders ON THE UNSUSPECTING AND TRUSTING LOST SHEEP....These ELDERS many of whom are actually wolves dressed in cloaks !!!
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written by jedyoong, December 30, 2007 17:30:22
written by jedyoong, December 30, 2007 17:30:22
Dear All,
Let's cease all debate at once as I feel strongly that we are falling into UMNO's trap.
Let's carry on as usual and let this non-issue fizzle out.
Happy New Year.
Warmest regards,
Jed Yoong
Let's cease all debate at once as I feel strongly that we are falling into UMNO's trap.
Let's carry on as usual and let this non-issue fizzle out.
Happy New Year.
Warmest regards,
Jed Yoong
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written by monstercat, December 30, 2007 17:27:21
written by monstercat, December 30, 2007 17:27:21
there you go insulting our intelligence. why do you think they converted to be in line with the official religion?? Ha ha ha ha, it's so obvious the difference how Christians pray and Muslims pray. So please don flatter yourself in thinking that we were attracted to the official religion.
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 17:13:40
written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 17:13:40
mastercat wrote:
"Like we keep on telling you, Dayaks were pagans who “sembah manyuh tuhan, nuan understand?†If tuhan is still used to refer to a Unitarian God, wouldn’t that confuse them more. Oh, here comes another tuhan. What shall we name this tuhan??? Meaning, there wasn’t any word in Iban, Bidayuh, Kenyah, Kayan, Orang Ulu etc to denote Unitarian God. So adopt an obvious Arabic word that sounded very BM which complies, some more all ready for use in Bahasa Indon"
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The natives of Serawak and Sabah have no problem with undersatanding Tuhan. It is a BM word. But you copy from Indonesia because it is more appealing and convenient especially in making the natives think that it is in line with the "official religion" of Malaysia where we use to have the Azan and Doa calling the word Allah everyday. Furthermore you can blame it on foreign publication if things get very bad. But because BN central government has been sleeping soundly, especially the PM himself, you have a reprieve. And you are very lucky as election is coming and BN will do anything to win your vote.
If this happens in Singapore you have no chance. Singapore government doesn't buy peoples vote by duping them. They are honest and not afraid of making unpopular decision. Their past records have shown that you cannot juggle with words that affect other religion sensitivity. And Singapore adheres to a strict policy of separating religion and politics. Here in Malaysia is just the opposite. the BN is prepared to trade in their principle and integrity to win your vote.
"Like we keep on telling you, Dayaks were pagans who “sembah manyuh tuhan, nuan understand?†If tuhan is still used to refer to a Unitarian God, wouldn’t that confuse them more. Oh, here comes another tuhan. What shall we name this tuhan??? Meaning, there wasn’t any word in Iban, Bidayuh, Kenyah, Kayan, Orang Ulu etc to denote Unitarian God. So adopt an obvious Arabic word that sounded very BM which complies, some more all ready for use in Bahasa Indon"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The natives of Serawak and Sabah have no problem with undersatanding Tuhan. It is a BM word. But you copy from Indonesia because it is more appealing and convenient especially in making the natives think that it is in line with the "official religion" of Malaysia where we use to have the Azan and Doa calling the word Allah everyday. Furthermore you can blame it on foreign publication if things get very bad. But because BN central government has been sleeping soundly, especially the PM himself, you have a reprieve. And you are very lucky as election is coming and BN will do anything to win your vote.
If this happens in Singapore you have no chance. Singapore government doesn't buy peoples vote by duping them. They are honest and not afraid of making unpopular decision. Their past records have shown that you cannot juggle with words that affect other religion sensitivity. And Singapore adheres to a strict policy of separating religion and politics. Here in Malaysia is just the opposite. the BN is prepared to trade in their principle and integrity to win your vote.
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written by monstercat, December 30, 2007 16:37:05
written by monstercat, December 30, 2007 16:37:05
Well, now that I got Ms. Rohani Hitam's underlying concern I rest my case.
Ms. Rohani, we in Sarawak where Christians are majority live more harmoniously in respect of each other's beliefs. The minority Muslims are not marginalised.
And our missionary schools did not lure them, but they clamour to enter such schools. We Christians were not given the priority to study there. We gave them way, we did not cause chaos because our rights were taken. The Dayaks are the majority here but the Malays here think only Muslims should govern the state for protection of their race and faith. What about the nons????
Ms. Rohani, we in Sarawak where Christians are majority live more harmoniously in respect of each other's beliefs. The minority Muslims are not marginalised.
And our missionary schools did not lure them, but they clamour to enter such schools. We Christians were not given the priority to study there. We gave them way, we did not cause chaos because our rights were taken. The Dayaks are the majority here but the Malays here think only Muslims should govern the state for protection of their race and faith. What about the nons????
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written by monstercat, December 30, 2007 16:23:52
written by monstercat, December 30, 2007 16:23:52
And dear brother mimag2005,
My argument is not on the scriptures and the Christian candidate for the Prophet. My argument is that if they can base their truths on their holy book so can I. Why the double standards? Your beliefs and faith is yours to keep.
Thus, it proves that Unitarian God is not available in BM as Ms. Rohani Hitam confirms. Since the Indonesian Christians already have a translated bible, easy peesy for the Dayak in Sarawak to use.
And Ms. Rohani Hitam,
Like we keep on telling you, Dayaks were pagans who “sembah manyuh tuhan, nuan understand?†If tuhan is still used to refer to a Unitarian God, wouldn’t that confuse them more. Oh, here comes another tuhan. What shall we name this tuhan??? Meaning, there wasn’t any word in Iban, Bidayuh, Kenyah, Kayan, Orang Ulu etc to denote Unitarian God. So adopt an obvious Arabic word that sounded very BM which complies, some more all ready for use in Bahasa Indon.
And there you go again, accusing the Christians of duping the people who converted to Christianity. Your underlying message is – had the Christians not used the word “Allah†to preach to the natives in Sabah and Sarawak, they would have rightfully embraced Islam, because Allah rightfully belongs to Islam. So that is your argument.
My argument is not on the scriptures and the Christian candidate for the Prophet. My argument is that if they can base their truths on their holy book so can I. Why the double standards? Your beliefs and faith is yours to keep.
Thus, it proves that Unitarian God is not available in BM as Ms. Rohani Hitam confirms. Since the Indonesian Christians already have a translated bible, easy peesy for the Dayak in Sarawak to use.
And Ms. Rohani Hitam,
Like we keep on telling you, Dayaks were pagans who “sembah manyuh tuhan, nuan understand?†If tuhan is still used to refer to a Unitarian God, wouldn’t that confuse them more. Oh, here comes another tuhan. What shall we name this tuhan??? Meaning, there wasn’t any word in Iban, Bidayuh, Kenyah, Kayan, Orang Ulu etc to denote Unitarian God. So adopt an obvious Arabic word that sounded very BM which complies, some more all ready for use in Bahasa Indon.
And there you go again, accusing the Christians of duping the people who converted to Christianity. Your underlying message is – had the Christians not used the word “Allah†to preach to the natives in Sabah and Sarawak, they would have rightfully embraced Islam, because Allah rightfully belongs to Islam. So that is your argument.
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written by mimag2005, December 30, 2007 16:02:12
written by mimag2005, December 30, 2007 16:02:12
correction ...... So brother monstercat and my other likeminded sincere Christian brotherhood...
Have anyone of you heard of a Christian candidate that fulfilled this prophecy in this last
2000 years ???
Have anyone of you heard of a Christian candidate that fulfilled this prophecy in this last
2000 years ???
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 15:16:56
written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 15:16:56
Panca Indera wrote:
"Anyway the proof is in the pudding, ie. the Gomen has decided to retract its stand.
So much for being consistent. Yes! consistently making blunders.
For the Christians it is a great Moral victory nontheless".
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The BN will do anything to buy your votes. And if you think this is a moral victory, you are duped.
"Anyway the proof is in the pudding, ie. the Gomen has decided to retract its stand.
So much for being consistent. Yes! consistently making blunders.
For the Christians it is a great Moral victory nontheless".
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The BN will do anything to buy your votes. And if you think this is a moral victory, you are duped.
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 15:13:24
written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 15:13:24
Panca Indera wrote:
"In bahasa the word God is Tuhan not Allah"
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Very true. Then why do you change from Tuhan, 20 or 30 years ago, to Allah? Of course the Malay speaking Sabahans are confused because you duped them.
"In bahasa the word God is Tuhan not Allah"
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Very true. Then why do you change from Tuhan, 20 or 30 years ago, to Allah? Of course the Malay speaking Sabahans are confused because you duped them.
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 15:07:21
written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 15:07:21
monstercat wrote:
"-is there a word in BM for Unitarian God??"
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Allah is BM word for Unitarin God. We don't know that there are other God or Gods.
"-is there a word in BM for Unitarian God??"
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Allah is BM word for Unitarin God. We don't know that there are other God or Gods.
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 14:59:25
written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 14:59:25
samadz72 wrote:
Rohani (or other bloggers). Can you guys confirm whether Malay Bible has been circulated in Singapore? And if it does, what is the word they used for 'God'? That will be a very interesting information to find out.
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So far during my visit there I have not found any from the bookstores. Definitely there are copies printed in Bahasa Indonesia entered Singapore unnoticed. And if it is from Indonesia, just like Sabah and Sarawak, Allah is definitely mentioned.
There is this regulatory body, a council which looks into Islamic affairs. And there is this Committee which presides on matters related to religious harmony. If this matter is brought up to their attention by the Majlis the decision shall be just the opposite of what happened in Sabah. Can anyone correct me if I am wrong.
Rohani (or other bloggers). Can you guys confirm whether Malay Bible has been circulated in Singapore? And if it does, what is the word they used for 'God'? That will be a very interesting information to find out.
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So far during my visit there I have not found any from the bookstores. Definitely there are copies printed in Bahasa Indonesia entered Singapore unnoticed. And if it is from Indonesia, just like Sabah and Sarawak, Allah is definitely mentioned.
There is this regulatory body, a council which looks into Islamic affairs. And there is this Committee which presides on matters related to religious harmony. If this matter is brought up to their attention by the Majlis the decision shall be just the opposite of what happened in Sabah. Can anyone correct me if I am wrong.
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written by mimag2005, December 30, 2007 14:49:30
written by mimag2005, December 30, 2007 14:49:30
Hi monstercat,
Good evening !
......You refer to your Quran’s warning as the truth; thus, I may too refer to my Bible as the truth which says there will not be other prophets after Jesus, all others after Him are false prophets..
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Dear Brother Monstercat,
Like you, I too was taught and made to believe " BY WELL MEANING, LOVING & CARING RELATIVES " that after Jesus there will not be any other prophets. If anyone claim.. then he is a false prophet.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------ THIS IS NOT CORRECT !!!.......
...... " there is ANOTHER PROPHET AFTER JESUS "....
Pls refer to John 1 : 19/21, 25
...... And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What
then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.....
.... 25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?... "
So Dear Brother monstercat ... there is another Prophet after Jesus... Since last 2000 years i have not heard of a Christian candidate... Have you heard of one ???
Good evening !
......You refer to your Quran’s warning as the truth; thus, I may too refer to my Bible as the truth which says there will not be other prophets after Jesus, all others after Him are false prophets..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Brother Monstercat,
Like you, I too was taught and made to believe " BY WELL MEANING, LOVING & CARING RELATIVES " that after Jesus there will not be any other prophets. If anyone claim.. then he is a false prophet.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------ THIS IS NOT CORRECT !!!.......
...... " there is ANOTHER PROPHET AFTER JESUS "....
Pls refer to John 1 : 19/21, 25
...... And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What
then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.....
.... 25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?... "
So Dear Brother monstercat ... there is another Prophet after Jesus... Since last 2000 years i have not heard of a Christian candidate... Have you heard of one ???
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 14:45:28
written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 14:45:28
aryn wrote:
The Allah that I know is the God is Love, slow to anger and quick to forgive. The One Creator I know does not command anyone regardless of whatever you call yourself, to kill in the name of Allah for whatever reasons. Instead told us to 'love thy neighbour'. Not to submit them to your belief or subject them to pay tithes just because you don't belong to the same religion.
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I am sorry aryn, the God you mentioned is Jesus and not Allah. The Allah that we know is Yang Esa, the only one and not the son of the Father you pray to neither share the same element of the Holy Ghost.
Chritinity also propagates violent by condemning the non-belivers and command them to be thrown to hell. Deny this and I know you are ignorant of the Bible.
The Allah that I know is the God is Love, slow to anger and quick to forgive. The One Creator I know does not command anyone regardless of whatever you call yourself, to kill in the name of Allah for whatever reasons. Instead told us to 'love thy neighbour'. Not to submit them to your belief or subject them to pay tithes just because you don't belong to the same religion.
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I am sorry aryn, the God you mentioned is Jesus and not Allah. The Allah that we know is Yang Esa, the only one and not the son of the Father you pray to neither share the same element of the Holy Ghost.
Chritinity also propagates violent by condemning the non-belivers and command them to be thrown to hell. Deny this and I know you are ignorant of the Bible.
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written by Panca Indera, December 30, 2007 14:03:47
written by Panca Indera, December 30, 2007 14:03:47
Salam,
Dear Rohani and friends,
If you want to argue on your personal beliefs, please do so somewhere else and stop hogging this discussion.
The Christian Arabs used the word Allah for God.
The Christian Arabs used the name ISA for Jesus
The Christian Arabs use Roh Al something for the Holy Spirit(form Muslims its Gabriel the angle)
In bahasa the word God is Tuhan not Allah, but because Malays are generally confused about everything thats why they use the Arabic word Allah for God in they language, just like,Rohani binti Hitam when it should be Rohani anak perempuan Hitam because binti is a foreign word from the Arabs.Its not Bahasa.
No wonder the drive to use bahasa is never successful.
So if the Christians from East Malaysia(who speaks more bahasa than the west Malaysians) choose to use the word Allah to name their God, its within their rights and does not infringe the majority Malays rights as there is precedent in the usage in the Mid East.
Anyway the proof is in the pudding, ie. the Gomen has decided to retract its stand.
So much for being consistent. Yes! consistently making blunders.
For the Christians it is a great Moral victory nontheless.
Lets work together to create a better society(responsible,accountable,spiritual) than the present.
Salam
Dear Rohani and friends,
If you want to argue on your personal beliefs, please do so somewhere else and stop hogging this discussion.
The Christian Arabs used the word Allah for God.
The Christian Arabs used the name ISA for Jesus
The Christian Arabs use Roh Al something for the Holy Spirit(form Muslims its Gabriel the angle)
In bahasa the word God is Tuhan not Allah, but because Malays are generally confused about everything thats why they use the Arabic word Allah for God in they language, just like,Rohani binti Hitam when it should be Rohani anak perempuan Hitam because binti is a foreign word from the Arabs.Its not Bahasa.
No wonder the drive to use bahasa is never successful.
So if the Christians from East Malaysia(who speaks more bahasa than the west Malaysians) choose to use the word Allah to name their God, its within their rights and does not infringe the majority Malays rights as there is precedent in the usage in the Mid East.
Anyway the proof is in the pudding, ie. the Gomen has decided to retract its stand.
So much for being consistent. Yes! consistently making blunders.
For the Christians it is a great Moral victory nontheless.
Lets work together to create a better society(responsible,accountable,spiritual) than the present.
Salam
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written by shamadz72, December 30, 2007 13:53:46
"You try to do this in Singapore. You'll get a stern warning due to her tough religious harmony law. If you persist Singapore has the law to prosecute you and put you away. Don't mass up. Be focussed."
-----
Rohani (or other bloggers). Can you guys confirm whether Malay Bible has been circulated in Singapore? And if it does, what is the word they used for 'God'? That will be a very interesting information to find out.
written by shamadz72, December 30, 2007 13:53:46
"You try to do this in Singapore. You'll get a stern warning due to her tough religious harmony law. If you persist Singapore has the law to prosecute you and put you away. Don't mass up. Be focussed."
-----
Rohani (or other bloggers). Can you guys confirm whether Malay Bible has been circulated in Singapore? And if it does, what is the word they used for 'God'? That will be a very interesting information to find out.
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written by monstercat, December 30, 2007 11:33:44
written by monstercat, December 30, 2007 11:33:44
To Rohani Hitam:
There you go, you show your true nature saying to blame our own kind and not Islam. I didn't blame Islam so why did you start to defend it? The Bible also says to expel those who disbelieve. It is easy for you to say that it’s a matter of choice by the individual because you are protected by the man-made law enacted in this country. Reciprocate in respect, not in choice of life partner lah!!!! Yet I do not call you names for misinterpreting my writings. So please don’t start calling others idiots.
You seemed to feel you have the right to insinuate the Christians as conniving, deceitful, insincere, dishonest etc. You insult us and others, but others cannot insult you??? This is reciprocity at work, so fair is fair. You insult, you get insulted.
Don’t be silly asking us to call Jesus Christ by any other name when He already was named Jesus, duh!!!! Why should we substitute God with “Allah†when we pray in English? The English version Bible all printed God. The Chinese have accepted “Shang-ti†as “Allah†so, why do you ask for such a silly test just to proof the sincerity of the Christians? Our BM is a relatively new language compared to English and Mandarin and Tamil – is there a word in BM for Unitarian God??
Don’t forget, English services came first until the missionaries saw the need for BM to cater to the Dayaks NOT THE MALAYS IN SARAWAK. The Dayaks were pagans and have many “tuhanâ€Â. Obviously there didn’t exist a word in Iban, Bidayuh, Kayan, Orang Ulu, Kenyah etc that denotes Unitarian Tuhan. So easy, just follow the Indon Christians. Ooooh..... the Christians are out to get you the Muslims. Everyone else is bad, the Muslims are the good ones. So, your many Christian friends – did they try to mislead you or deceive you to convert??? And you attended mass – did the church lure you? Did the Christians hoodwinked you into going?
There you go, you show your true nature saying to blame our own kind and not Islam. I didn't blame Islam so why did you start to defend it? The Bible also says to expel those who disbelieve. It is easy for you to say that it’s a matter of choice by the individual because you are protected by the man-made law enacted in this country. Reciprocate in respect, not in choice of life partner lah!!!! Yet I do not call you names for misinterpreting my writings. So please don’t start calling others idiots.
You seemed to feel you have the right to insinuate the Christians as conniving, deceitful, insincere, dishonest etc. You insult us and others, but others cannot insult you??? This is reciprocity at work, so fair is fair. You insult, you get insulted.
Don’t be silly asking us to call Jesus Christ by any other name when He already was named Jesus, duh!!!! Why should we substitute God with “Allah†when we pray in English? The English version Bible all printed God. The Chinese have accepted “Shang-ti†as “Allah†so, why do you ask for such a silly test just to proof the sincerity of the Christians? Our BM is a relatively new language compared to English and Mandarin and Tamil – is there a word in BM for Unitarian God??
Don’t forget, English services came first until the missionaries saw the need for BM to cater to the Dayaks NOT THE MALAYS IN SARAWAK. The Dayaks were pagans and have many “tuhanâ€Â. Obviously there didn’t exist a word in Iban, Bidayuh, Kayan, Orang Ulu, Kenyah etc that denotes Unitarian Tuhan. So easy, just follow the Indon Christians. Ooooh..... the Christians are out to get you the Muslims. Everyone else is bad, the Muslims are the good ones. So, your many Christian friends – did they try to mislead you or deceive you to convert??? And you attended mass – did the church lure you? Did the Christians hoodwinked you into going?
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written by monstercat, December 30, 2007 10:42:11
written by monstercat, December 30, 2007 10:42:11
To: Kamarudin Awang
Oh yes, very eloquent Mr. Kamarudin, calling us kafirs. We kafirs will use all means to mislead you the Muslims. That’s how your mind works. Kafirs Christians are frauds, cheats, deceivers etc. But Mr. Kamarudin, why did you attend a Christian Aided School? No other schools near your house???
In Sarawak, the missionary schools have been swamped with you Muslims. The missionary schools did not lure them or STRATEGISE so that they will enrol in such schools. It was because of their high performance and good quality education that draws people to them. Sooooo, were you terpedaya dengan dakyah-dakyah penganut Christian then???
You refer to your Quran’s warning as the truth; thus, I may too refer to my Bible as the truth which says there will not be other prophets after Jesus, all others after Him are false prophets. Oh yes, you will say the Bible is hogwash because it’s been amended, edited, modified etc, not original from God unlike Quran. That's another issue which before you take it up, you should ask why were editions made.
Oh yes, very eloquent Mr. Kamarudin, calling us kafirs. We kafirs will use all means to mislead you the Muslims. That’s how your mind works. Kafirs Christians are frauds, cheats, deceivers etc. But Mr. Kamarudin, why did you attend a Christian Aided School? No other schools near your house???
In Sarawak, the missionary schools have been swamped with you Muslims. The missionary schools did not lure them or STRATEGISE so that they will enrol in such schools. It was because of their high performance and good quality education that draws people to them. Sooooo, were you terpedaya dengan dakyah-dakyah penganut Christian then???
You refer to your Quran’s warning as the truth; thus, I may too refer to my Bible as the truth which says there will not be other prophets after Jesus, all others after Him are false prophets. Oh yes, you will say the Bible is hogwash because it’s been amended, edited, modified etc, not original from God unlike Quran. That's another issue which before you take it up, you should ask why were editions made.
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written by aryn, December 30, 2007 07:31:23
written by aryn, December 30, 2007 07:31:23
The Allah that I know is the God is Love, slow to anger and quick to forgive. The One Creator I know does not command anyone regardless of whatever you call yourself, to kill in the name of Allah for whatever reasons. Instead told us to 'love thy neighbour'. Not to submit them to your belief or subject them to pay tithes just because you don't belong to the same religion.
The 10 commandments is a good principle/guidance for all who loves God.
Peace upon all.
p/s for those who wish to differ, by all means differ till the cows come home. Happy new year.
The 10 commandments is a good principle/guidance for all who loves God.
Peace upon all.
p/s for those who wish to differ, by all means differ till the cows come home. Happy new year.
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written by wongnoball, December 30, 2007 06:26:36
written by wongnoball, December 30, 2007 06:26:36
Quick! Quick! Another article, Allah is not the monopoly of Muslims, written by Haji Mustapha Ong in Malaysia Today.
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 05:01:35
written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 05:01:35
cm2121 and others,
I do not wish to continue this debate. It is going on circles. The questions and issues I already addressed before resurfaced again and again and also by different person.
I just want to make myself clear. If you think Allah is universal and not a Malay or Arabic word, start using it consistently in every language you conduct. With this I hope the Authority is convinced that you are sincere. Don't lie that the word has been used long, long time ago. You adopted the Malay version of the Injil from Indonesia and the word Tuhan was only started to be use during Suharto's era, not more than 30 yrs ago. The word Allah in the Bahasa Indonesia version surfaced more recently.
You must know that Allah is sacred to Muslims as that is the tradition. The Christian tradition is sealed in AD 327 AD. You go back to your tradition of "Our Lord, Jesus Christ, Our Father" You may wish to continue with Bapa, Padre, Isa and any other languge that you perceive appropriate. If you persist to continue with Allah you must accept the consequences, not necessarily violent but very strong objection both legaly and politically. I am no supporter of UMNO or BN. I am a Muslim who represent the interest of everybody, including Christianity.
I do not wish to continue this debate. It is going on circles. The questions and issues I already addressed before resurfaced again and again and also by different person.
I just want to make myself clear. If you think Allah is universal and not a Malay or Arabic word, start using it consistently in every language you conduct. With this I hope the Authority is convinced that you are sincere. Don't lie that the word has been used long, long time ago. You adopted the Malay version of the Injil from Indonesia and the word Tuhan was only started to be use during Suharto's era, not more than 30 yrs ago. The word Allah in the Bahasa Indonesia version surfaced more recently.
You must know that Allah is sacred to Muslims as that is the tradition. The Christian tradition is sealed in AD 327 AD. You go back to your tradition of "Our Lord, Jesus Christ, Our Father" You may wish to continue with Bapa, Padre, Isa and any other languge that you perceive appropriate. If you persist to continue with Allah you must accept the consequences, not necessarily violent but very strong objection both legaly and politically. I am no supporter of UMNO or BN. I am a Muslim who represent the interest of everybody, including Christianity.
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written by mimag2005, December 30, 2007 04:25:58
written by mimag2005, December 30, 2007 04:25:58
To monstercat, cm2121 & Rohani Hitam,
Hi !
Thank you for bringing back sanity & respect to this forum.
Argue by all means but... with intellect & not emotions.
Got to go, catch up later.
Good weekend !
Hi !
Thank you for bringing back sanity & respect to this forum.
Argue by all means but... with intellect & not emotions.
Got to go, catch up later.
Good weekend !
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 03:46:23
written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 03:46:23
cm2121 quoted a Sarawakian Malaysiakini reader:
"Growing up in a Christian longhouse in the 60s and 70s, the name ‘God the Father’ that I came to know was ‘Allah Bapa’ or simply ‘Tuhan Allah’ or ‘Allah’. I had no idea that Muslims also called their God ‘Allah’.
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Yes because you are duped. The corect word supposed to be "Bapak, Anak dan Ruh Kudus" Allah is exclusively used for Unitarian God beleivers and not the Trinitarian God beleiver. Since the decision by the Council of Necea in 327 AD, the trinitarian Pauline Church was accepted against the Unitarian Church and the word "The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost" was blessed in every prayers. Why the churches in Sarawak and Sabah have stopped using them? Ask them.
"Growing up in a Christian longhouse in the 60s and 70s, the name ‘God the Father’ that I came to know was ‘Allah Bapa’ or simply ‘Tuhan Allah’ or ‘Allah’. I had no idea that Muslims also called their God ‘Allah’.
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Yes because you are duped. The corect word supposed to be "Bapak, Anak dan Ruh Kudus" Allah is exclusively used for Unitarian God beleivers and not the Trinitarian God beleiver. Since the decision by the Council of Necea in 327 AD, the trinitarian Pauline Church was accepted against the Unitarian Church and the word "The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost" was blessed in every prayers. Why the churches in Sarawak and Sabah have stopped using them? Ask them.
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 03:24:50
written by Rohani Hitam, December 30, 2007 03:24:50
mimag2005,
You are right. Better spare my energy than to entertain those idiots who kept on repeating the same thing. This Fart Fart Wah farts everywhere and everything that spew out from his ass condemning the Malays and the Muslims. He got a big problem with his dilated ass.
This monstercat mentioned about the feelings of non-Muslims if any one of their members has to convert to Islam to marry a Muslim partner. I can understand such losses but this is a matter of choice by the individual and not me or you nor the Islamic Authority. They should blame their own kind and not Islam. What is there to reciprocate. Life partner is a question of choice and not reciprocity.
I kept on telling them that only recently during Suharto's time that the Indonesian Christians used the word Tuhan and eventually they get bold to change it to Allah. Christians in East Malaysia follow suit. And all these idiots kept on harping that they used Allah since a "very long time" Since when? Since Christianity stepped in Malaysia or even North Borneo? Since their forefathers stepped on the land?
All these talks on the origin of the word Allah became such an issue that many try to become historians but failed to see the spirit and the application of the use. Some say Arab but it is actually Hebrew. But some say the name has existed before Christianity. But whatever it is, East Malaysian only adopted the word in the late 80's or later. And they got all the arguements to say that it is universal and freedom of choice and speech. Well if they want to than be it. And if they think that it is not exclusive to Islam, then use it in all the prayers including those conducted other then Malay. But they are silent. Yes they are silent because they fear that if they use Allah to their English or Chinese speaking fellow Christians they get hell. That shows that their fight for the word "Allah" is exclisively Malay speaking Sabahans and not universal. All this crap is nothing new to me as I have travelled to East Malaysia and Indonesia to do my study on Comparative Reilgion. It is the same lame excuse.
You are right. Better spare my energy than to entertain those idiots who kept on repeating the same thing. This Fart Fart Wah farts everywhere and everything that spew out from his ass condemning the Malays and the Muslims. He got a big problem with his dilated ass.
This monstercat mentioned about the feelings of non-Muslims if any one of their members has to convert to Islam to marry a Muslim partner. I can understand such losses but this is a matter of choice by the individual and not me or you nor the Islamic Authority. They should blame their own kind and not Islam. What is there to reciprocate. Life partner is a question of choice and not reciprocity.
I kept on telling them that only recently during Suharto's time that the Indonesian Christians used the word Tuhan and eventually they get bold to change it to Allah. Christians in East Malaysia follow suit. And all these idiots kept on harping that they used Allah since a "very long time" Since when? Since Christianity stepped in Malaysia or even North Borneo? Since their forefathers stepped on the land?
All these talks on the origin of the word Allah became such an issue that many try to become historians but failed to see the spirit and the application of the use. Some say Arab but it is actually Hebrew. But some say the name has existed before Christianity. But whatever it is, East Malaysian only adopted the word in the late 80's or later. And they got all the arguements to say that it is universal and freedom of choice and speech. Well if they want to than be it. And if they think that it is not exclusive to Islam, then use it in all the prayers including those conducted other then Malay. But they are silent. Yes they are silent because they fear that if they use Allah to their English or Chinese speaking fellow Christians they get hell. That shows that their fight for the word "Allah" is exclisively Malay speaking Sabahans and not universal. All this crap is nothing new to me as I have travelled to East Malaysia and Indonesia to do my study on Comparative Reilgion. It is the same lame excuse.
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written by cm2121, December 30, 2007 03:13:17
written by cm2121, December 30, 2007 03:13:17
I want to share another article contributed by a Sarawakian Malaysiakini reader. Perhaps this can shed some light into this matter from our (East Malaysian Bumiputera Christians) perspective:
"Growing up in a Christian longhouse in the 60s and 70s, the name ‘God the Father’ that I came to know was ‘Allah Bapa’ or simply ‘Tuhan Allah’ or ‘Allah’. I had no idea that Muslims also called their God ‘Allah’.
It is preposterous for people to suggest that Christians' use of the word ‘Allah’ is a new phenomenon meant to confuse Muslims. We use the word ‘Allah’ because we use Bahasa Indonesia in our church services and the Indonesian bible which refers to God the as Allah, having been translated from the Arabic bible. As some of our esteemed readers have enlightened us, Allah is simply the Arabic term for God. As the Indonesian bible was translated into many Borneo and Orang Asli languages, ‘Allah’ is the term used to refer to God in our churches.
Many of our older folks only know of God as Allah because they are uneducated in other languages. For the government to tell us that we can no longer use the term is indeed to confuse them. Look who is confusing who.
As for us, younger and educated Christians, we could not care less. God is God no matter what language you use and no matter what name he is called. We find it very insulting for others to tell us what we can call our God. It is oppressive and it violates our human rights. At the end of the day, God is bigger than all creation. His name does not need to be "protected" by a bunch of narrow-minded bigots."
"Growing up in a Christian longhouse in the 60s and 70s, the name ‘God the Father’ that I came to know was ‘Allah Bapa’ or simply ‘Tuhan Allah’ or ‘Allah’. I had no idea that Muslims also called their God ‘Allah’.
It is preposterous for people to suggest that Christians' use of the word ‘Allah’ is a new phenomenon meant to confuse Muslims. We use the word ‘Allah’ because we use Bahasa Indonesia in our church services and the Indonesian bible which refers to God the as Allah, having been translated from the Arabic bible. As some of our esteemed readers have enlightened us, Allah is simply the Arabic term for God. As the Indonesian bible was translated into many Borneo and Orang Asli languages, ‘Allah’ is the term used to refer to God in our churches.
Many of our older folks only know of God as Allah because they are uneducated in other languages. For the government to tell us that we can no longer use the term is indeed to confuse them. Look who is confusing who.
As for us, younger and educated Christians, we could not care less. God is God no matter what language you use and no matter what name he is called. We find it very insulting for others to tell us what we can call our God. It is oppressive and it violates our human rights. At the end of the day, God is bigger than all creation. His name does not need to be "protected" by a bunch of narrow-minded bigots."
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written by cm2121, December 30, 2007 01:46:04
written by cm2121, December 30, 2007 01:46:04
I want to quote one contributor to Malaysia kini (Tanak Wagu):
"This controversy reflects the ignorance of West Malaysian Muslims of the situation in East Malaysia. The government too seems to be condoning this ignorance to the extent of forcing the church to suit this ignorance. Bumiputera Christians in Sabah and Sarawak are deeply offended by this ignorance. As much as the Malays in West Malaysia hold on dearly to their religion, the Christian bumiputera here cherish theirs too..."
Rohani is talking like there are no Malay speaking Bumiputera Christians in Sabah and Sarawak. This shows her ignorance of the situation in East Malaysia. We East Malaysian Bumiputera consider this an insult... after 50 years of independence, a majority of West Malaysian Muslims are ignorant of this fact.
Let me quote the reader again: "Christians in Sabah and Sarawak have been using the word ‘Allah’ for a very long time. In fact, Bahasa Malaysia has been used in Christianity long before Malaysia came into being. The Seventh Day Adventist Church had pastors from Indonesia who would conduct sermons in Bahasa Indonesia, thus the word ‘Allah’ was frequently used.
Malay became the medium of instruction in Sabah and Sarawak when the Education Act 1961 was extended to these states. This led to a decline in English proficiency among Sabahan and Sarawakian Christians resulting in a greater use of BM in Christianity"
"This controversy reflects the ignorance of West Malaysian Muslims of the situation in East Malaysia. The government too seems to be condoning this ignorance to the extent of forcing the church to suit this ignorance. Bumiputera Christians in Sabah and Sarawak are deeply offended by this ignorance. As much as the Malays in West Malaysia hold on dearly to their religion, the Christian bumiputera here cherish theirs too..."
Rohani is talking like there are no Malay speaking Bumiputera Christians in Sabah and Sarawak. This shows her ignorance of the situation in East Malaysia. We East Malaysian Bumiputera consider this an insult... after 50 years of independence, a majority of West Malaysian Muslims are ignorant of this fact.
Let me quote the reader again: "Christians in Sabah and Sarawak have been using the word ‘Allah’ for a very long time. In fact, Bahasa Malaysia has been used in Christianity long before Malaysia came into being. The Seventh Day Adventist Church had pastors from Indonesia who would conduct sermons in Bahasa Indonesia, thus the word ‘Allah’ was frequently used.
Malay became the medium of instruction in Sabah and Sarawak when the Education Act 1961 was extended to these states. This led to a decline in English proficiency among Sabahan and Sarawakian Christians resulting in a greater use of BM in Christianity"
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written by monstercat, December 29, 2007 22:58:51
written by monstercat, December 29, 2007 22:58:51
Rohani Hitam feels that it is coniving of the Christians to lure the Muslims to convert to Christianity. What do you Rohani think the Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and other people of other religions feel when one of their people have to convert to marry a Muslim they love? You are too immune to the tolerance and respect given you by non-Muslims that you feel you do not have to reciprocate.
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written by monstercat, December 29, 2007 22:40:28
written by monstercat, December 29, 2007 22:40:28
written by mimag2005, December 27, 2007 | 15:33:15
According to The Christian Church Elders , Lord Jesus Christ was sent to this world to save all MANKIND ! ( which include Gentiles (outside of House of Israel), Indians, Chinese, Malays, Asians, eskimos... YOU NAME IT )
Let us ask Lord Jesus Christ was he sent for such an assignment. This was his reply !
Matthew Ch 15 V 22/24....And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him,
saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew Ch 10 V 5/6.. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not; But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
So Miss Rohani, cc Jedyoong (u r welcome to give your piece )
Following questions need to be sincerely answered.
01) Besides the 12 Israeli Tribes, which other community qualify to be " The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel " ?
02) Our Saviour qualified his mission for " a particular community ".(So did earlier Israelite prophets).
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Dear mimag2005
You should have continued with Matthew Ch 15 V 25/28; and you failed to mention Matthew Ch 12 V 17/21.
To your questions:-
(1) there is no other lost sheep of the house of Israel. The Gentiles (non-Jew) were not from the house of Israel. But because the Gentiles began to have faith in the Word of God through Jesus Christ, they were deemed worthy to be saved. Despite the miracles Jesus did, the chosen race rejected Him because He did not adhere to traditions of the previous prophets, like working on Sabbath, even for healing the sick.
(2) there are many verses that indicate the inclusion of the Gentiles; by the way, who comprises the multitudes? Are you sure the multitudes were entirely Jews? If we must stick to whom our Saviour qualified his mission for, why was Jesus preaching to the multitudes?
Anyway, I’m not a learned Christian but these are my input to your questions. At the end of the day, Christians’ mission is to convert non-believers. The Muslims mission is the same. As Rohani Hitam insisted “Christians see benefit in using the term Allah as it may attract Muslims or at least to create an intersts among the Muslims. Christians have long trying hard to attract conversion as the message to spread the religion among the Gentiles is a duty to all Christiansâ€Â. So to insinuate that the Christians are scheming to convert Muslims by using the word “Allah†is equivalent to the Muslim govt enacting the law that a non-Muslim must convert to Islam to marry a Muslim. Sorry, not an equivalent but by making it a law, those in love are forced to convert. And many have converted without knowing or loving the religion. Thus it is obvious that they are also out to get as many numbers as they can, but to the point of forfeiting the honest and heartfelt love for the religion. It doesn’t matter whether these converts really know and love the religion to heart, as long as they are additional Muslims in our population, bottomline.
According to The Christian Church Elders , Lord Jesus Christ was sent to this world to save all MANKIND ! ( which include Gentiles (outside of House of Israel), Indians, Chinese, Malays, Asians, eskimos... YOU NAME IT )
Let us ask Lord Jesus Christ was he sent for such an assignment. This was his reply !
Matthew Ch 15 V 22/24....And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him,
saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew Ch 10 V 5/6.. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not; But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
So Miss Rohani, cc Jedyoong (u r welcome to give your piece )
Following questions need to be sincerely answered.
01) Besides the 12 Israeli Tribes, which other community qualify to be " The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel " ?
02) Our Saviour qualified his mission for " a particular community ".(So did earlier Israelite prophets).
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Dear mimag2005
You should have continued with Matthew Ch 15 V 25/28; and you failed to mention Matthew Ch 12 V 17/21.
To your questions:-
(1) there is no other lost sheep of the house of Israel. The Gentiles (non-Jew) were not from the house of Israel. But because the Gentiles began to have faith in the Word of God through Jesus Christ, they were deemed worthy to be saved. Despite the miracles Jesus did, the chosen race rejected Him because He did not adhere to traditions of the previous prophets, like working on Sabbath, even for healing the sick.
(2) there are many verses that indicate the inclusion of the Gentiles; by the way, who comprises the multitudes? Are you sure the multitudes were entirely Jews? If we must stick to whom our Saviour qualified his mission for, why was Jesus preaching to the multitudes?
Anyway, I’m not a learned Christian but these are my input to your questions. At the end of the day, Christians’ mission is to convert non-believers. The Muslims mission is the same. As Rohani Hitam insisted “Christians see benefit in using the term Allah as it may attract Muslims or at least to create an intersts among the Muslims. Christians have long trying hard to attract conversion as the message to spread the religion among the Gentiles is a duty to all Christiansâ€Â. So to insinuate that the Christians are scheming to convert Muslims by using the word “Allah†is equivalent to the Muslim govt enacting the law that a non-Muslim must convert to Islam to marry a Muslim. Sorry, not an equivalent but by making it a law, those in love are forced to convert. And many have converted without knowing or loving the religion. Thus it is obvious that they are also out to get as many numbers as they can, but to the point of forfeiting the honest and heartfelt love for the religion. It doesn’t matter whether these converts really know and love the religion to heart, as long as they are additional Muslims in our population, bottomline.
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written by mimag2005, December 29, 2007 22:34:35
written by mimag2005, December 29, 2007 22:34:35
correction,,, probably the hysterical kind.... yet unashamely claiming to have the holy ghost ... uh!!
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written by mimag2005, December 29, 2007 22:21:58
written by mimag2005, December 29, 2007 22:21:58
Hi Rohani, spare your energies. just ignore the latest response coming from an uncouth vulgar blogger. This zealots,, i dont know what kind of spirit has taken possession. probably the hysterical kind.
An insult to their upbringing.
Please i request you, do not give such lunatics an audience.!
An insult to their upbringing.
Please i request you, do not give such lunatics an audience.!
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written by Fart Fart Wah, December 29, 2007 17:55:33
written by Fart Fart Wah, December 29, 2007 17:55:33
Rohani said..
THAT MAKES THE WORD ALLAH NOT APPLICABLE TO CHRISTIANS. THE ALLAH WE PRAYED TO IS NOT THE "ALLAH" YOU SAY IN YOUR SERMON IN MALAY. WE ARE NOT PRAYING TO THE SAME GOD. WE'VE GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LORD JESUS YOU CALLED GOD. YOU ARE DIFFERENT. DON'T TRY TO GET NEAR US. WE ARE NOT ONE OF YOU NEITHER WE PREACH THE SAME RELIGION OR GOD. -
This is total denial..blind denial..you must go back to history...
Are you denying history??...yah..the same as you claim that the first man to sail round the world was a Malay...and we send a passenger to space..??..after 3 months of intensive training even you Rohani can go to space..tapi mesti ada chance...first Malay woman)
some Malays in Malaysia .."macam katak dibawah tempurong"..we tell them the "Allah is a coined word before the Koran ..just like yahweh for the JEWS was invented they do not want to see..they say this is a different Allah???
Funny so..so we have Allah 1 and Allah 2...very soon another Rohani will tell us there is another Allah 3..
Islam has more than 100 names for the Holy Allah..sorry nothing of this can fit him...even a 1000 zillion names you give him ..no it does not fit...you see ..HE NEVER GAVE HIS NAME EVEN TO MUSA..
MUHAMMAD..BORROWED THIS NAME FROM THE cHRISTIANS AND OTHER ARABS WHO CALLED gOD AS aLLAH DURING THAT TIME..( This in itself will tell you that the name the angel gave is also suspect..for if it is not the same Allah..then the angel Gabriel is another liar???are calling the Angel Gabriel a liar???why didn't he give a new name???????
Your father and mother gave you a name..Rohani..(they own you) ..you cannot name the Almighty..for you cannot own HIM....so no one owns Allah..stupid..or Tuhan..or God..or the Absolute..or Providence..or yahweh..or Jehovah...or..the 100 names in Islam...
sorry to disappoint you....claiming Allah to be a Muslim is also stupid...you have another problem..Is he A Taliban Allah?? or an AL queda Allah? or a Sunni Allah or Shite Allah??? since you are also fighting and killing one another in the name of Allah..YESTERDAY...BENAZIR WAS KILLED..SO WHICH ALLAH
INSPIRED THIS IDIOT TO KILL???
WHICH ALLAH???? 1? 2? 3? 4?
IF YOU ARE LAZY TO DO SERIOUS STUDY..DO NOT BURY YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND...
cHRISTANS DO NOT WANT TO CONVERT MUSLIMS IN MALaYSIA... CANNOT..the law!!!
MUSLIMS HERE ARE BORN MALAYS..NOT MALAYS BORN MUSLIMS...THAT IS WHY ..THEY CANNOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE..
IF YOU ARE NOT AFRAID OF BEING CONVERTED WHY HIDE UNDER A LAW??? iT IS A CHALLENGE TO REMAIN A MUSLIM IN OTHeR COUNTRIES YET THEY REMAIN MUSLIMS..HERE THEY HAVE TO BE PROTECTED( it may show that Malay muslims are weak)..SORRY KEPT IN THE KANDANG..
..NOT BY THE MALAYS..BUT BY THE MUFTIS AND THE POLITICIANS BECAUSE THEY ARE AFRAID IF THE MALAYS ARE FREE TO CHOOSE THEY WILL LOOSE THEIR POWER. bUT I CAN BET WITH YOU..EVEN IF THE LAW RELAXES..NOT MANY MUSLIMS WILL LEAVE THE RELIGION.( EVEN IN Indonesia the largest Muslim country this is not so).for if faith is properly grounded then one should not leave the faith..
Half the muftis and the politicians who are MUSLIMs are a shame...they do not practice..they are like the matderoses...if Muslims leave the faith..blame them..
As for the name Allah..do some homework..do not be lazy..and bury your head in the sand..
THAT MAKES THE WORD ALLAH NOT APPLICABLE TO CHRISTIANS. THE ALLAH WE PRAYED TO IS NOT THE "ALLAH" YOU SAY IN YOUR SERMON IN MALAY. WE ARE NOT PRAYING TO THE SAME GOD. WE'VE GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LORD JESUS YOU CALLED GOD. YOU ARE DIFFERENT. DON'T TRY TO GET NEAR US. WE ARE NOT ONE OF YOU NEITHER WE PREACH THE SAME RELIGION OR GOD. -
This is total denial..blind denial..you must go back to history...
Are you denying history??...yah..the same as you claim that the first man to sail round the world was a Malay...and we send a passenger to space..??..after 3 months of intensive training even you Rohani can go to space..tapi mesti ada chance...first Malay woman)
some Malays in Malaysia .."macam katak dibawah tempurong"..we tell them the "Allah is a coined word before the Koran ..just like yahweh for the JEWS was invented they do not want to see..they say this is a different Allah???
Funny so..so we have Allah 1 and Allah 2...very soon another Rohani will tell us there is another Allah 3..
Islam has more than 100 names for the Holy Allah..sorry nothing of this can fit him...even a 1000 zillion names you give him ..no it does not fit...you see ..HE NEVER GAVE HIS NAME EVEN TO MUSA..
MUHAMMAD..BORROWED THIS NAME FROM THE cHRISTIANS AND OTHER ARABS WHO CALLED gOD AS aLLAH DURING THAT TIME..( This in itself will tell you that the name the angel gave is also suspect..for if it is not the same Allah..then the angel Gabriel is another liar???are calling the Angel Gabriel a liar???why didn't he give a new name???????
Your father and mother gave you a name..Rohani..(they own you) ..you cannot name the Almighty..for you cannot own HIM....so no one owns Allah..stupid..or Tuhan..or God..or the Absolute..or Providence..or yahweh..or Jehovah...or..the 100 names in Islam...
sorry to disappoint you....claiming Allah to be a Muslim is also stupid...you have another problem..Is he A Taliban Allah?? or an AL queda Allah? or a Sunni Allah or Shite Allah??? since you are also fighting and killing one another in the name of Allah..YESTERDAY...BENAZIR WAS KILLED..SO WHICH ALLAH
INSPIRED THIS IDIOT TO KILL???
WHICH ALLAH???? 1? 2? 3? 4?
IF YOU ARE LAZY TO DO SERIOUS STUDY..DO NOT BURY YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND...
cHRISTANS DO NOT WANT TO CONVERT MUSLIMS IN MALaYSIA... CANNOT..the law!!!
MUSLIMS HERE ARE BORN MALAYS..NOT MALAYS BORN MUSLIMS...THAT IS WHY ..THEY CANNOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE..
IF YOU ARE NOT AFRAID OF BEING CONVERTED WHY HIDE UNDER A LAW??? iT IS A CHALLENGE TO REMAIN A MUSLIM IN OTHeR COUNTRIES YET THEY REMAIN MUSLIMS..HERE THEY HAVE TO BE PROTECTED( it may show that Malay muslims are weak)..SORRY KEPT IN THE KANDANG..
..NOT BY THE MALAYS..BUT BY THE MUFTIS AND THE POLITICIANS BECAUSE THEY ARE AFRAID IF THE MALAYS ARE FREE TO CHOOSE THEY WILL LOOSE THEIR POWER. bUT I CAN BET WITH YOU..EVEN IF THE LAW RELAXES..NOT MANY MUSLIMS WILL LEAVE THE RELIGION.( EVEN IN Indonesia the largest Muslim country this is not so).for if faith is properly grounded then one should not leave the faith..
Half the muftis and the politicians who are MUSLIMs are a shame...they do not practice..they are like the matderoses...if Muslims leave the faith..blame them..
As for the name Allah..do some homework..do not be lazy..and bury your head in the sand..
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written by stchin, December 29, 2007 12:46:40
written by stchin, December 29, 2007 12:46:40
rohani, in 1966-69, i had a pupil of your name too (!?) from padang rengas, kuala kangsar, 'one in a million' chance if you are the one !! the ccc is 'canning community centre' in canning garden, ipoh, though set up by a church, it is open to public of races and religions.
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written by mimag2005, December 29, 2007 10:23:14
written by mimag2005, December 29, 2007 10:23:14
correction.... for sake of peace and sanity......
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 29, 2007 10:22:05
written by Rohani Hitam, December 29, 2007 10:22:05
mimag2005 wrote:
If the Trinitarians somehow not able to breakaway from the shackles of " Trinity " then for sake of "peace " pls revert to Father, Son and Holy Ghost a.k.a. " Bapa, Anak dan Ruh Kudus ".
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No, they won't use it because they know it won't attract the Muslims. So they have this device of using "Allah" Infact many churches have stopped the use of "God the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost" And unless agitated, the clergyman don't even mention about Trinity as widely during the medievel times.
If the Trinitarians somehow not able to breakaway from the shackles of " Trinity " then for sake of "peace " pls revert to Father, Son and Holy Ghost a.k.a. " Bapa, Anak dan Ruh Kudus ".
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No, they won't use it because they know it won't attract the Muslims. So they have this device of using "Allah" Infact many churches have stopped the use of "God the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost" And unless agitated, the clergyman don't even mention about Trinity as widely during the medievel times.
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written by mimag2005, December 29, 2007 10:06:55
written by mimag2005, December 29, 2007 10:06:55
If the Trinitarians somehow not able to breakaway from the shackles of " Trinity " then for sake of "peace " pls revert to Father, Son and Holy Ghost a.k.a. " Bapa, Anak dan Ruh Kudus ".
Amen !
Amen !
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written by mimag2005, December 29, 2007 09:51:47
written by mimag2005, December 29, 2007 09:51:47
Dear Rohani & cm2121,
To the Muslims and other Unitarian Faiths ALLAH is ONE, ABSOLUTE, INDIVISIBLE !
In the Koran ALLAH makes HIS ONENESS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR!
To the followers of Pauline Christianity, their version of Almighty God's " ONENESS " is 3 parts. The Doctrine " TRINITY " clearly means THREE but through indoctrination are PERCEIVED, UNDERSTOOD AND DIGESTED AS ONE. It is also called " mystery ".
So if the Trinitarians are willing to accept the "ONENESS" of ALLAH AS ONE, ABSOLUTE, INDIVISIBLE and not 3 parts, there wont be such heated arguments.
Cheers !
To the Muslims and other Unitarian Faiths ALLAH is ONE, ABSOLUTE, INDIVISIBLE !
In the Koran ALLAH makes HIS ONENESS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR!
To the followers of Pauline Christianity, their version of Almighty God's " ONENESS " is 3 parts. The Doctrine " TRINITY " clearly means THREE but through indoctrination are PERCEIVED, UNDERSTOOD AND DIGESTED AS ONE. It is also called " mystery ".
So if the Trinitarians are willing to accept the "ONENESS" of ALLAH AS ONE, ABSOLUTE, INDIVISIBLE and not 3 parts, there wont be such heated arguments.
Cheers !
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 29, 2007 09:07:31
written by Rohani Hitam, December 29, 2007 09:07:31
stchin,
If it's purely entertainment and meeting society that's OK. But if along the way people start to sing or making speeches about religion, the answer is no. As I said I am tired of this pretention. Don't try me.
If it's purely entertainment and meeting society that's OK. But if along the way people start to sing or making speeches about religion, the answer is no. As I said I am tired of this pretention. Don't try me.
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 29, 2007 09:01:45
written by Rohani Hitam, December 29, 2007 09:01:45
cm2121,
You have hijacked the word because why are you using it now and not when your forefathers or when Christianity arrived in the land of Malaysia? And you have the cheeck to claim it when we have used it since the the 14th century.
Come on lets be gentlemen enough to admit that it serves some purpose and not that bloody excuse of universal language and exclusive right of every human being.
You don't have to argue to the point where individual right is involved. Tt's more of ethics and respect of other religion.
You want to use it - be it. But how many individual feelings you have hurt. Is that what Christianity teach you?
You have hijacked the word because why are you using it now and not when your forefathers or when Christianity arrived in the land of Malaysia? And you have the cheeck to claim it when we have used it since the the 14th century.
Come on lets be gentlemen enough to admit that it serves some purpose and not that bloody excuse of universal language and exclusive right of every human being.
You don't have to argue to the point where individual right is involved. Tt's more of ethics and respect of other religion.
You want to use it - be it. But how many individual feelings you have hurt. Is that what Christianity teach you?
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written by cm2121, December 29, 2007 08:21:38
written by cm2121, December 29, 2007 08:21:38
Correction"
...And by the way who is the real hijacker anyway? Who is trying to claim ownership of a word that is NOT theirs in the first place?
...And by the way who is the real hijacker anyway? Who is trying to claim ownership of a word that is NOT theirs in the first place?
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written by cm2121, December 29, 2007 08:19:25
written by cm2121, December 29, 2007 08:19:25
My dear rohani... you really are insecure. You think that every Malaysian Christians have ulterior motives and are out to convert you and others with our Bahasa Malaysia/Indonesia Bibles. You are so insecure that you failed to see that there's a big forest behind the trees. You failed to see what UMNO and its higher ups are doing because your mind is sooo fixed with accusing others with ulterior motives. I'm tired of explaining things to you. Please go and read the article written by Dr. Faris (Malaysia_today.net) and re-read the article above by Raja Petra Kamarudin.
I think you are really confused that you are contradicting yourself. Let me quote what you said: "IF YOU ARE SERIOUS IN YOUR THOUGHT, CONDUCT THE PRAYERS IN ENGLISH AND USE THE WORD ALLAH INSTEAD OF JESUS OR GOD TO FELLOW CHRISTIANS. PERIOD" And another of your statement: "...and infact you started to accuse me of imposing English in your prayers. And by the way who is the real hijacker anyway? Who is trying to clainm ownership of a word that is theirs in the first place?
Free yourself with all this misgivings. I'm only stating what have been said by other contributors. That no one have a right to claim exclusive usage of the word "Allah".
I think you are really confused that you are contradicting yourself. Let me quote what you said: "IF YOU ARE SERIOUS IN YOUR THOUGHT, CONDUCT THE PRAYERS IN ENGLISH AND USE THE WORD ALLAH INSTEAD OF JESUS OR GOD TO FELLOW CHRISTIANS. PERIOD" And another of your statement: "...and infact you started to accuse me of imposing English in your prayers. And by the way who is the real hijacker anyway? Who is trying to clainm ownership of a word that is theirs in the first place?
Free yourself with all this misgivings. I'm only stating what have been said by other contributors. That no one have a right to claim exclusive usage of the word "Allah".
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 29, 2007 03:48:19
written by Rohani Hitam, December 29, 2007 03:48:19
samadz72 wrote:
Actually it is not a big deal (in my personal opinion) if Christian want to use the word "Allah" in their Bahasa Malaysia translation but the line must be draw somewhere. If we are not careful, someone might used the same argument (that no one has the right to exclusivity to certain word) to start calling his pet with the name that we all know closely associate with certain religion
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But to add samadz72, Allah, to Malaysian Muslims is an unitarian God and not a Trinitarian God. The use of Allah by Malysian Christians is inappropriate. they should stick to Jesus or God or Father that is more in-line with their faith as God the father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Why hijack other peoples language and try to justify the use. It only recently this problem surfaced due to some dubious intention to confuse the Muslims and attract them into Christianity. Christians must learn how to stay in their tradition and not encroach into others.
You try to do this in Singapore. You'll get a stern warning due to her tough religious harmony law. If you persist Singapore has the law to prosecute you and put you away. Don't mass up. Be focussed.
Actually it is not a big deal (in my personal opinion) if Christian want to use the word "Allah" in their Bahasa Malaysia translation but the line must be draw somewhere. If we are not careful, someone might used the same argument (that no one has the right to exclusivity to certain word) to start calling his pet with the name that we all know closely associate with certain religion
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But to add samadz72, Allah, to Malaysian Muslims is an unitarian God and not a Trinitarian God. The use of Allah by Malysian Christians is inappropriate. they should stick to Jesus or God or Father that is more in-line with their faith as God the father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Why hijack other peoples language and try to justify the use. It only recently this problem surfaced due to some dubious intention to confuse the Muslims and attract them into Christianity. Christians must learn how to stay in their tradition and not encroach into others.
You try to do this in Singapore. You'll get a stern warning due to her tough religious harmony law. If you persist Singapore has the law to prosecute you and put you away. Don't mass up. Be focussed.
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written by shamadz72, December 29, 2007 03:00:27
written by shamadz72, December 29, 2007 03:00:27
jedyoong, December 29, 2007 | 03:13:48
I agree possibly to diffuse the situation in malaysia, i would advise christians to stick to Tuhan. smilies/smiley.gif
To keep the peace.
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Good to see that someone can see the point.
Actually it is not a big deal (in my personal opinion) if Christian want to use the word "Allah" in their Bahasa Malaysia translation but the line must be draw somewhere. If we are not careful, someone might used the same argument (that no one has the right to exclusivity to certain word) to start calling his pet with the name that we all know closely associate with certain religion.
I agree possibly to diffuse the situation in malaysia, i would advise christians to stick to Tuhan. smilies/smiley.gif
To keep the peace.
-----
Good to see that someone can see the point.
Actually it is not a big deal (in my personal opinion) if Christian want to use the word "Allah" in their Bahasa Malaysia translation but the line must be draw somewhere. If we are not careful, someone might used the same argument (that no one has the right to exclusivity to certain word) to start calling his pet with the name that we all know closely associate with certain religion.
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written by Kamarudin Awang, December 29, 2007 02:44:26
written by Kamarudin Awang, December 29, 2007 02:44:26
Ya Rohani. You are right. If Allah is universal to Christianity why restrict it only to Bahasa Malaysia. Why not used it in English, German, Chinese etc. The word Allah in the Muslim world is been used universally in whatever languages of the world.
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 29, 2007 02:31:35
written by Rohani Hitam, December 29, 2007 02:31:35
cm2121 wrote:
"Rohani even got the nerve to tell us that we use English instead. Is she branding English as the language for Christians? What kind of tolerance are you talking about? Respect is a two way process. We cannot have one party imposing his/her unacceptable requirements and the other party just accept them without question. Peace"
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Again you have eluded my question and infact you started to accuse me of imposing English in your prayers. cm2121 answer to my question. This is my fifth time asking you. Are Christians prepared to use the word "Allah" consistently instead of Jesus or God or Father when conducting religious sessions in language other than Malay?
"Rohani even got the nerve to tell us that we use English instead. Is she branding English as the language for Christians? What kind of tolerance are you talking about? Respect is a two way process. We cannot have one party imposing his/her unacceptable requirements and the other party just accept them without question. Peace"
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Again you have eluded my question and infact you started to accuse me of imposing English in your prayers. cm2121 answer to my question. This is my fifth time asking you. Are Christians prepared to use the word "Allah" consistently instead of Jesus or God or Father when conducting religious sessions in language other than Malay?
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 29, 2007 02:17:06
written by Rohani Hitam, December 29, 2007 02:17:06
cm2121 wrote:
It is not about "substituting" the word "Jesus" with "Allah". It never was. We have been using the word "Allah" a very long time already... it's in the Bahasa Malaysia/Indonesia Bible... it's in our books.. it's in our catechism for our children... it's everywhere in our Bahasa Malaysia Christian literature. We don't have to substiture anything because the word "Allah" is there all this while. Shalom.
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Don't bullsheet that Malaysian Christians have used the word Allah for a very long time. You only take presedence after Indonesia did it first in their Bahasa Indonesia Bible and then now in the congregation and prayers. This happened during Suharto's era who had a Christian wife.
And you still have not answered my question. For the forth time I ask you again whether the churches in West Malaysia are prepared to use "Allah" in lieau of Jesus or God or Father when conducting prayers in English, Mandarin or Tamil. If you side step or eluded my question then I not am wrong to conclude that your intention of using "Allah", as you claimed that it is not a Malay word but is also an universal Christian word, is to confuse the Malay-speaking Muslims with non other intention than to convert them.
It is not about "substituting" the word "Jesus" with "Allah". It never was. We have been using the word "Allah" a very long time already... it's in the Bahasa Malaysia/Indonesia Bible... it's in our books.. it's in our catechism for our children... it's everywhere in our Bahasa Malaysia Christian literature. We don't have to substiture anything because the word "Allah" is there all this while. Shalom.
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Don't bullsheet that Malaysian Christians have used the word Allah for a very long time. You only take presedence after Indonesia did it first in their Bahasa Indonesia Bible and then now in the congregation and prayers. This happened during Suharto's era who had a Christian wife.
And you still have not answered my question. For the forth time I ask you again whether the churches in West Malaysia are prepared to use "Allah" in lieau of Jesus or God or Father when conducting prayers in English, Mandarin or Tamil. If you side step or eluded my question then I not am wrong to conclude that your intention of using "Allah", as you claimed that it is not a Malay word but is also an universal Christian word, is to confuse the Malay-speaking Muslims with non other intention than to convert them.
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written by cm2121, December 29, 2007 02:16:56
written by cm2121, December 29, 2007 02:16:56
People like Johari (...and Rohani and Kamarudin) fail to see the plight of the East Malaysian Christian who have been using such term for a long time already. It's not recent. Like I said a majority of us are Malay speakers and not English. How can you suddenly tell us to change what we have been using/practicing all this while. We didn't suddenly use the word. Your brand of tolerance is that you make a ruling, i tolerate. To me that is not tolerance at at all. That is imposing oneself towards the other.
I think this whole hoo-hah is actually about the insecurity felt by one party, thinking that the other party is about to convert their members. This is all unfounded. This just shows the lack of confidence and distrust to their "own members" that they will "cross over" merely by the existence of such Malay Literature which is in the 1st place not for them.
I have been pointing out this thing over and over again, that we are Malay speakers and we need such literatures to teach our young and not YOURS. We have no ulterior motives. If you are so afraid that your people might become apostate because of this... then further educate them so as not to "run away". Is it so hard to understand? Rohani even got the nerve to tell us that we use English instead. Is she branding English as the language for Christians? What kind of tolerance are you talking about? Respect is a two way process. We cannot have one party imposing his/her unacceptable requirements and the other party just accept them without question. Peace.
I think this whole hoo-hah is actually about the insecurity felt by one party, thinking that the other party is about to convert their members. This is all unfounded. This just shows the lack of confidence and distrust to their "own members" that they will "cross over" merely by the existence of such Malay Literature which is in the 1st place not for them.
I have been pointing out this thing over and over again, that we are Malay speakers and we need such literatures to teach our young and not YOURS. We have no ulterior motives. If you are so afraid that your people might become apostate because of this... then further educate them so as not to "run away". Is it so hard to understand? Rohani even got the nerve to tell us that we use English instead. Is she branding English as the language for Christians? What kind of tolerance are you talking about? Respect is a two way process. We cannot have one party imposing his/her unacceptable requirements and the other party just accept them without question. Peace.
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written by Kamarudin Awang, December 29, 2007 01:56:51
written by Kamarudin Awang, December 29, 2007 01:56:51
I agree with Rohani Hitam. Why the fuss about calling God as Allah by the Christian. When I attended the mass during my school days in a Christian Aided School, there was no mentioned of Allah. Why now? Is it because they find diffulty to convert the Malay to Christianity. So they strategise by using Allah to be in syn with the Muslims. That why the Quran has warned that the kafir will use all means to mislead the Muslims. So as a Muslim please pertingkatkan keimanan anda semuga tak terpedaya dengan dakyah-dakyah penganut Christian. Wallahu alam.
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 29, 2007 01:56:45
written by Rohani Hitam, December 29, 2007 01:56:45
etchin,
Please confirm that there shall be no religious talk or songs. I am tired of this so-called pretention.
Please confirm that there shall be no religious talk or songs. I am tired of this so-called pretention.
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written by stchin, December 29, 2007 00:02:18
written by stchin, December 29, 2007 00:02:18
...where !? ask around in ipoh...ASK and be answered !
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written by stchin, December 28, 2007 23:58:15
written by stchin, December 28, 2007 23:58:15
...come to ccc canning garden ipoh for 'guitaring and singing' sessions every 'tuesday friday' morings ! we sing oldiesof 50s 60s 70s 80s " north to alaska, fall in love with you, love letters in the sand, are you lonesome tonite, beautiful sunday, till you are in my arms again....lagi dan lagi" !!
....bring you guitar,violin,harmonica,piano(!?),erhu...whatever, ok !
....no politics, arguments or quarels !
....sing and dance !
....teach us malay,indian,chinese,hindi,siamese...songs and dances !
....we give ipoh WHITE COFFEE !!
....come..come...come with LOVE & HARMONY ! ...( live and let-livelah !!)
....bring you guitar,violin,harmonica,piano(!?),erhu...whatever, ok !
....no politics, arguments or quarels !
....sing and dance !
....teach us malay,indian,chinese,hindi,siamese...songs and dances !
....we give ipoh WHITE COFFEE !!
....come..come...come with LOVE & HARMONY ! ...( live and let-livelah !!)
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written by stchin, December 28, 2007 23:20:58
written by stchin, December 28, 2007 23:20:58
.... dun..dun ..dun try to out-smart one another,ok ! Have a cup of WHITE COFFEE , come to IPOH !!
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written by stchin, December 28, 2007 23:16:22
written by stchin, December 28, 2007 23:16:22
children oh children , PEACE and LOVE be upon you all !! ( dun let that fellow trap us all like how 'adam and wife' were cheated and played-out) ...AWAS...AWAS...AWAS...AWAS...AWAS...AWAS...AWAS...!
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 28, 2007 19:32:37
written by Rohani Hitam, December 28, 2007 19:32:37
jedyoong,
I am glad you see my point. I have more friends who are Christians. They belong to various churches and I sometimes accept their invitation to attend the masses or prayers. There I felt that we are one. We pray to God and we forget momentarily that we are different. I was impressed with their devotion. I was also impressed by the many ways they pray to God. The Catholics, Protestants, the Charismatic Movement etc. it's their way and their method of getting closer to God. We do not hijack each other words to create the impression that we are the same. We are aware of our diferences and we want to live by it. We are together because we respect each other. We avoid things that create confusion and we are sensitive to their personal feelings. My Christian friends never try to confuse me. They know the word ALLAH is sacred to Muslims and we know Jesus is Sacred to the Christians. We are also aware that Mary is Holy to the Catholics and we don't take advantage over the differences between the Protestants and the Catholics. We recognise this as part of our everyday life, living in a multi-racial society. Tolerence and respect is the essence including the sensitivity in using the word ALLAH and JESUS.
I am glad you see my point. I have more friends who are Christians. They belong to various churches and I sometimes accept their invitation to attend the masses or prayers. There I felt that we are one. We pray to God and we forget momentarily that we are different. I was impressed with their devotion. I was also impressed by the many ways they pray to God. The Catholics, Protestants, the Charismatic Movement etc. it's their way and their method of getting closer to God. We do not hijack each other words to create the impression that we are the same. We are aware of our diferences and we want to live by it. We are together because we respect each other. We avoid things that create confusion and we are sensitive to their personal feelings. My Christian friends never try to confuse me. They know the word ALLAH is sacred to Muslims and we know Jesus is Sacred to the Christians. We are also aware that Mary is Holy to the Catholics and we don't take advantage over the differences between the Protestants and the Catholics. We recognise this as part of our everyday life, living in a multi-racial society. Tolerence and respect is the essence including the sensitivity in using the word ALLAH and JESUS.
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written by jedyoong, December 28, 2007 19:13:48
written by jedyoong, December 28, 2007 19:13:48
Dear Rohani,
I agree possibly to diffuse the situation in malaysia, i would advise christians to stick to Tuhan.
To keep the peace.
I see we share the same problems of Man wanting to control other Man by trying to use God too.
Tks.
I agree possibly to diffuse the situation in malaysia, i would advise christians to stick to Tuhan.
To keep the peace.
I see we share the same problems of Man wanting to control other Man by trying to use God too.
Tks.
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 28, 2007 19:09:56
written by Rohani Hitam, December 28, 2007 19:09:56
Dear jedyoong,
Islam is a very simple religion. You either follow the teaching or you don't. We have the Haram and Halal as well as Makroh to tell the differnce. What makes it complicated is the interpretation by many who wants to be the Imams.
We have lived harmoniously until lately when some issues become very threatening. The use of Allah is one of them. Everybody has the right to use the term but they must display an honest and malicious free intention. The Muslims in Malaysia have great affection towards the term ALLAH. It is sacred and should be used with care and sincerity. You want to use in your prayers, be it. No Muslims would stop you including conducting prayers in other language besides Malay. But the Christians want to limit the use when conducting prayers or sermons or lessons in Malay and not other language. This I think is not sincere. Christins say that the term Allah is used by Christians in Egypt, Palestine and is not a Malay word. Then use it when you conduct your Christian prayers in languages other than Malay. Otherwise I see no deep sincerity except for malicious reason to confuse we Muslims.
Islam is a very simple religion. You either follow the teaching or you don't. We have the Haram and Halal as well as Makroh to tell the differnce. What makes it complicated is the interpretation by many who wants to be the Imams.
We have lived harmoniously until lately when some issues become very threatening. The use of Allah is one of them. Everybody has the right to use the term but they must display an honest and malicious free intention. The Muslims in Malaysia have great affection towards the term ALLAH. It is sacred and should be used with care and sincerity. You want to use in your prayers, be it. No Muslims would stop you including conducting prayers in other language besides Malay. But the Christians want to limit the use when conducting prayers or sermons or lessons in Malay and not other language. This I think is not sincere. Christins say that the term Allah is used by Christians in Egypt, Palestine and is not a Malay word. Then use it when you conduct your Christian prayers in languages other than Malay. Otherwise I see no deep sincerity except for malicious reason to confuse we Muslims.
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written by jedyoong, December 28, 2007 18:57:49
written by jedyoong, December 28, 2007 18:57:49
Agree with CM. I do not wish to debate about doctrines but felt strongly I had to state my stand. From my experience, religious debates seldom lead anyway. God is supernatural and Man's encounter with Him will be too.
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written by cm2121, December 28, 2007 18:51:27
written by cm2121, December 28, 2007 18:51:27
Dearest Rohani,
You are the one being elusive about the whole issue. You are denying the fact that the Malaysian Christians have their constitutional right to use Bahasa Malaysia or whatever word they choose. If you are questioning the Doctrines of Christianity, then i refuse to involve myself in such arguments, because then i would start questioning the core of your Islamic Faith and that would not be good (...like what you have stated) for the peaceful "co-existence" of multi-religious Malaysia. Like i said this is not the venue to debate about religion and it wouldn't solve anything.
It is not about "substituting" the word "Jesus" with "Allah". It never was. We have been using the word "Allah" a very long time already... it's in the Bahasa Malaysia/Indonesia Bible... it's in our books.. it's in our catechism for our children... it's everywhere in our Bahasa Malaysia Christian literature. We don't have to substiture anything because the word "Allah" is there all this while. Shalom.
You are the one being elusive about the whole issue. You are denying the fact that the Malaysian Christians have their constitutional right to use Bahasa Malaysia or whatever word they choose. If you are questioning the Doctrines of Christianity, then i refuse to involve myself in such arguments, because then i would start questioning the core of your Islamic Faith and that would not be good (...like what you have stated) for the peaceful "co-existence" of multi-religious Malaysia. Like i said this is not the venue to debate about religion and it wouldn't solve anything.
It is not about "substituting" the word "Jesus" with "Allah". It never was. We have been using the word "Allah" a very long time already... it's in the Bahasa Malaysia/Indonesia Bible... it's in our books.. it's in our catechism for our children... it's everywhere in our Bahasa Malaysia Christian literature. We don't have to substiture anything because the word "Allah" is there all this while. Shalom.
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written by jedyoong, December 28, 2007 18:36:16
written by jedyoong, December 28, 2007 18:36:16
Rohani, As a Christian, I have to agree with you. We believe Jesus is the Son of God, that is the most important part. I have no problems using the word Allah if I was praying in Arabic, it's just that I pray in English. What's also important is semantics aside, the CONCEPT of God that we have, ie who we are actually worshiping. Although there are similarities, major differences splits us apart. But only in religion.
I believe spirituality, not religion, is between Man and God. Our individual beliefs should not stop us from being friends. For at the end of the day, what we believe about God only exists in our HEADS. There is always the likelihood that we MAY be wrong, as we are humans and not God. So my way to deal with it is, I may be wrong but I believe I am right so this would mean other people are wrong about God. However, this doesnt give me a right to shove my beliefs down anyone else's throats.
Back to Christianity, Christianity isn't a religion as such. When Jesus was alive it was a really radical movement that shook the relgious establishment because Jesus brought God to the masses. Before there was a High Priest (only him allowed in the Holy of Holies, ie Presence of God), korban at the temple for atonement, learning from elders etc.
But Jesus basically said that he is the High Priest, so everyone can pray to him; the ultimate sacrifice for our sins, so no more bloody slaying of lambs; and if you don't have anyone to teach you about God, just ask the Holy Spirit to guide you. So many considered Christianity a cult at that time cos it was so radical. I mean this was a guy who claimed to be God, performed miracles, was crucified, then resurrected, went to heaven, and promised to come again. I mean it's really the stuff of science fiction.
To clear up further confusion about the Christian faith, what we see now in terms of churches, organisation is just Man trying to control God in a way for in Jesus's time, there were no church buildings. The church refers to the body of believers, something like the Muslim ummah (brotherhood?). And the emphasis is always the relationship with God that will transform or save the person. With organised religion, the problems prevalent in most human institutions are also evident -- struggle for power, politics, serving for personal gain...which may not be a bed of roses but we do need people with our walk with Christ.
Having said that, this is my view of Christianity which may be more liberal than others. OK. Happee debating.
So I do hope that regardless of my views, we can agree to disagree and continue being friends.
I believe spirituality, not religion, is between Man and God. Our individual beliefs should not stop us from being friends. For at the end of the day, what we believe about God only exists in our HEADS. There is always the likelihood that we MAY be wrong, as we are humans and not God. So my way to deal with it is, I may be wrong but I believe I am right so this would mean other people are wrong about God. However, this doesnt give me a right to shove my beliefs down anyone else's throats.
Back to Christianity, Christianity isn't a religion as such. When Jesus was alive it was a really radical movement that shook the relgious establishment because Jesus brought God to the masses. Before there was a High Priest (only him allowed in the Holy of Holies, ie Presence of God), korban at the temple for atonement, learning from elders etc.
But Jesus basically said that he is the High Priest, so everyone can pray to him; the ultimate sacrifice for our sins, so no more bloody slaying of lambs; and if you don't have anyone to teach you about God, just ask the Holy Spirit to guide you. So many considered Christianity a cult at that time cos it was so radical. I mean this was a guy who claimed to be God, performed miracles, was crucified, then resurrected, went to heaven, and promised to come again. I mean it's really the stuff of science fiction.
To clear up further confusion about the Christian faith, what we see now in terms of churches, organisation is just Man trying to control God in a way for in Jesus's time, there were no church buildings. The church refers to the body of believers, something like the Muslim ummah (brotherhood?). And the emphasis is always the relationship with God that will transform or save the person. With organised religion, the problems prevalent in most human institutions are also evident -- struggle for power, politics, serving for personal gain...which may not be a bed of roses but we do need people with our walk with Christ.
Having said that, this is my view of Christianity which may be more liberal than others. OK. Happee debating.
So I do hope that regardless of my views, we can agree to disagree and continue being friends.
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 28, 2007 18:17:23
written by Rohani Hitam, December 28, 2007 18:17:23
Hi cm2121,
You still have not answered my question. Don't try to be elusive and avoid a very important point here. I ask again the very third time - Are Malaysian Christians prepared to substitute the word Jesus or God to "Allah" when conducting prayers with their fellow Christians in English, Chinese or Tamil?
You still have not answered my question. Don't try to be elusive and avoid a very important point here. I ask again the very third time - Are Malaysian Christians prepared to substitute the word Jesus or God to "Allah" when conducting prayers with their fellow Christians in English, Chinese or Tamil?
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written by cm2121, December 28, 2007 18:10:45
written by cm2121, December 28, 2007 18:10:45
Rohani: "...WE NEVER HAD TROUBLE WITH YOU UNTIL YOU AND YOUR BIG ARGUEMENT ON THE WORD ALLAH. IF YOU ARE SERIOUS IN YOUR THOUGHT, CONDUCT THE PRAYERS IN ENGLISH AND USE THE WORD ALLAH INSTEAD OF JESUS OR GOD TO FELLOW CHRISTIANS. PERIOD!"
Dear Rohani,
Why separate East and West Malaysia? Don't you consider us Sabahans/Sarawakians as Malaysian also? In fact to be frank with you, we East Malaysian Christian are the ones most affected by such unacceptable decision. I don't want to argue with you about my idea of God/Allah or your idea about Him. I don't want to debate with you about my religion or your religion; we can argue all we want until we are blue, i think both of us would still maintain our beliefs in our respective Faith. Nothing you and i will say will change that.
What i want you and people like you to understand is that almost all the Christians in East Malaysia are Malay speaking and not English speaking. If you give English translation to these people they wouldn't comprehend anything because basically we are Malay speaking. Even the majority of children (though this is sad) don't even understand their own mother-tongue. They only know how to speak and understand Malay. So, may i ask you... is it fair for the government to banned Bahasa Christian literatures for the teaching of our faith to our own children? And in case you don't know, even before Malaysia was formed, the people of Sabah/Sarawak now and then, have been conducting Bahasa Services and use the word Allah in such services. And another thing, you are wrong. We didn't start the fire. That Johari Baharom did. People like him are the ones who's killing the harmonious "co-existence" of multi-religious and multi-cultural Malaysia. I maintain, no single race can claim exclusive right and usage of a word. Now.. why would you want us to conduct our services in English only? Be fair lah Rohani... Like Tan Sri Bernard rightfully stated "Bahasa Malaysia is for all Malaysians". Peace be with you.
Dear Rohani,
Why separate East and West Malaysia? Don't you consider us Sabahans/Sarawakians as Malaysian also? In fact to be frank with you, we East Malaysian Christian are the ones most affected by such unacceptable decision. I don't want to argue with you about my idea of God/Allah or your idea about Him. I don't want to debate with you about my religion or your religion; we can argue all we want until we are blue, i think both of us would still maintain our beliefs in our respective Faith. Nothing you and i will say will change that.
What i want you and people like you to understand is that almost all the Christians in East Malaysia are Malay speaking and not English speaking. If you give English translation to these people they wouldn't comprehend anything because basically we are Malay speaking. Even the majority of children (though this is sad) don't even understand their own mother-tongue. They only know how to speak and understand Malay. So, may i ask you... is it fair for the government to banned Bahasa Christian literatures for the teaching of our faith to our own children? And in case you don't know, even before Malaysia was formed, the people of Sabah/Sarawak now and then, have been conducting Bahasa Services and use the word Allah in such services. And another thing, you are wrong. We didn't start the fire. That Johari Baharom did. People like him are the ones who's killing the harmonious "co-existence" of multi-religious and multi-cultural Malaysia. I maintain, no single race can claim exclusive right and usage of a word. Now.. why would you want us to conduct our services in English only? Be fair lah Rohani... Like Tan Sri Bernard rightfully stated "Bahasa Malaysia is for all Malaysians". Peace be with you.
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 28, 2007 18:10:41
written by Rohani Hitam, December 28, 2007 18:10:41
Dear mimag2005,
To Muslims, Jesus is a prophet. To the Chritians he is God. Don't try to bring up some similarities while turn your attention away from the BIG difference. We are trillion light yeats away from you in the terms of GOD. Your Trinitarian God is your exclusive right and we have nothing to do with your brand of "Jesus as the son of God."
To Muslims, Jesus is a prophet. To the Chritians he is God. Don't try to bring up some similarities while turn your attention away from the BIG difference. We are trillion light yeats away from you in the terms of GOD. Your Trinitarian God is your exclusive right and we have nothing to do with your brand of "Jesus as the son of God."
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written by cm2121, December 28, 2007 17:36:35
written by cm2121, December 28, 2007 17:36:35
To shamadz72, i think you are the one missing the point here. The Christian of East Malaysia have been using the word "Allah" even before Malaysia itself was formed. Like i said earlier the majority of Christian here are Malay speaking and not English speaking as you perceive it to be. We conduct our services in BM also. It is not right for the BN Govt thru the Internal Security Ministry to banned books including Bahasa Malaysia/Bahasa Indonesia Bibles containing the word "Allah" from being used by Christians for our own purpose of educating our children and not for the general public. Why are you people so insecure about this? It just shows your lack of faith towards your own religion to the extend that you are afraid that your people might be confused or even convert by the mere existence of such Christian literature which in actual fact is not even for you.
I maintain my stand. No single race can claim exclusive right to a word. It is not right and it is detrimental to the harmony of the multi-racial community of Malaysia. Let me quote what Raja Petra Kamaruddin said above:
"There is only one God for all. There are no three Gods. There are no separate Gods for Jews, Christians and Muslims. And all the three -- the Jews, Christians and Muslims -- believe in the God of Abraham. So how can only Muslims be allowed use of the word 'Allah' while all others are banned from using this word?"
I maintain my stand. No single race can claim exclusive right to a word. It is not right and it is detrimental to the harmony of the multi-racial community of Malaysia. Let me quote what Raja Petra Kamaruddin said above:
"There is only one God for all. There are no three Gods. There are no separate Gods for Jews, Christians and Muslims. And all the three -- the Jews, Christians and Muslims -- believe in the God of Abraham. So how can only Muslims be allowed use of the word 'Allah' while all others are banned from using this word?"
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written by mimag2005, December 28, 2007 16:47:16
written by mimag2005, December 28, 2007 16:47:16
Dear Rohani,
WE'VE GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LORD JESUS YOU CALLED GOD.
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You shud expand further. otherwise others may get the wrong impression that the Muslims do not accept or recognise jesus.
I read in your Koran, jesus birth, ministryship etc was mentioned. My Muslim friends told me that one cannot be called a Muslim if he dont accept Jesus. I think its part of your rakan or kurun ... im not so sure.
Also i came across a section which also mention about Jesus mother where Almighty God declared that she was chosen woman above ALL OTHER NATIONS WOMEN to conceive Jesus. Such high praise showered on Jesus mother. Even the Catholic bible who revere Mother Mary dont have similar praise for her.
Also cud you explain why Mohamed's mother or wife was not mention in the Koran ?
Thanks
WE'VE GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LORD JESUS YOU CALLED GOD.
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You shud expand further. otherwise others may get the wrong impression that the Muslims do not accept or recognise jesus.
I read in your Koran, jesus birth, ministryship etc was mentioned. My Muslim friends told me that one cannot be called a Muslim if he dont accept Jesus. I think its part of your rakan or kurun ... im not so sure.
Also i came across a section which also mention about Jesus mother where Almighty God declared that she was chosen woman above ALL OTHER NATIONS WOMEN to conceive Jesus. Such high praise showered on Jesus mother. Even the Catholic bible who revere Mother Mary dont have similar praise for her.
Also cud you explain why Mohamed's mother or wife was not mention in the Koran ?
Thanks
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 28, 2007 16:20:34
written by Rohani Hitam, December 28, 2007 16:20:34
"Nothing you can do could make HIM love you more,nothing you have done could make HIM close the door;
because of HIS great great love HE gave HIS only son;
Everything was done so you would come !"
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ALLAH DOES NOT BEGETS A SON. ALLAH IS ONE AND THE ONLY GOD TO MUSLIMS. CHRISTIANS CONSIDER JESUS AS GOD, THE SON. THAT MAKES THE WORD ALLAH NOT APPLICABLE TO CHRISTIANS. THE ALLAH WE PRAYED TO IS NOT THE "ALLAH" YOU SAY IN YOUR SERMON IN MALAY. WE ARE NOT PRAYING TO THE SAME GOD. WE'VE GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LORD JESUS YOU CALLED GOD. YOU ARE DIFFERENT. DON'T TRY TO GET NEAR US. WE ARE NOT ONE OF YOU NEITHER WE PREACH THE SAME RELIGION OR GOD. WE CAN HAVE COMMON INTEREST - TO LIVE HARMONIOUSLY IN THIS MULTI-RELIGIOUS AND MULTI-RACIAL COUNTRY. JUST LET THE DIFFERENCE OPERATES ON IT'S OWN COEXISTENCE. WE NEVER HAD TROUBLE WITH YOU UNTIL YOU AND YOUR BIG ARGUEMENT ON THE WORD ALLAH. IF YOU ARE SERIOUS IN YOUR THOUGHT, CONDUCT THE PRAYERS IN ENGLISH AND USE THE WORD ALLAH INSTEAD OF JESUS OR GOD TO FELLOW CHRISTIANS. PERIOD!
because of HIS great great love HE gave HIS only son;
Everything was done so you would come !"
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ALLAH DOES NOT BEGETS A SON. ALLAH IS ONE AND THE ONLY GOD TO MUSLIMS. CHRISTIANS CONSIDER JESUS AS GOD, THE SON. THAT MAKES THE WORD ALLAH NOT APPLICABLE TO CHRISTIANS. THE ALLAH WE PRAYED TO IS NOT THE "ALLAH" YOU SAY IN YOUR SERMON IN MALAY. WE ARE NOT PRAYING TO THE SAME GOD. WE'VE GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LORD JESUS YOU CALLED GOD. YOU ARE DIFFERENT. DON'T TRY TO GET NEAR US. WE ARE NOT ONE OF YOU NEITHER WE PREACH THE SAME RELIGION OR GOD. WE CAN HAVE COMMON INTEREST - TO LIVE HARMONIOUSLY IN THIS MULTI-RELIGIOUS AND MULTI-RACIAL COUNTRY. JUST LET THE DIFFERENCE OPERATES ON IT'S OWN COEXISTENCE. WE NEVER HAD TROUBLE WITH YOU UNTIL YOU AND YOUR BIG ARGUEMENT ON THE WORD ALLAH. IF YOU ARE SERIOUS IN YOUR THOUGHT, CONDUCT THE PRAYERS IN ENGLISH AND USE THE WORD ALLAH INSTEAD OF JESUS OR GOD TO FELLOW CHRISTIANS. PERIOD!
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 28, 2007 16:07:20
written by Rohani Hitam, December 28, 2007 16:07:20
Dear cm2121,
You have not answered my question. Will the church in West Malaysia use the word "Allah" in lieau of Jesus, God or the Father when conducting sermon or prayers to fellow Christians in English, Chinese or Tamil? Don't bit around the bush. One more time you try to elude my question I have no problem in drawing my conclusion on the actual Christians' intention of using Allah only when conducting prayers in Malay.
You have not answered my question. Will the church in West Malaysia use the word "Allah" in lieau of Jesus, God or the Father when conducting sermon or prayers to fellow Christians in English, Chinese or Tamil? Don't bit around the bush. One more time you try to elude my question I have no problem in drawing my conclusion on the actual Christians' intention of using Allah only when conducting prayers in Malay.
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written by stchin, December 28, 2007 14:34:25
written by stchin, December 28, 2007 14:34:25
"Nothing you can do could make HIM love you more,nothing you have done could make HIM close the door;
because of HIS great great love HE gave HIS only son;
Everything was done so you would come !"
Children oh children , let PEACE prevail !!
because of HIS great great love HE gave HIS only son;
Everything was done so you would come !"
Children oh children , let PEACE prevail !!
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written by shamadz72, December 28, 2007 14:10:35
written by shamadz72, December 28, 2007 14:10:35
cm2121, December 28, 2007 | 10:19:23
"What i totally disagree is the claim that only a certain people have the exclusive right to use the word "Allah". Shalom my friend."
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You missed the point here CM2121. If the Christian want to distribute their Arabic version of their bible with the word "Allah" referring to god, than there shouldn't be any problem with it. but if they want to have their Malay language version and refer to the word God as "Allah" than it is already wrong. Since the right word for God in Malay language is "Tuhan". Even the Quran translated into Malay language also use the word "Tuhan".
It will be a totally different thing if they are using "Allah" to refer to God in every bible translation in every languages, such as Indian, Romanian, French etc.
"What i totally disagree is the claim that only a certain people have the exclusive right to use the word "Allah". Shalom my friend."
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You missed the point here CM2121. If the Christian want to distribute their Arabic version of their bible with the word "Allah" referring to god, than there shouldn't be any problem with it. but if they want to have their Malay language version and refer to the word God as "Allah" than it is already wrong. Since the right word for God in Malay language is "Tuhan". Even the Quran translated into Malay language also use the word "Tuhan".
It will be a totally different thing if they are using "Allah" to refer to God in every bible translation in every languages, such as Indian, Romanian, French etc.
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written by Fart Fart Wah, December 28, 2007 13:59:28
written by Fart Fart Wah, December 28, 2007 13:59:28
As for the HALAL and HARAM nonsense it is being done today for "MUH-NEY" by commercialising of this and that...
everyday MILLIONS of MUSLIMS carry DIRTY MONEY intheir purse..it comes from all kind of transactions..
pork sellers, prostitutes, gamblers..everything that is filthy..to also good..but to some of these so called hypocrite MUSLIMs ..this is OK>>ignorance is bliss..Allah forgives conveniently..
Ask then to throw these dirty dollar notes out from their purses..oh no...how can ..how to survive??
I think in a world that is getting smaller ..these Muslims must open their minds to think " Holiness of the Heart" rather than the stressing the externals..granted some external form of worship is required..yes..be intelligent enough to see the ones required..eg..yoou cannot walk into a mosque with shoes..yes it has to be external..a show of deep respect for Allah's place of worship.
That stupid Mufti who issued a Fatwa not to allow the Goddess of Mercy statue is so frightend he will fall and worship the statue??? Is he weak in his faith??? or is it another political mileage???
Muslims are interacting daily with others..you cannot ..say this is not halal that is haram..
..must have halal plates..must not eat in a non-muslim home..
3 billion people inthis world are eating PORK...so according to these muslims all are destined for Hell
and these very people rush to help Muslims when there is a disaster in Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan and you name it where Muslims are suffering...( so for helping them Allah is going to send them to HELL
because they are eating PORK???) Gee what a Allah!!!
I think some Muslim scholars and religious idiots need their head screwed>>everyday life sees non muslims helping other Muslims...and to condemn them over this halal and haram thing is being "Jahil"
In Malaysia I won't be surprised if another Mad Mufti will issue a Fatwa for all Muslims to wear masks everyday becasue the air is dirty and dirtied by porkeating people pumping out flatulence which they cannot smell..otherwise they all will go to hell...bloody stupid Mufti..ask this idiot to HARAM muslims from smoking first...it kills ..it murders the babies and it destroys families...
everyday MILLIONS of MUSLIMS carry DIRTY MONEY intheir purse..it comes from all kind of transactions..
pork sellers, prostitutes, gamblers..everything that is filthy..to also good..but to some of these so called hypocrite MUSLIMs ..this is OK>>ignorance is bliss..Allah forgives conveniently..
Ask then to throw these dirty dollar notes out from their purses..oh no...how can ..how to survive??
I think in a world that is getting smaller ..these Muslims must open their minds to think " Holiness of the Heart" rather than the stressing the externals..granted some external form of worship is required..yes..be intelligent enough to see the ones required..eg..yoou cannot walk into a mosque with shoes..yes it has to be external..a show of deep respect for Allah's place of worship.
That stupid Mufti who issued a Fatwa not to allow the Goddess of Mercy statue is so frightend he will fall and worship the statue??? Is he weak in his faith??? or is it another political mileage???
Muslims are interacting daily with others..you cannot ..say this is not halal that is haram..
..must have halal plates..must not eat in a non-muslim home..
3 billion people inthis world are eating PORK...so according to these muslims all are destined for Hell
and these very people rush to help Muslims when there is a disaster in Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan and you name it where Muslims are suffering...( so for helping them Allah is going to send them to HELL
because they are eating PORK???) Gee what a Allah!!!
I think some Muslim scholars and religious idiots need their head screwed>>everyday life sees non muslims helping other Muslims...and to condemn them over this halal and haram thing is being "Jahil"
In Malaysia I won't be surprised if another Mad Mufti will issue a Fatwa for all Muslims to wear masks everyday becasue the air is dirty and dirtied by porkeating people pumping out flatulence which they cannot smell..otherwise they all will go to hell...bloody stupid Mufti..ask this idiot to HARAM muslims from smoking first...it kills ..it murders the babies and it destroys families...
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written by mimag2005, December 28, 2007 13:51:06
written by mimag2005, December 28, 2007 13:51:06
Hi yy88, i cud emphatise with your dilemma. I was in that state some years back. Share you my experience.
01) i ask myself wheter I really wanted to seek the truth with all my heart, mind and soul.. & NOT JUST
LIP SERVICE .
02) To seek the TRUTH, I had to break away the shackles, bias and indoctrination taught to us from
childhood by our LOVING and TRUSTED family members including our PARENTS.
03) Religion belongs to Almighty God. No Group, Race or Individual can claim its exclusiveness.
04) Almighty God is the Creator and we ( as human beings ) are HIS CREATION beginning with ADAM.
05) Almighty God's religion is raceless, classless, colorless etc.
06) The entrant qualification is not a Harvard's degree, PEDIGREE ETC but.... only SINCERITY IN SEEKING
THE TRUTH!
07) One of Almighty God's medium to reach out to HIS CREATION is through "Ancient scriptures ".
Personally i dont believe in todays planeloads of Religious Elders. Theres more wolves than sheep.
0 We are conscious and careful of our physical health. e.g. we have 2 glasses of water.. 1 glass
sprinkle with our urine and the other glass is pure, unadulterated water. It is obvious which glass
of water will be drunk.
09) On the same premise, FOR THE HEALTH OF OUR SPIRITUAL SOUL, we shud also investigate with open minds
and hearts thru whatever channel available, the origin and accuracy of ancient scriptures in ITS
ORIGINAL REVEALED LANGUAGE !
Offcourse, we also must have the translated version for us to read and understand !
10) I used to wonder.. we as human beings with limitations... how is it possible for us to communicate
in the human language to our pet doggy. We did not have to metamophorse into a dog and speak doggy
language to make our doggy dog from the Animal kingdom understand us. Even plants from the vegetable
kingdom can react by our Human language.
Almighty God, Creator of Worlds including the Human Race, claimed by many ancient scriptures, had
to incarnate or metamophorse or call whatever you like, into one of his many creations to make us
understand his Existence and Commands.
SHOULD THIS RATIONALE BE TRUTH !, THEN I SAY.....
WE, HUMAN BEINGS WITH LIMITATIONS, ARE GREATER THAN THE ALMIGHTY GOD.
11) When we are able to breakaway from these SHACKLES, and submit ourselves in all humility before
the Almighty God, God willing we will begin to see the TRUE LIGHT !
12) My buddy from Down Under met a local aborigine. Apparently his concept of God Almighty Qualities,
as taught by his elders are :
- HE CREATE EVERYTHING AND PROVIDE FOOD FOR HIS CREATURES
- HE HAS NO BEGINNING AND NO END
- HE WAS NOT BORN
- HE HAS NO FAMILY.
- HE IS ALONE
- HE DONT NEED TO EAT, SLEEP, BECOME SICK, OLD ETC
What is most shocking... he has not heard of
- Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, Krishna, Buddha etc etc
but he knows maradona, beckham and the group.
Amen !
01) i ask myself wheter I really wanted to seek the truth with all my heart, mind and soul.. & NOT JUST
LIP SERVICE .
02) To seek the TRUTH, I had to break away the shackles, bias and indoctrination taught to us from
childhood by our LOVING and TRUSTED family members including our PARENTS.
03) Religion belongs to Almighty God. No Group, Race or Individual can claim its exclusiveness.
04) Almighty God is the Creator and we ( as human beings ) are HIS CREATION beginning with ADAM.
05) Almighty God's religion is raceless, classless, colorless etc.
06) The entrant qualification is not a Harvard's degree, PEDIGREE ETC but.... only SINCERITY IN SEEKING
THE TRUTH!
07) One of Almighty God's medium to reach out to HIS CREATION is through "Ancient scriptures ".
Personally i dont believe in todays planeloads of Religious Elders. Theres more wolves than sheep.
0
We are conscious and careful of our physical health. e.g. we have 2 glasses of water.. 1 glass sprinkle with our urine and the other glass is pure, unadulterated water. It is obvious which glass
of water will be drunk.
09) On the same premise, FOR THE HEALTH OF OUR SPIRITUAL SOUL, we shud also investigate with open minds
and hearts thru whatever channel available, the origin and accuracy of ancient scriptures in ITS
ORIGINAL REVEALED LANGUAGE !
Offcourse, we also must have the translated version for us to read and understand !
10) I used to wonder.. we as human beings with limitations... how is it possible for us to communicate
in the human language to our pet doggy. We did not have to metamophorse into a dog and speak doggy
language to make our doggy dog from the Animal kingdom understand us. Even plants from the vegetable
kingdom can react by our Human language.
Almighty God, Creator of Worlds including the Human Race, claimed by many ancient scriptures, had
to incarnate or metamophorse or call whatever you like, into one of his many creations to make us
understand his Existence and Commands.
SHOULD THIS RATIONALE BE TRUTH !, THEN I SAY.....
WE, HUMAN BEINGS WITH LIMITATIONS, ARE GREATER THAN THE ALMIGHTY GOD.
11) When we are able to breakaway from these SHACKLES, and submit ourselves in all humility before
the Almighty God, God willing we will begin to see the TRUE LIGHT !
12) My buddy from Down Under met a local aborigine. Apparently his concept of God Almighty Qualities,
as taught by his elders are :
- HE CREATE EVERYTHING AND PROVIDE FOOD FOR HIS CREATURES
- HE HAS NO BEGINNING AND NO END
- HE WAS NOT BORN
- HE HAS NO FAMILY.
- HE IS ALONE
- HE DONT NEED TO EAT, SLEEP, BECOME SICK, OLD ETC
What is most shocking... he has not heard of
- Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, Krishna, Buddha etc etc
but he knows maradona, beckham and the group.
Amen !
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written by Fart Fart Wah, December 28, 2007 13:31:21
written by Fart Fart Wah, December 28, 2007 13:31:21
The name Allah is a coined word...just like Yahweh...is.
The intelligent Almighty never revealed HIS NAME because he knew 2000 years later He will have idiots, nincompoops, so called religiously educated morons and heaven's throne claimants..and some others who constantly seem to fall into visions with God and his angels claiming that the name given to him belongs to them and no one else. Knowing that these morons will claim such so HE DID SAY that HE IS I AM WhO AM.to Moses a JEW...Logically anyone giving a name to something or someone is the owner of that thing be it a dog or a plant or a fish..and the Intelligent Almighty did authorize Adam to name everything on earth..and be its master...never did He give HIS NAME TO ADAM.(SO HOW CAN YOU GIVE A NAME TO THE ALMIGHTY ..IT AUTOMATICALLY LOOKS LIKE YOU OWN HIM..WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE...note since this big and forever argument is with the Christians and Muslims.. being the formost claimants.(FOR POLITICAL MILEAGE).it ist he stupidesst thing ..anyone can fight for..
Allah was called Allah even before the Koran was invented...PERIOD. Allah was called Allah by non-muslims in Arabia Christians too..before the the KOran was Invented...PERIOD.
THE ALMIGHTY CANNOT BE OWNED. HE IS NOT UNDERANYBODY'S OWNERSHIP..THAT LIMITS HIM..YOU IDIOTS!!!!
tHEREFORE WHATEVER NAME YOU GIVE HIM IS NOT HIS NAME...PERIOD..FOR HE KNEW THAT WOULD SET A PRECENDENCE FOR ALL THE IDIOTS AND MORONS RUNNNING AROUND NAKEDLY CLAIMING THAT HE IS THEIRS...TODAY..
I FOR ONE COULD NOT BE BOTHERED IF SOME THE MUSLIMS WANT TO LAY A CLAIM ON HIM..FOR SOME OF THEM
THINK THAT THEY ARE ALREADY ALLAH'S BLOOD RELATIVE..AND ARE DESTINED TO SIT ONHIS THRONE..
The intelligent Almighty never revealed HIS NAME because he knew 2000 years later He will have idiots, nincompoops, so called religiously educated morons and heaven's throne claimants..and some others who constantly seem to fall into visions with God and his angels claiming that the name given to him belongs to them and no one else. Knowing that these morons will claim such so HE DID SAY that HE IS I AM WhO AM.to Moses a JEW...Logically anyone giving a name to something or someone is the owner of that thing be it a dog or a plant or a fish..and the Intelligent Almighty did authorize Adam to name everything on earth..and be its master...never did He give HIS NAME TO ADAM.(SO HOW CAN YOU GIVE A NAME TO THE ALMIGHTY ..IT AUTOMATICALLY LOOKS LIKE YOU OWN HIM..WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE...note since this big and forever argument is with the Christians and Muslims.. being the formost claimants.(FOR POLITICAL MILEAGE).it ist he stupidesst thing ..anyone can fight for..
Allah was called Allah even before the Koran was invented...PERIOD. Allah was called Allah by non-muslims in Arabia Christians too..before the the KOran was Invented...PERIOD.
THE ALMIGHTY CANNOT BE OWNED. HE IS NOT UNDERANYBODY'S OWNERSHIP..THAT LIMITS HIM..YOU IDIOTS!!!!
tHEREFORE WHATEVER NAME YOU GIVE HIM IS NOT HIS NAME...PERIOD..FOR HE KNEW THAT WOULD SET A PRECENDENCE FOR ALL THE IDIOTS AND MORONS RUNNNING AROUND NAKEDLY CLAIMING THAT HE IS THEIRS...TODAY..
I FOR ONE COULD NOT BE BOTHERED IF SOME THE MUSLIMS WANT TO LAY A CLAIM ON HIM..FOR SOME OF THEM
THINK THAT THEY ARE ALREADY ALLAH'S BLOOD RELATIVE..AND ARE DESTINED TO SIT ONHIS THRONE..
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written by stchin, December 28, 2007 13:01:02
written by stchin, December 28, 2007 13:01:02
" Before the world began you were on HIS mind,every tear you cry is precious to HIS eyes, because of HIS great great love, HE gave HIS only son, everything was done so you would come !!"
Quiet ourselves and PEACE may prevail. Bless you all, amen !!
Quiet ourselves and PEACE may prevail. Bless you all, amen !!
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written by cm2121, December 28, 2007 11:43:22
written by cm2121, December 28, 2007 11:43:22
It's like this... if you are living your life as if there is no God... then you'd better be right. Otherwise..
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written by yy88, December 28, 2007 10:53:55
written by yy88, December 28, 2007 10:53:55
I always believe the existence of GOD due to the many magnificent creations on earth.
I was always doubtful and sceptical about religions and its implications.
It could be religions were not written clear and easy enough for MAN to understand them,
or the conveyors or preachers once long ago manupulated the interpretation for their benefits.
Should religions be so complicated,confusing and divisive, wouldn't it would be better without it.
Looking at all the religious tensions happening now, even make me suspects whether GOD is omnipotent or SATAN has became omnipowerful.
Just my 2 cent worth!
I was always doubtful and sceptical about religions and its implications.
It could be religions were not written clear and easy enough for MAN to understand them,
or the conveyors or preachers once long ago manupulated the interpretation for their benefits.
Should religions be so complicated,confusing and divisive, wouldn't it would be better without it.
Looking at all the religious tensions happening now, even make me suspects whether GOD is omnipotent or SATAN has became omnipowerful.
Just my 2 cent worth!
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written by glock17, December 28, 2007 09:16:13
written by glock17, December 28, 2007 09:16:13
We have a really bunch of weirdos running tis country
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written by karakuri anbu, December 28, 2007 06:51:53
written by karakuri anbu, December 28, 2007 06:51:53
shuldnt mix religion with politics. anyhow, just becoz the minister is 'confused' and unlearned, it doesnt mean the rest of the malaysians are as stupid as he is. If your true faith is what you believe in, nothing will ever shake you off of it. tell the ministry, we shuld stop using Allah too and stick to tuhan since we're not arabs. And ban all the english version of koran that has the word god in it, since most anglosaxons are Christians. let them keep the word God for their bible.
After all is done we will all be happy fools.
AABadawi... sometimes, okay you're stoopit all the time. what can i say?
After all is done we will all be happy fools.
AABadawi... sometimes, okay you're stoopit all the time. what can i say?
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written by mimag2005, December 28, 2007 05:45:02
written by mimag2005, December 28, 2007 05:45:02
Almighty God is the Greatest !.... He is the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth and Everything above, below,on, within..ad infinitum !
So claimed by everyone who profess having a religion !
Even the atheist astrophysicists cannot help but acknowledge the existence of " a super highway patrol policeman " regulating the planetry traffic in our universe in an orderly manner.
Even " Nothingness "...an entity which he created is HIS SOLE PROPRIETORSHIP ! Macrocosms into microcosms into macrocosms continuously gelling/separating forming a nexus to entity and entities... just endless !
Indeed ! HIS GREATNESS is beyond our comprehension.
Now back to planet earth.
After comprehending a fraction of the Almighty God's Omnipotence, who in his right frame of mind dare to usurp HIS PROPRIETORSHIP !
So claimed by everyone who profess having a religion !
Even the atheist astrophysicists cannot help but acknowledge the existence of " a super highway patrol policeman " regulating the planetry traffic in our universe in an orderly manner.
Even " Nothingness "...an entity which he created is HIS SOLE PROPRIETORSHIP ! Macrocosms into microcosms into macrocosms continuously gelling/separating forming a nexus to entity and entities... just endless !
Indeed ! HIS GREATNESS is beyond our comprehension.
Now back to planet earth.
After comprehending a fraction of the Almighty God's Omnipotence, who in his right frame of mind dare to usurp HIS PROPRIETORSHIP !
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written by salakkan, December 28, 2007 05:11:38
written by salakkan, December 28, 2007 05:11:38
{"..."The ban on the Iban Bible was lifted by the Acting Prime Minister (also Home Minister) when representatives of the Christian Fellowship Malaysia, Council of Churches Malaysia,
Roman Catholic Council, National Evangelistic Church Fellowship (and) the leaders of Association of Churches in Sarawak (Iban leaders) met at 1300 hours on April 22, 2003..."
http://www.biblenetworknews.com/asiapacific/042703_malaysia.html
"}
Ibans are special. Even their names have a "ban" in it!
Roman Catholic Council, National Evangelistic Church Fellowship (and) the leaders of Association of Churches in Sarawak (Iban leaders) met at 1300 hours on April 22, 2003..."
http://www.biblenetworknews.com/asiapacific/042703_malaysia.html
"}
Ibans are special. Even their names have a "ban" in it!
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written by C360, December 28, 2007 04:33:29
written by C360, December 28, 2007 04:33:29
Interesting exchanges, but the issue CREATED is NOT BECAUSE OF THE DIFFERENCE ARTICULATED HERE ..
The issue CREATED was that the use of ALLAH in BM publications of the Herald (Christian) .. together with 3 other words (which are NOT used in the publication) .. would CREATE confusion amongst "Malay Muslims" .. that the Arabic word filled a language deficiency in BM and that the word is used by both Arab Christians and Arab Muslims alike and that the word PRE-DATES the advent of Islam .. all are immaterial (seemingly by the Minister concerned) .. i think he is the one that is confused ..
Whilst it is enlightening to understand each others views on Christianity and Islam .. dont you think our energies would be better focused on dealing with an under-educated confused Minister ..
The issue CREATED was that the use of ALLAH in BM publications of the Herald (Christian) .. together with 3 other words (which are NOT used in the publication) .. would CREATE confusion amongst "Malay Muslims" .. that the Arabic word filled a language deficiency in BM and that the word is used by both Arab Christians and Arab Muslims alike and that the word PRE-DATES the advent of Islam .. all are immaterial (seemingly by the Minister concerned) .. i think he is the one that is confused ..
Whilst it is enlightening to understand each others views on Christianity and Islam .. dont you think our energies would be better focused on dealing with an under-educated confused Minister ..
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written by cm2121, December 28, 2007 02:19:23
written by cm2121, December 28, 2007 02:19:23
To mimag2005, ok I respect your brand of Christianity. But i beg to differ. For me i believe in the Lordship of Christ, He is God Incarnate and He is whom the Gospel states as "The Word made flesh". He is God Himself. Hope you respect what i believe in and i do not intend to imposed my beliefs to others. It is the right of every individual to believe whatever they believe in. The relationship between an individual and his/her God is personal. What i totally disagree is the claim that only a certain people have the exclusive right to use the word "Allah". Shalom my friend.
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written by cm2121, December 28, 2007 02:08:12
written by cm2121, December 28, 2007 02:08:12
Rohani, you mean to tell me that it's ok for East Malaysia but not ok for West Malaysia to use "Allah". Now.... that's a new one. 2 sets of different ruling for Malaysians. One for the East and one for the West. I couldn't recall our 'Learned' Johari said anything about that? Did you? Or did i miss something..
Another thing, in case you didn't notice, there are a lot of Malaysians from Sabah and Sarawak residing and working in West Malaysia... you mean to tell me that if they are in Semenanjung, they are forbidden to use the word "Allah" but it's ok if they are back in Sabah/Sarawak?
Another thing, in case you didn't notice, there are a lot of Malaysians from Sabah and Sarawak residing and working in West Malaysia... you mean to tell me that if they are in Semenanjung, they are forbidden to use the word "Allah" but it's ok if they are back in Sabah/Sarawak?
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 28, 2007 01:46:51
written by Rohani Hitam, December 28, 2007 01:46:51
cm2121,
Don't get me wrong. I meant churches here in West Malaysia to use "Allah" instead of Jesus or God or Father when conducting the mass or prayers to Christians in English or Chinese or Tamil but not in Malay.
Don't get me wrong. I meant churches here in West Malaysia to use "Allah" instead of Jesus or God or Father when conducting the mass or prayers to Christians in English or Chinese or Tamil but not in Malay.
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written by lokenpal, December 28, 2007 01:10:56
written by lokenpal, December 28, 2007 01:10:56
>>But it's blasphemy from a Christian point of view to say the Christian God is the Same as ANY other God.
Which bible school taught you that. God (s)is good and Christ was his son; well I think we are all his sons/daughters. Its your actions everyday that matter to God not your believe; neither your Sunday morning good clothes.
But I respect your view.
Which bible school taught you that. God (s)is good and Christ was his son; well I think we are all his sons/daughters. Its your actions everyday that matter to God not your believe; neither your Sunday morning good clothes.
But I respect your view.
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written by lokenpal, December 28, 2007 01:03:19
written by lokenpal, December 28, 2007 01:03:19
RPK:
I am not sure there is only one God; or that there is many. It all depends if you follow the abrahimic tradition or if you are a 'pagan'. And it all depend if your actions are good; even if you pray to a number of idols. This is hell and we do good to go to heavan; else u are back for second try. lol
I am not sure there is only one God; or that there is many. It all depends if you follow the abrahimic tradition or if you are a 'pagan'. And it all depend if your actions are good; even if you pray to a number of idols. This is hell and we do good to go to heavan; else u are back for second try. lol
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written by Terminator, December 28, 2007 00:06:04
written by Terminator, December 28, 2007 00:06:04
First of all ... nice face-lift !!!
Now for the no holds barred part ....
I am told and tend to believe that ... only in Islam that it says that there is ONE and ONLY ONE GOD and that is ALLAH !!! Everything and any other GOD is a '????'
other religions tends to say;
a) that this is OUR GOD and 'he could be the same for others'
b) there are many ways to GOD but let's not define GOD
c) pray to GOD but doesn't matter which as you will NEVER know
I guess this is why Islam is perceived to be a 'terrorist' religion when the 'JIHAD' term is increasingly taken out of context and practiced.
If everyone believes and acts consistently (against 'cakap tak serupa bikin') that religion is a personal-to-holder (PTH) issue and that it is between GOD and the individual, then there will be less headache for all. The problem is that in Malaysia, religion has become a political tool for the Government. Furthermore, there has been attempts to legalize via logic or otherwise the believes against Opposition abuse.
Against this perspective, are we surprised that there is an attempt to copyright and patent 'ALLAH' or the word for that matter .....
Now for the no holds barred part ....
I am told and tend to believe that ... only in Islam that it says that there is ONE and ONLY ONE GOD and that is ALLAH !!! Everything and any other GOD is a '????'
other religions tends to say;
a) that this is OUR GOD and 'he could be the same for others'
b) there are many ways to GOD but let's not define GOD
c) pray to GOD but doesn't matter which as you will NEVER know
I guess this is why Islam is perceived to be a 'terrorist' religion when the 'JIHAD' term is increasingly taken out of context and practiced.
If everyone believes and acts consistently (against 'cakap tak serupa bikin') that religion is a personal-to-holder (PTH) issue and that it is between GOD and the individual, then there will be less headache for all. The problem is that in Malaysia, religion has become a political tool for the Government. Furthermore, there has been attempts to legalize via logic or otherwise the believes against Opposition abuse.
Against this perspective, are we surprised that there is an attempt to copyright and patent 'ALLAH' or the word for that matter .....
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written by mimag2005, December 27, 2007 19:11:25
written by mimag2005, December 27, 2007 19:11:25
Dear cm2121,
Good evening
01 Why are you getting hot under the collar ?
02)My earlier message was directed to some zealots who were brazenly displaying their "Christianness"
03)I assure you that I believe in Jesus Ministry and am not attacking Christianity
-I believe in the miraculous birth of Jesus (without male intervention), by Almighty God’s design
-I believe Almighty God appointed Jesus to be His Messiah
-I believe Jesus kept and taught the Old Laws and Commandments including circumcision and forbidding
the consumption of the flesh of swine – Matt Ch 5 V 17/18
-I believe Jesus preach and taught the ONENESS of Almighty God, in line with the earlier teachings of Israelite Prophets
-I believe Jesus perform miracles by Almighty God’s permission
-After his sojourn, there came about 2 schools… one preach Unitarian Christianity ( as taught by Jesus) and the other preach Pauline Christianity ( whose main creed/doctrine was the Trinity and the Cricifixion of Jesus)
-I believe the Christianity taught and practised today is of the Pauline kind.
-I follow and practise the Unitarian kind taught by the Almighty God's Appointed/Anointed Prophets including Jesus
I hope my above crystal clear stand and beliefs on Jesus Ministry removes any misgivings.
Cheers !
Good evening
01 Why are you getting hot under the collar ?
02)My earlier message was directed to some zealots who were brazenly displaying their "Christianness"
03)I assure you that I believe in Jesus Ministry and am not attacking Christianity
-I believe in the miraculous birth of Jesus (without male intervention), by Almighty God’s design
-I believe Almighty God appointed Jesus to be His Messiah
-I believe Jesus kept and taught the Old Laws and Commandments including circumcision and forbidding
the consumption of the flesh of swine – Matt Ch 5 V 17/18
-I believe Jesus preach and taught the ONENESS of Almighty God, in line with the earlier teachings of Israelite Prophets
-I believe Jesus perform miracles by Almighty God’s permission
-After his sojourn, there came about 2 schools… one preach Unitarian Christianity ( as taught by Jesus) and the other preach Pauline Christianity ( whose main creed/doctrine was the Trinity and the Cricifixion of Jesus)
-I believe the Christianity taught and practised today is of the Pauline kind.
-I follow and practise the Unitarian kind taught by the Almighty God's Appointed/Anointed Prophets including Jesus
I hope my above crystal clear stand and beliefs on Jesus Ministry removes any misgivings.
Cheers !
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 27, 2007 17:55:54
written by Rohani Hitam, December 27, 2007 17:55:54
cm2121,
Don't get me wrong. I meant churches here in East Malaysia to use "Allah" instead of Jesus or God or Father when conducting the mass or prayers to Christians in English or Chinese or Tamil but not Malay.
Don't get me wrong. I meant churches here in East Malaysia to use "Allah" instead of Jesus or God or Father when conducting the mass or prayers to Christians in English or Chinese or Tamil but not Malay.
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written by cm2121, December 27, 2007 14:56:36
written by cm2121, December 27, 2007 14:56:36
P/S The word "Allah" in not only found in the sermons of Priests/Pastors but also in our prayers.
I think Allah would be delighted for us to share His Name. Don't you think so Rohani? Peace...
I think Allah would be delighted for us to share His Name. Don't you think so Rohani? Peace...
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written by cm2121, December 27, 2007 14:49:04
written by cm2121, December 27, 2007 14:49:04
To Rohani Hitam, yes we do use the word Allah in our Sunday service. We have been doing this for a long time already. In case you are not aware, the majority of Christians in Sabah and Sarawak are Malay speaking and not English as you would like to think. We have regular Bahasa Malaysia services week in, week out. No need for such test. You can go to any church in Sabah/Sarawak to witness this. There are no ulterior motives... you are welcome to witness such Bahasa masses if you want to & once and for all rid yourself of such insecurity. Peace be with you.
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 27, 2007 14:20:17
written by Rohani Hitam, December 27, 2007 14:20:17
cm2121 wrote:
We are running from the actual issue here... Does any one race can claim exclusive rights/usage to a word? I don't see the English claiming exclusive rights/usage to the word "GOD"... do they? Then why do the Malay Muslims claim exclusive rights/usage to the word "Allah"? It's not a word from their language anyway... Try telling the Arabic speaking Christians that they are forbidden to use the word "Allah"...
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If Christians in Malaysia are sincere about using the word "Allah" as an universal language where everyone has the right to use it then let put a simple test. During the coming Sunday mass, the priests or pastors should use the word "Allah" to describe God or Jesus at all times when delivering their sermon at the congregation or conducting their prayers in churches.
If this is done than I can see the reason why they are strongly coming up with. If not, then all these are a sham and absurdity bitting around the bush trying to potray a false intention.
We are running from the actual issue here... Does any one race can claim exclusive rights/usage to a word? I don't see the English claiming exclusive rights/usage to the word "GOD"... do they? Then why do the Malay Muslims claim exclusive rights/usage to the word "Allah"? It's not a word from their language anyway... Try telling the Arabic speaking Christians that they are forbidden to use the word "Allah"...
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If Christians in Malaysia are sincere about using the word "Allah" as an universal language where everyone has the right to use it then let put a simple test. During the coming Sunday mass, the priests or pastors should use the word "Allah" to describe God or Jesus at all times when delivering their sermon at the congregation or conducting their prayers in churches.
If this is done than I can see the reason why they are strongly coming up with. If not, then all these are a sham and absurdity bitting around the bush trying to potray a false intention.
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written by tom73my, December 27, 2007 12:09:36
written by tom73my, December 27, 2007 12:09:36
Have you guys read Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion? Trully an interesting perpective about God.
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written by cm2121, December 27, 2007 10:20:22
written by cm2121, December 27, 2007 10:20:22
To mimag2005,
I think you have taken a few verse from the Holy Bible and put it out of context just to suit your purpose. That is very irresponsible. Why don't you finish until Verse 26 and tell us what happened
to the said woman's daughter?
Dear mimag2005, you seem to know a bit about The Gospel... please explain Matthew 28:18-19, Mark 16:15-16, Luke 24:46. I got a feeling that you are not a Christian... but you seem to portray that
you are though.. But a Christian would never say what you have stated because like i said you are
taking the Bible verse out of context just to serve your purpose.
Why the sudden "attack" on Christianity... I thought this is about the idiotic ruling that only Muslims can use the word "Allah"... Now this is absurd.
I think you have taken a few verse from the Holy Bible and put it out of context just to suit your purpose. That is very irresponsible. Why don't you finish until Verse 26 and tell us what happened
to the said woman's daughter?
Dear mimag2005, you seem to know a bit about The Gospel... please explain Matthew 28:18-19, Mark 16:15-16, Luke 24:46. I got a feeling that you are not a Christian... but you seem to portray that
you are though.. But a Christian would never say what you have stated because like i said you are
taking the Bible verse out of context just to serve your purpose.
Why the sudden "attack" on Christianity... I thought this is about the idiotic ruling that only Muslims can use the word "Allah"... Now this is absurd.
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written by glock17, December 27, 2007 09:06:45
written by glock17, December 27, 2007 09:06:45
I disagree with AMMNOPUTRAS Datuk Johari prohibiting the term ALLAH solely to Muslim. Anyway, what does this PJ (pendidkan jasmani) ex-cikgu knows about Christianity which are from the same branch from Abraham in the early days of bible and torah.
The Christian Arabs uses the term Allah when refering to the Al Mighty..why can't a Christian Dayak or Christian Iban or Christian Indonesian apply the same in Bahasa Malaysia or Bahasa Indonesia bible??. Heck...PLO Mahmud Abbas even attended Christmas Eve in the Nativity Church where the term Allah is pronounce several times during the congregation...none of the PLO Muslims warlords brandished AK47 or protest about it.
I guess only in Boleh Land...anything is possible by Ammnoputras to sabotage true racial and religious harmony..this dirty tactics are aimed to maintain Amnoputras as MalayMuslim saviors and gain major landslide votes based on lies after lies.
I do think we all have enough of tis Ammno craps...what say you and I to vote them out for good ?
Glock
The Christian Arabs uses the term Allah when refering to the Al Mighty..why can't a Christian Dayak or Christian Iban or Christian Indonesian apply the same in Bahasa Malaysia or Bahasa Indonesia bible??. Heck...PLO Mahmud Abbas even attended Christmas Eve in the Nativity Church where the term Allah is pronounce several times during the congregation...none of the PLO Muslims warlords brandished AK47 or protest about it.
I guess only in Boleh Land...anything is possible by Ammnoputras to sabotage true racial and religious harmony..this dirty tactics are aimed to maintain Amnoputras as MalayMuslim saviors and gain major landslide votes based on lies after lies.
I do think we all have enough of tis Ammno craps...what say you and I to vote them out for good ?
Glock
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written by fandi, December 27, 2007 08:50:09
written by fandi, December 27, 2007 08:50:09
Everyone is god's creature, so what the hell are we arguing,is it not when the exams come you ask the help of God to pass the exam.You do not ask your father's or mother's help.This applies to even the non believers, even atheist when desparation come you seek god's help.In mind you have one god so damned with religion because in religion we have wars, all because of the interpreters, who think they are smarter then anyone else, and thir sheep. When the time comes when people think alike and no enmity will then be the end of the world.Think before thou speak which sheep r u.????
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written by Fartkor, December 27, 2007 08:05:58
written by Fartkor, December 27, 2007 08:05:58
I like these, quoting RPK:
"Harley Davidson has sole use of the sound that is emitted from the exhaust pipes of its motorcycles and the Japanese, Germans, Italians, etc., may not build motorcycles that produce the same sound as the Harley Davidson motorcycle. That is like Britney Spears patenting the sound of her fart. Can you imagine no one being allowed to release a fart that sounds like hers?"
I think I've beaten Britney to it, I've got my fart registered,,,,even my username also speaks of it!!! hahaha Heh,,,dare anyone to fart
"Harley Davidson has sole use of the sound that is emitted from the exhaust pipes of its motorcycles and the Japanese, Germans, Italians, etc., may not build motorcycles that produce the same sound as the Harley Davidson motorcycle. That is like Britney Spears patenting the sound of her fart. Can you imagine no one being allowed to release a fart that sounds like hers?"
I think I've beaten Britney to it, I've got my fart registered,,,,even my username also speaks of it!!! hahaha
Heh,,,dare anyone to fart
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written by mimag2005, December 27, 2007 07:33:15
written by mimag2005, December 27, 2007 07:33:15
Hi Rohani,
You wrote. in 5th para......." Christians see benefit in using the term Allah as it may attract Muslims or at least to create an intersts among the Muslims. Christians have long trying hard to attract conversion as the message to spread the religion among the Gentiles is a duty to all Christians. "......
According to The Christian Church Elders , Lord Jesus Christ was sent to this world to save all MANKIND ! ( which include Gentiles (outside of House of Israel), Indians, Chinese, Malays, Asians, eskimos... YOU NAME IT )
Let us ask Lord Jesus Christ was he sent for such an assignment.
This was his reply !
Matthew Ch 15 V 22/24....And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto
him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is
grievously vexed with a devil.
But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him,
saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of
Israel.
Matthew Ch 10 V 5/6.. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way
of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
So Miss Rohani,
cc Jedyoong (u r welcome to give your piece )
Following questions need to be sincerely answered.
01) Besides the 12 Israeli Tribes, which other community qualify to be " The Lost Sheep of the House of
Israel " ?
02) Our Saviour qualified his mission for " a particular community ".(So did earlier Israelite
prophets).
But our Church Elders teach otherwise...
Who to believe ????
Please share your enlightened heaven with us by shedding some light.
Mucho gracias !
You wrote. in 5th para......." Christians see benefit in using the term Allah as it may attract Muslims or at least to create an intersts among the Muslims. Christians have long trying hard to attract conversion as the message to spread the religion among the Gentiles is a duty to all Christians. "......
According to The Christian Church Elders , Lord Jesus Christ was sent to this world to save all MANKIND ! ( which include Gentiles (outside of House of Israel), Indians, Chinese, Malays, Asians, eskimos... YOU NAME IT )
Let us ask Lord Jesus Christ was he sent for such an assignment.
This was his reply !
Matthew Ch 15 V 22/24....And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto
him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is
grievously vexed with a devil.
But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him,
saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of
Israel.
Matthew Ch 10 V 5/6.. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way
of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
So Miss Rohani,
cc Jedyoong (u r welcome to give your piece )
Following questions need to be sincerely answered.
01) Besides the 12 Israeli Tribes, which other community qualify to be " The Lost Sheep of the House of
Israel " ?
02) Our Saviour qualified his mission for " a particular community ".(So did earlier Israelite
prophets).
But our Church Elders teach otherwise...
Who to believe ????
Please share your enlightened heaven with us by shedding some light.
Mucho gracias !
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written by Malaysiaku, December 27, 2007 07:09:31
written by Malaysiaku, December 27, 2007 07:09:31
Seems like many of you have digressed. We should not be arguing about which God is the only God. God is between you and HIM. The crux of the matter is the Govt's ban on the use of Allah amongst non-Muslims. Hmmmm, could this be a ploy from the 4th floor to get the people from uniting?
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written by kedahan63, December 27, 2007 07:03:34
written by kedahan63, December 27, 2007 07:03:34
In reply 2 KM Wong - Isuspect pple like jed don believe in the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Christ. I get the impression that they don't, can't or not allowed to believe unless their church leaders tell them to believe.
In reply 2 Jedyoong - your church elders want pple to believe that a) the Iranian president's Mission in Life is to start WW3/destruction of the Christian World by nuking the Isrealis (Iran's nuke program is no longer active as recently divulged by the US CIA, but was actively promoted as active by one of your own, Bush Jr.) and b) the Devil's minions all look like the baddies in the Power Rangers kiddies show or even like the Power Rangers themselves. I believe there are VCDs promoting these two believes/views being circulated amongst the Evangelical Churches in Malaysia. If the Holy Book of the 3 world religions refer to the same GOD (or not), y fight over it? For all we know, we're all looking at the same mountain for many different side (P.O.V). Question - how many "brownie" points would you earn or what is in stroe for you if you convert your non-believing siblings over?
to RPK - I'd almost wanted to report abuse on jedyoong's comments but caught myself in time. Realized that by doing so would only walk me down Hadhari's path or albeit a parallel non-islam one.
In reply 2 Jedyoong - your church elders want pple to believe that a) the Iranian president's Mission in Life is to start WW3/destruction of the Christian World by nuking the Isrealis (Iran's nuke program is no longer active as recently divulged by the US CIA, but was actively promoted as active by one of your own, Bush Jr.) and b) the Devil's minions all look like the baddies in the Power Rangers kiddies show or even like the Power Rangers themselves. I believe there are VCDs promoting these two believes/views being circulated amongst the Evangelical Churches in Malaysia. If the Holy Book of the 3 world religions refer to the same GOD (or not), y fight over it? For all we know, we're all looking at the same mountain for many different side (P.O.V). Question - how many "brownie" points would you earn or what is in stroe for you if you convert your non-believing siblings over?
to RPK - I'd almost wanted to report abuse on jedyoong's comments but caught myself in time. Realized that by doing so would only walk me down Hadhari's path or albeit a parallel non-islam one.
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written by Loh, December 27, 2007 04:53:03
written by Loh, December 27, 2007 04:53:03
///But these people from the good religion want the government to do bad things. That is what troubles me to no end. How can a good religion make people want to be bad?///
A few bad people from the good religion represent the government with the power to do bad things, and blamed the bad things done in accordance with the wishes of the people in the name of democracy. The people from the good religion voted in the government occupied by a few bad people from the good religion. All religions are good, and religious people are good too. There are always bad sheeps in a flock. It is the people who use religion for their own good are bad, and when the bad people who claimed that they acted on the support of the people makes the supporters associated with bad actions, and thus make good people from good religion looked bad.
A few bad people from the good religion represent the government with the power to do bad things, and blamed the bad things done in accordance with the wishes of the people in the name of democracy. The people from the good religion voted in the government occupied by a few bad people from the good religion. All religions are good, and religious people are good too. There are always bad sheeps in a flock. It is the people who use religion for their own good are bad, and when the bad people who claimed that they acted on the support of the people makes the supporters associated with bad actions, and thus make good people from good religion looked bad.
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written by cm2121, December 27, 2007 04:17:07
written by cm2121, December 27, 2007 04:17:07
Dear All,
No one can deny the fact that Christian Doctrines and Islamic Doctrines are totally at odds. Two different doctrines comes from two different source. It cannot come from ONE SOURCE because both contradicts one another. At this stage, to avoid making matters worse, we should agree to disagree. And no one should force his/her idea of "God" to one another. Stating ones' beliefs is not actually saying you should believe "what i believe". If whatever you and i believe in is deeply rooted (Christians or Muslims..or Buddhism.. Hinduism etc), whatever you and i say or do will not change anything.
We are running from the actual issue here... Does any one race can claim exclusive rights/usage to a word? I don't see the English claiming exclusive rights/usage to the word "GOD"... do they? Then why do the Malay Muslims claim exclusive rights/usage to the word "Allah"? It's not a word from their language anyway... Try telling the Arabic speaking Christians that they are forbidden to use the word "Allah"...
No one can deny the fact that Christian Doctrines and Islamic Doctrines are totally at odds. Two different doctrines comes from two different source. It cannot come from ONE SOURCE because both contradicts one another. At this stage, to avoid making matters worse, we should agree to disagree. And no one should force his/her idea of "God" to one another. Stating ones' beliefs is not actually saying you should believe "what i believe". If whatever you and i believe in is deeply rooted (Christians or Muslims..or Buddhism.. Hinduism etc), whatever you and i say or do will not change anything.
We are running from the actual issue here... Does any one race can claim exclusive rights/usage to a word? I don't see the English claiming exclusive rights/usage to the word "GOD"... do they? Then why do the Malay Muslims claim exclusive rights/usage to the word "Allah"? It's not a word from their language anyway... Try telling the Arabic speaking Christians that they are forbidden to use the word "Allah"...
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written by Semut Jantan, December 27, 2007 03:20:02
written by Semut Jantan, December 27, 2007 03:20:02
True God worshipper = True God worshipped, if one abides by the 10-steps aforementioned.
Anyone who happens to live in a deep remote mountain who uses no names, much less a religious affiliation tagged to his beliefs (we have fancy bodies called Muslims, Christianiy, Buddhist, etc.); if he or she follows those 10-steps aforementioned, he or she is a true worhipper and he or she worships the One True God.
Follow those prescriptions and then we talk, caprise? Maybe we do not have to talk (debate) after that because we are on the same page. There will be no wars, not even a verbal one.
Semut
Anyone who happens to live in a deep remote mountain who uses no names, much less a religious affiliation tagged to his beliefs (we have fancy bodies called Muslims, Christianiy, Buddhist, etc.); if he or she follows those 10-steps aforementioned, he or she is a true worhipper and he or she worships the One True God.
Follow those prescriptions and then we talk, caprise? Maybe we do not have to talk (debate) after that because we are on the same page. There will be no wars, not even a verbal one.
Semut
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written by ctm999, December 27, 2007 02:39:56
written by ctm999, December 27, 2007 02:39:56
Hey Jedyoong,
I'm a Christian myself. If you would just do some research and more open minded you would know that the Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God because there is only one God in this world. It all begin with Abraham who have 2 sons - Ishmael and Isaac. Isaac is the grandfather of the 12 tribes that became Israel (the Jews).Jesus is born as a Jew to be their redeemer king. Ishmael also have 12 sons which became the Arab tribes from whence the Muslim faith came. If you are serious about your faith and serious about the truth go read the Quran too. In many of the books God through Prophet Muhammad continue to call the Israelites back to him. They (the Jews) are still his first choice.
I'm a Christian myself. If you would just do some research and more open minded you would know that the Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God because there is only one God in this world. It all begin with Abraham who have 2 sons - Ishmael and Isaac. Isaac is the grandfather of the 12 tribes that became Israel (the Jews).Jesus is born as a Jew to be their redeemer king. Ishmael also have 12 sons which became the Arab tribes from whence the Muslim faith came. If you are serious about your faith and serious about the truth go read the Quran too. In many of the books God through Prophet Muhammad continue to call the Israelites back to him. They (the Jews) are still his first choice.
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written by Semut Jantan, December 27, 2007 02:19:12
written by Semut Jantan, December 27, 2007 02:19:12
HRH RPK and Jedyoong:
I read with interest some of your comments. The article written is superb; good job HRH RPK. Jedyoong, you are trying hard to express your opinions about Christianity; good efforts. Please allow me to contribute my 2-cents.
There is only One God. The Almighty stretches out his hand to us (e.g. a million$ cheque offered); we need to raise our hand to connect with the Almighty (cashing the cheques). How? By driving to the bank, openning an account with bank; endorsing the cheque; depositing the cheque; checking with the bank to make sure the cheque does not bounce, etc. It takes two to tango. Enough said, here are the 10 steps to 'cash' the cheque to get hook up with The Almighty. I am paraphrasing.
1) Worship only The One True God.
2) Do not worship idols, images.
3) Do not use The Almighty God's name lightly or carelessly or profit from IT materially.
4) Remember to keep the Sabbath Day (Saturday) Holy. (99% of Christians are out, 100% Muslims are not in, 70% of Jews are excluded, hello?)
5) Honor your parents.
6) Do not kill (not even C4).
7) Do not look at opposite sex lustfully, worse, do not go for it outside of your marriage.
Do not steal (hello, anyone out there? Umnoputras?)
9) Do not bear false witnesses ('Lingamed' the judges, new verb for appointing; hello, is there a case?)
10) Do not covet what are not yours (I didn't see any hands up, especially BNputras' hands)
Everybody wants to talk about the superiority of their 'GODS'. But no one wants to abide by the Almighty's Voice (Words).
The Almighty must be very disappointed. All the disscussion boils down to nil. Sad to say but true.
Keep searching all, one day you may be able to cash the cheque.
Thank you for reading.
Anak kampong from New York City.
I read with interest some of your comments. The article written is superb; good job HRH RPK. Jedyoong, you are trying hard to express your opinions about Christianity; good efforts. Please allow me to contribute my 2-cents.
There is only One God. The Almighty stretches out his hand to us (e.g. a million$ cheque offered); we need to raise our hand to connect with the Almighty (cashing the cheques). How? By driving to the bank, openning an account with bank; endorsing the cheque; depositing the cheque; checking with the bank to make sure the cheque does not bounce, etc. It takes two to tango. Enough said, here are the 10 steps to 'cash' the cheque to get hook up with The Almighty. I am paraphrasing.
1) Worship only The One True God.
2) Do not worship idols, images.
3) Do not use The Almighty God's name lightly or carelessly or profit from IT materially.
4) Remember to keep the Sabbath Day (Saturday) Holy. (99% of Christians are out, 100% Muslims are not in, 70% of Jews are excluded, hello?)
5) Honor your parents.
6) Do not kill (not even C4).
7) Do not look at opposite sex lustfully, worse, do not go for it outside of your marriage.
Do not steal (hello, anyone out there? Umnoputras?) 9) Do not bear false witnesses ('Lingamed' the judges, new verb for appointing; hello, is there a case?)
10) Do not covet what are not yours (I didn't see any hands up, especially BNputras' hands)
Everybody wants to talk about the superiority of their 'GODS'. But no one wants to abide by the Almighty's Voice (Words).
The Almighty must be very disappointed. All the disscussion boils down to nil. Sad to say but true.
Keep searching all, one day you may be able to cash the cheque.
Thank you for reading.
Anak kampong from New York City.
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written by wongnoball, December 27, 2007 01:56:33
written by wongnoball, December 27, 2007 01:56:33
....... halal this ...... haram that .........
..........Christian this ..... and Islam that .....
So .... the party is coming to an end .....
"Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated"
..........Christian this ..... and Islam that .....
So .... the party is coming to an end .....
"Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated"
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written by KM Wong, December 27, 2007 01:53:41
written by KM Wong, December 27, 2007 01:53:41
Dear Jedyoong,
Only totally insecure people will be brainwashed into saying their god is the ONLY god. This reflects on their so called ONLY god, whoever they think is. It's this lack of understanding that breeds "taliban" type of Christians, thinking they are saving the world. And all their sins can be cleansed by saying a few "Hail Marys".
A lot of you must have heard of those fanatic (taliban style if you follow the new vocabulary) christians who hang out in terminally ill wards in hospitals preying on the patients' next of kin who are feeling hopelessly down, saying their prayers will save them. If for some reason the patient survives they claim the credit of their prayers but if the patient dies they say God loves the person so much that he/she is needed by God's side!! So either way, the christian wins. So much for blind faith. But things don't work this way in the real world. I'm offered bets to these leeches before that if their prayers can save a terminally ill patient, I'll join them but if the patient dies, then he/she joins me (give up the fanatical faith construed by their pastors to milk them). All these years, no takers for they are sure to lose and have to give up their so called ONLY God.
Religion is good to guide your lifepath but don't let those misinterpreters lead you astray to fanaticism.
Only totally insecure people will be brainwashed into saying their god is the ONLY god. This reflects on their so called ONLY god, whoever they think is. It's this lack of understanding that breeds "taliban" type of Christians, thinking they are saving the world. And all their sins can be cleansed by saying a few "Hail Marys".
A lot of you must have heard of those fanatic (taliban style if you follow the new vocabulary) christians who hang out in terminally ill wards in hospitals preying on the patients' next of kin who are feeling hopelessly down, saying their prayers will save them. If for some reason the patient survives they claim the credit of their prayers but if the patient dies they say God loves the person so much that he/she is needed by God's side!! So either way, the christian wins. So much for blind faith. But things don't work this way in the real world. I'm offered bets to these leeches before that if their prayers can save a terminally ill patient, I'll join them but if the patient dies, then he/she joins me (give up the fanatical faith construed by their pastors to milk them). All these years, no takers for they are sure to lose and have to give up their so called ONLY God.
Religion is good to guide your lifepath but don't let those misinterpreters lead you astray to fanaticism.
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written by stchin, December 26, 2007 22:19:42
written by stchin, December 26, 2007 22:19:42
...he...he...he...ha..ha..ha.......go on ...keep arguing, quarreling ...who wins !!??
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written by mimag2005, December 26, 2007 20:08:01
written by mimag2005, December 26, 2007 20:08:01
Hi Jedyoong,
How you doing ?
I envy your conviction and passion with your Christian Doctrines on LOVE and Turning the other cheek.
BTW I came across following :
....."But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me "....
Who spoke such words ??
... Clue....
1) Hitler or
2) Bush or
3) Mao Tze Tung or
4) Saddam or
5) Jesus
Salute to your passionate conviction !
Cheers
How you doing ?
I envy your conviction and passion with your Christian Doctrines on LOVE and Turning the other cheek.
BTW I came across following :
....."But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me "....
Who spoke such words ??
... Clue....
1) Hitler or
2) Bush or
3) Mao Tze Tung or
4) Saddam or
5) Jesus
Salute to your passionate conviction !
Cheers
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written by Panca Indera, December 26, 2007 17:42:26
written by Panca Indera, December 26, 2007 17:42:26
Salam to all,
"So how can only Muslims be allowed use of the word 'Allah' while all others are banned from using this word?"
This ruling made by people whose understanding of Islam is causing embarrassment to all alike, is the result of closed society as RPK rightly pointed out. that's why Jihad(struggle) is necessary. There is no easy way to get the ticket or direct entry to Jannah.
note: Your work on Malaysia Kini is an Outstanding example of personal Jihad, RPK.
You have my respect.
Remember, the best of the 99 Names God gives Himself is ALLAH(His preferred name).
Lord of the Worlds, galaxies(any life form too) and the whole Universe.
He who created anything and everything from nothing except by His Command," Be and It is"
He created the whole universe and everything in it. Creating Adam without both parents is no big deal for HIM and neither is creating Jesus PBUH from Virgin Mary.
Looking at the present scenario, The Islamic Republic of Iran is the only recourse left for Muslims to fight for justice(All the rest have no marbles) and that is precisely why everyone else would like to topple it.
Looking forward to the Mahdi PBUH and Jesus PBUH second coming soon!
"So how can only Muslims be allowed use of the word 'Allah' while all others are banned from using this word?"
This ruling made by people whose understanding of Islam is causing embarrassment to all alike, is the result of closed society as RPK rightly pointed out. that's why Jihad(struggle) is necessary. There is no easy way to get the ticket or direct entry to Jannah.
note: Your work on Malaysia Kini is an Outstanding example of personal Jihad, RPK.
You have my respect.
Remember, the best of the 99 Names God gives Himself is ALLAH(His preferred name).
Lord of the Worlds, galaxies(any life form too) and the whole Universe.
He who created anything and everything from nothing except by His Command," Be and It is"
He created the whole universe and everything in it. Creating Adam without both parents is no big deal for HIM and neither is creating Jesus PBUH from Virgin Mary.
Looking at the present scenario, The Islamic Republic of Iran is the only recourse left for Muslims to fight for justice(All the rest have no marbles) and that is precisely why everyone else would like to topple it.
Looking forward to the Mahdi PBUH and Jesus PBUH second coming soon!
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written by Suresh, December 26, 2007 15:11:29
written by Suresh, December 26, 2007 15:11:29
Rohani Hitam wrote :-
Politics aside, the word Allah adopted in the Al-Quran has Jewish origin. Ela or Elohim was used in early Jewish scrptures to denote supreme being. Early Christians did not use Ela or Elohim to describe God. But Muslims continue to use the word Allah to describe God till today.
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The term ELOHIM is actually a plural of the word EL with the the word itself meaning His Greatness or Mightiness.
In the Book of Genesis the ELOHIM is clearly mentioned in the early versions when the Elohim made man in their image when the decision to create man was made collectively then.
Hence the word Ela or its extentions were similarly generated and exercised by followers to precisely extul the Great One being worshipped.Though in the beginning the term Elohim was clearly meant to show a congregation of Higher Beings ("Gods") to that effect.
Politics aside, the word Allah adopted in the Al-Quran has Jewish origin. Ela or Elohim was used in early Jewish scrptures to denote supreme being. Early Christians did not use Ela or Elohim to describe God. But Muslims continue to use the word Allah to describe God till today.
=======================================================
============================================
The term ELOHIM is actually a plural of the word EL with the the word itself meaning His Greatness or Mightiness.
In the Book of Genesis the ELOHIM is clearly mentioned in the early versions when the Elohim made man in their image when the decision to create man was made collectively then.
Hence the word Ela or its extentions were similarly generated and exercised by followers to precisely extul the Great One being worshipped.Though in the beginning the term Elohim was clearly meant to show a congregation of Higher Beings ("Gods") to that effect.
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written by salakkan, December 26, 2007 13:08:38
written by salakkan, December 26, 2007 13:08:38
{"...written by Chaptokam, December 25, 2007 | 00:45:47
You end up with broken family ties where one of them is a convert , and eventually they go different ways. ..."}
Not necessarily. In many countries you have Muslims and Non living under one roof ! And pleasantly surprising, it does happen in Indonesia!
In Malaysia there a few Muslim families having non Muslims living together in an extended family manner.
I know of a few. Why the heck should I tell JAKIM? The bloody Pharisees!!!
You end up with broken family ties where one of them is a convert , and eventually they go different ways. ..."}
Not necessarily. In many countries you have Muslims and Non living under one roof ! And pleasantly surprising, it does happen in Indonesia!
In Malaysia there a few Muslim families having non Muslims living together in an extended family manner.
I know of a few. Why the heck should I tell JAKIM? The bloody Pharisees!!!
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written by CrazyPig, December 26, 2007 11:57:00
written by CrazyPig, December 26, 2007 11:57:00
Ladies & Gents, please go buy and read a book "Malaysia And The Club Of Doom".
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written by Wudan, December 26, 2007 07:38:26
written by Wudan, December 26, 2007 07:38:26
Now I understood that 'God is not Allah and there is no one but Allah, the one and only God. Jed is a woman. Admin, thanks for the priviledge
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written by TWOG, December 26, 2007 06:31:39
written by TWOG, December 26, 2007 06:31:39
It is interesting to follow the etymology of the word "haram" - how it transformed itself from a word with positive connotation to one with negative connotation. From "sacred" to "forbidden". It is almost a parallel to the English word "sanction" which used to be positive (to approve), and now is meantly mostly in the negative sense as in "to impose sanctions on Burma for its human rights violations."
Also interesting is that "haram" is derived from "harem". So, is keeping a harem haram or halal?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haram
Also interesting is that "haram" is derived from "harem". So, is keeping a harem haram or halal?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haram
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written by cruzeiro, December 26, 2007 04:13:39
written by cruzeiro, December 26, 2007 04:13:39
As a matter of fact, I too was initially quite upset to hear it being used in churches/ prayers, without really understanding the context of usage. As of now, I don't really have much problems with it, despite knowing for a fact that the Arabic word for "God" is actually "I-LLah", although "Allah" is also used interchangeably.
The way I look at it, it's just a matter of semantics.
Some look upon the word "Allah" as a word for "God"; and others, look upon it as a name for their God - it's as simple as that.
http://cruzinthots.b******t.co...-name.html
The way I look at it, it's just a matter of semantics.
Some look upon the word "Allah" as a word for "God"; and others, look upon it as a name for their God - it's as simple as that.
http://cruzinthots.b******t.co...-name.html
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written by cruzeiro, December 26, 2007 04:13:37
written by cruzeiro, December 26, 2007 04:13:37
As a matter of fact, I too was initially quite upset to hear it being used in churches/ prayers, without really understanding the context of usage. As of now, I don't really have much problems with it, despite knowing for a fact that the Arabic word for "God" is actually "I-LLah", although "Allah" is also used interchangeably.
The way I look at it, it's just a matter of semantics.
Some look upon the word "Allah" as a word for "God"; and others, look upon it as a name for their God - it's as simple as that.
http://cruzinthots.b******t.co...-name.html
The way I look at it, it's just a matter of semantics.
Some look upon the word "Allah" as a word for "God"; and others, look upon it as a name for their God - it's as simple as that.
http://cruzinthots.b******t.co...-name.html
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written by Bukit Chandan, December 26, 2007 03:21:42
written by Bukit Chandan, December 26, 2007 03:21:42
Pete,
1. We would like to highlight a very important issue that has cropped up lately. There is no extremism in Islam. Islam is a perfect religion as we have already explained in our previous commentary.
Allah s.w.t. says in the Holy Quran Chapter 1: Verse 143 which means "And We have indeed made you (Islamic Ummah) an Ummatan Wasatan so as you can be the witness to (the deeds of) all mankind and so as the Prophet (Muhammad s.a.w.) can be the witness to you (deeds of the Islamic Ummah)".
From this verse, the phrase 'Ummatan Wasatan' means that an ummah who is just and the chosen one. This ummah will be the witness to all the deeds of the people that deviate from the truth be it in this world or in the Hereafter.
2. Also, the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. said which means "The best among you are the ones that do things in moderation". Moderation here refers to the characteristic of the 'Ummatan Wasatan' above.
3. From points 1 and 2, it shows that Islam does not preach extremism. In fact, the term "Islamic extremists" is being used in error to refer to "terrorists". The word "extremism" is not being properly used. This is because the people who used them do not understand Islam in a comprehensive way i.e. Islam as a way of life. The analogy here is like the story of the 3 blind men who tried to comprehend the different parts of an elephant. If all Muslims and non-Muslims really understand Islam in a comprehensive way, there would not be any "Islamic extremism" said by anyone in this world.
4. Aside to this issue, we found one flaw in our improvement plan during our review. Thus far, our improvement plan does not include the voters in general. So, in tying up this loose end and to ensure fairness to all, we will also implement Phase 12 - Cleanse the voters of corruption, ignorance of the truth and bad external influence. We do not want the citizens to elect candidates who are known as corrupted, incompetent and associated with the organized crime syndicates/communists candidates. This is to ensure the safety of our country and not to put her in jeopardy in the future.
Going into stealth mode again. Securing communications over long distances through telepathy. Over and out.......
Improvement Plan Status 26-Dec-07
=============================
Phase Action Start Date
---------------------------------
1 Cleanse the SPR 26-Nov-07
2 Cleanse the Cabinet (especially BN) 08-Dec-07
3 Cleanse the Judiciary 28-Nov-07
4 Cleanse the Police/FRU/ACA/ATM/Etc 01-Dec-07
5 Cleanse the Mainstream Media 02-Dec-07
6 Cleanse the Government Servants (Federal & States) 11-Dec-07
7 Eradicate underworld organized crime syndicates 15-Dec-07
8 Eradicate the communists 16-Dec-07
9 Cleanse the Religious Departments (Federal & States) 22-Dec-07
10 Cleanse UMNO 10-Dec-07
11 Cleanse NGOs and Businesses 10-Dec-07
12 Cleanse the voters 01-Jan-08
Phase Improvement Plan Date Line
-------------------------------------------------
1 Cleanse the SPR 31-Jan-08
2 Cleanse the Cabinet (especially BN) 10-Nov-08
3 Cleanse the Judiciary 29-Feb-08
4 Cleanse the Police/FRU/ACA/ATM/Etc 30-Jun-08
5 Cleanse the Mainstream Media 31-Mar-08
6 Cleanse the Government Servants (Federal & States) 31-Dec-08
7 Eradicate underworld organized crime syndicates 30-Jun-09
8 Eradicate the communists 31-Dec-09
9 Cleanse the Religious Departments (Federal & States) 31-Dec-08
10 Cleanse UMNO 31-Dec-07
11 Cleanse NGOs and Businesses 31-Jan-08
12 Cleanse the voters 30-Apr-08
The metrics to be used to gauge the performances and results of the Improvement Plan are as follows:
Phase Metrics
--------------------
1 Clean SPR 100% of corruption and abuse of authority
2.1 Clean the Cabinet 99% of corruption and abuse of power
2.2 Restore 100% the original powers of the DYMM SPB YDPA and Conference of Rulers
3 Clean the Judiciary 100% of corruption and abuse of Justice
4 Clean the Police/FRU/ACA/ATM/Etc 99% of corruption and abuse of authority
5 Clean the Government Servants 99% of corruption and abuse of responsibilities
6 Clean the Mainstream Media 99% of corruption and biased journalism
7 Eradicate the country 100% of underworld organized crime syndicates
8 Eradicate the country 100% of communists
9 Clean the Religious Departments 100% of all corruption and abuse of responsibilities
10 Clean UMNO 99% of corruption and traitors to the YDPA, Malay Rulers and the Malays
11 Clean NGOs and Businesses 99% of corruption and unethical business practices
12 Clean the voters 99% of corruption, ignorance of the truth and bad external influences
Note: The implementation phases can be carried out concurrently.
Best Regards.........
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1. We would like to highlight a very important issue that has cropped up lately. There is no extremism in Islam. Islam is a perfect religion as we have already explained in our previous commentary.
Allah s.w.t. says in the Holy Quran Chapter 1: Verse 143 which means "And We have indeed made you (Islamic Ummah) an Ummatan Wasatan so as you can be the witness to (the deeds of) all mankind and so as the Prophet (Muhammad s.a.w.) can be the witness to you (deeds of the Islamic Ummah)".
From this verse, the phrase 'Ummatan Wasatan' means that an ummah who is just and the chosen one. This ummah will be the witness to all the deeds of the people that deviate from the truth be it in this world or in the Hereafter.
2. Also, the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. said which means "The best among you are the ones that do things in moderation". Moderation here refers to the characteristic of the 'Ummatan Wasatan' above.
3. From points 1 and 2, it shows that Islam does not preach extremism. In fact, the term "Islamic extremists" is being used in error to refer to "terrorists". The word "extremism" is not being properly used. This is because the people who used them do not understand Islam in a comprehensive way i.e. Islam as a way of life. The analogy here is like the story of the 3 blind men who tried to comprehend the different parts of an elephant. If all Muslims and non-Muslims really understand Islam in a comprehensive way, there would not be any "Islamic extremism" said by anyone in this world.
4. Aside to this issue, we found one flaw in our improvement plan during our review. Thus far, our improvement plan does not include the voters in general. So, in tying up this loose end and to ensure fairness to all, we will also implement Phase 12 - Cleanse the voters of corruption, ignorance of the truth and bad external influence. We do not want the citizens to elect candidates who are known as corrupted, incompetent and associated with the organized crime syndicates/communists candidates. This is to ensure the safety of our country and not to put her in jeopardy in the future.
Going into stealth mode again. Securing communications over long distances through telepathy. Over and out.......
Improvement Plan Status 26-Dec-07
=============================
Phase Action Start Date
---------------------------------
1 Cleanse the SPR 26-Nov-07
2 Cleanse the Cabinet (especially BN) 08-Dec-07
3 Cleanse the Judiciary 28-Nov-07
4 Cleanse the Police/FRU/ACA/ATM/Etc 01-Dec-07
5 Cleanse the Mainstream Media 02-Dec-07
6 Cleanse the Government Servants (Federal & States) 11-Dec-07
7 Eradicate underworld organized crime syndicates 15-Dec-07
8 Eradicate the communists 16-Dec-07
9 Cleanse the Religious Departments (Federal & States) 22-Dec-07
10 Cleanse UMNO 10-Dec-07
11 Cleanse NGOs and Businesses 10-Dec-07
12 Cleanse the voters 01-Jan-08
Phase Improvement Plan Date Line
-------------------------------------------------
1 Cleanse the SPR 31-Jan-08
2 Cleanse the Cabinet (especially BN) 10-Nov-08
3 Cleanse the Judiciary 29-Feb-08
4 Cleanse the Police/FRU/ACA/ATM/Etc 30-Jun-08
5 Cleanse the Mainstream Media 31-Mar-08
6 Cleanse the Government Servants (Federal & States) 31-Dec-08
7 Eradicate underworld organized crime syndicates 30-Jun-09
8 Eradicate the communists 31-Dec-09
9 Cleanse the Religious Departments (Federal & States) 31-Dec-08
10 Cleanse UMNO 31-Dec-07
11 Cleanse NGOs and Businesses 31-Jan-08
12 Cleanse the voters 30-Apr-08
The metrics to be used to gauge the performances and results of the Improvement Plan are as follows:
Phase Metrics
--------------------
1 Clean SPR 100% of corruption and abuse of authority
2.1 Clean the Cabinet 99% of corruption and abuse of power
2.2 Restore 100% the original powers of the DYMM SPB YDPA and Conference of Rulers
3 Clean the Judiciary 100% of corruption and abuse of Justice
4 Clean the Police/FRU/ACA/ATM/Etc 99% of corruption and abuse of authority
5 Clean the Government Servants 99% of corruption and abuse of responsibilities
6 Clean the Mainstream Media 99% of corruption and biased journalism
7 Eradicate the country 100% of underworld organized crime syndicates
8 Eradicate the country 100% of communists
9 Clean the Religious Departments 100% of all corruption and abuse of responsibilities
10 Clean UMNO 99% of corruption and traitors to the YDPA, Malay Rulers and the Malays
11 Clean NGOs and Businesses 99% of corruption and unethical business practices
12 Clean the voters 99% of corruption, ignorance of the truth and bad external influences
Note: The implementation phases can be carried out concurrently.
Best Regards.........
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written by malaysianohope, December 26, 2007 03:00:13
written by malaysianohope, December 26, 2007 03:00:13
Then again to see whether they can have proprietary over the use of the word Allah, try registering it with the patent bodies overseas, like Mcdonald as for burgers.
They would be laughed at silly!
They would be laughed at silly!
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written by Sudahlah tu, December 26, 2007 01:10:00
written by Sudahlah tu, December 26, 2007 01:10:00
Dari segi agama tu, amat susah kalau dicampurkan ke dalam dunia politik.
Agama kebiasaannya mengajar seseorang tu berpatuh kepada ajaranNYA
Politik pula memberi seseorang tu kekayaan materialistik dunia.
Agama memberi ketenangan dan kesyukuran dalam menghadapi kehidupan harian
Politik pun mengundang ketamakan yang tiada batasan.
Bila manusia kehabisan modal dalam isu manusia kini melibatkanNYA pula.
Agama kebiasaannya mengajar seseorang tu berpatuh kepada ajaranNYA
Politik pula memberi seseorang tu kekayaan materialistik dunia.
Agama memberi ketenangan dan kesyukuran dalam menghadapi kehidupan harian
Politik pun mengundang ketamakan yang tiada batasan.
Bila manusia kehabisan modal dalam isu manusia kini melibatkanNYA pula.
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written by RumahPanjai, December 25, 2007 23:48:00
written by RumahPanjai, December 25, 2007 23:48:00
Maybe Rohani Hitam would like to enlighten us on, to quote her "Allah is a Muslim invention and is used to denote the unity of God". A muslim invention? Who are you trying to kid. General statements like this is misleading and grossly exaggerated. She needs to do her homework before she starts putting her fingers on the keyboard.
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 25, 2007 23:26:18
written by Rohani Hitam, December 25, 2007 23:26:18
mimag2005 wrote:
..... " People of the Book ".... ( ALLAH is referring to which community ? )
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ACCORDING TO THE MUSLIMS, ALLAH IS REFERRING TO THE THE JEWS, THE CHRISTIANS AND THE MUSLIMS. MY OPINION IS NOT INCLUDED HERE.
..... " WE (*) have sent Prophets and Warners to EACH and EVERY NATION so that NONE can stand before ME
on the DAY of JUDGEMENT and say he has not heard of ME " .... (ALLAH is referring to which
community ?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ACCORDING TO MUSLIMS, ALLAH IS REFERRING TO ALL HUMAN BEINGS. I RESERVE MY OPINION HERE.
(*) WE... As I understand in the Semitic language in this instance is for Plural of Respect and not
Plural of Numbers. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ACCORDING TO THE MUSLIMS, THAT IS HOW ALLAH ADDRESS HIMSELF.
..... " People of the Book ".... ( ALLAH is referring to which community ? )
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ACCORDING TO THE MUSLIMS, ALLAH IS REFERRING TO THE THE JEWS, THE CHRISTIANS AND THE MUSLIMS. MY OPINION IS NOT INCLUDED HERE.
..... " WE (*) have sent Prophets and Warners to EACH and EVERY NATION so that NONE can stand before ME
on the DAY of JUDGEMENT and say he has not heard of ME " .... (ALLAH is referring to which
community ?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ACCORDING TO MUSLIMS, ALLAH IS REFERRING TO ALL HUMAN BEINGS. I RESERVE MY OPINION HERE.
(*) WE... As I understand in the Semitic language in this instance is for Plural of Respect and not
Plural of Numbers. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ACCORDING TO THE MUSLIMS, THAT IS HOW ALLAH ADDRESS HIMSELF.
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written by mimag2005, December 25, 2007 21:47:21
written by mimag2005, December 25, 2007 21:47:21
Dear Rohani,
Would you be so kind to expound on the following found in the Muslim Koran :
..... " People of the Book ".... ( ALLAH is referring to which community ? )
..... " WE (*) have sent Prophets and Warners to EACH and EVERY NATION so that NONE can stand before ME
on the DAY of JUDGEMENT and say he has not heard of ME " .... (ALLAH is referring to which
community ?)
(*) WE... As I understand in the Semitic language in this instance is for Plural of Respect and not
Plural of Numbers. Please correct me if I'm wrong
Thank you.
Would you be so kind to expound on the following found in the Muslim Koran :
..... " People of the Book ".... ( ALLAH is referring to which community ? )
..... " WE (*) have sent Prophets and Warners to EACH and EVERY NATION so that NONE can stand before ME
on the DAY of JUDGEMENT and say he has not heard of ME " .... (ALLAH is referring to which
community ?)
(*) WE... As I understand in the Semitic language in this instance is for Plural of Respect and not
Plural of Numbers. Please correct me if I'm wrong
Thank you.
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 25, 2007 17:25:38
written by Rohani Hitam, December 25, 2007 17:25:38
Politics aside, the word Allah adopted in the Al-Quran has Jewish origin. Ela or Elohim was used in early Jewish scrptures to denote supreme being. Early Christians did not use Ela or Elohim to describe God. But Muslims continue to use the word Allah to describe God till today.
Indonesian Christians used the word Tuhan, being God in Bahasa Indonesia, since the early days of independence but are using Allah now.
The arguement that the word Allah was used by Malaysian Christians in the 19th century needs varification as this is a new claim and very doubtful. Probably there was but must have been very descreed as Muslims would have registered their strong objection against using the sacred word.
Hindus and Buddhists do not use Allah to describe God basically because they see no benefit in it as their Gods do not qualify the unity term of God. Despite the free option to use the word Allah if they choose to, they have somewhat refrained from using it as their aspiration to attract conversion to their religion is not deep compared to Christians.
Christians see benefit in using the term Allah as it may attract Muslims or at least to create an intersts among the Muslims. Christians have long trying hard to attract conversion as the message to spread the religion among the Gentiles is a duty to all Christians.
Christians should more appropriately maintain the term "Jesus" and thy "Father" as Allah is a Muslim invention and is used to denote the unity of God. Jesus does not qualify to be called Allah as He is part of the Trinity comprising of 3 where the Holy Spirit and the Father are the other elements of Christian God. Using the word Allah by Christians or other religion is balasphamous to Islam as the Muslim God is a Unitarian God while the Christians God is a Trinitarian God although both share the same Abrahamovic origin in their respective doctrines.
report abusevote downvote upVotes: -1
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written by Rohani Hitam, December 26, 2007 | 01:02:04
Muslims, Christians, Jews and others obviously are not praying to the same God. Each has their own interpretation and definitely differs in every aspect including the manner they offer their prayers.
Judaism is specifically Jewish and the God they pray to is by ethnicity is Jewish God. Their prophets are Jewish and Judaism is not a free religion where anybody can embrace. The Jews consider Jesus as an imposter and not God and Islam to the Jews is a creation by Mohamed. The early Christians were divided between the Unitarian Christians and the Trinitarian Christian where the later became dominant after the meeting of the Councils of Necea in the 4th century. Chritians pray to Jesus as God and this is against the Islamic and Jewish teaching of God as both consider him a human being.
So who says that the three religion pray to the same God? Those who profess to this idea must either be out of their mind or simply ignorant of the different doctrines and teachings.
report abusevote downvote upVotes: 0
Indonesian Christians used the word Tuhan, being God in Bahasa Indonesia, since the early days of independence but are using Allah now.
The arguement that the word Allah was used by Malaysian Christians in the 19th century needs varification as this is a new claim and very doubtful. Probably there was but must have been very descreed as Muslims would have registered their strong objection against using the sacred word.
Hindus and Buddhists do not use Allah to describe God basically because they see no benefit in it as their Gods do not qualify the unity term of God. Despite the free option to use the word Allah if they choose to, they have somewhat refrained from using it as their aspiration to attract conversion to their religion is not deep compared to Christians.
Christians see benefit in using the term Allah as it may attract Muslims or at least to create an intersts among the Muslims. Christians have long trying hard to attract conversion as the message to spread the religion among the Gentiles is a duty to all Christians.
Christians should more appropriately maintain the term "Jesus" and thy "Father" as Allah is a Muslim invention and is used to denote the unity of God. Jesus does not qualify to be called Allah as He is part of the Trinity comprising of 3 where the Holy Spirit and the Father are the other elements of Christian God. Using the word Allah by Christians or other religion is balasphamous to Islam as the Muslim God is a Unitarian God while the Christians God is a Trinitarian God although both share the same Abrahamovic origin in their respective doctrines.
report abusevote downvote upVotes: -1
...
written by Rohani Hitam, December 26, 2007 | 01:02:04
Muslims, Christians, Jews and others obviously are not praying to the same God. Each has their own interpretation and definitely differs in every aspect including the manner they offer their prayers.
Judaism is specifically Jewish and the God they pray to is by ethnicity is Jewish God. Their prophets are Jewish and Judaism is not a free religion where anybody can embrace. The Jews consider Jesus as an imposter and not God and Islam to the Jews is a creation by Mohamed. The early Christians were divided between the Unitarian Christians and the Trinitarian Christian where the later became dominant after the meeting of the Councils of Necea in the 4th century. Chritians pray to Jesus as God and this is against the Islamic and Jewish teaching of God as both consider him a human being.
So who says that the three religion pray to the same God? Those who profess to this idea must either be out of their mind or simply ignorant of the different doctrines and teachings.
report abusevote downvote upVotes: 0
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written by sstan, December 25, 2007 08:34:28
written by sstan, December 25, 2007 08:34:28
Do not fall into the trap of BN,they have try to unite all Malays by racial issues but not so successful and now desperately try to unite Mlays by playing up religous issues.
Do make issues out of this as it will only benefit the BN.
Do make issues out of this as it will only benefit the BN.
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written by indianputra, December 25, 2007 06:02:25
written by indianputra, December 25, 2007 06:02:25
PUTRAJAYA: Malaysians should move forward and put the country’s interest before any “narrowly defined demandsâ€Â, said Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi.
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Damn you PM, why DON"T YOU SEE the mistakes that you are making.. You seem to be accusing everyone for your failed leadership. 'Narrowly Defined Demands'... What the hell is that?? Rakyat demand their right and you think it is 'narrow minded'..
Good bye Pak Lah.. Good bye to your seat and you will NEVER be the PM of this country.. Just watch the karma...
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Damn you PM, why DON"T YOU SEE the mistakes that you are making.. You seem to be accusing everyone for your failed leadership. 'Narrowly Defined Demands'... What the hell is that?? Rakyat demand their right and you think it is 'narrow minded'..
Good bye Pak Lah.. Good bye to your seat and you will NEVER be the PM of this country.. Just watch the karma...
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written by teo siew chin, December 25, 2007 05:34:35
written by teo siew chin, December 25, 2007 05:34:35
Jedyoong's love for his/her God is 'extreme'. But I am of the opinion that he is by no means an extremist. How the 'extreme' is demonstrated is by his/her actions and words. Love, benevolence, tolerance - these can only be exhibited by the way we act, by the words we use.
"A rebel, heretic, lout - he drew a circle and shut us out.
But love and I have the wit to win -
We drew a circle and embraced him in."
May all have a peaceful, loving 2008 !
"A rebel, heretic, lout - he drew a circle and shut us out.
But love and I have the wit to win -
We drew a circle and embraced him in."
May all have a peaceful, loving 2008 !
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written by omarkhayyam, December 25, 2007 03:26:00
written by omarkhayyam, December 25, 2007 03:26:00
so i guess now i got to use "Oh my Allah" instead of "Oh my God" to express myself ... or else i may end up hell
cheers
cheers
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written by jedyoong, December 25, 2007 02:36:01
written by jedyoong, December 25, 2007 02:36:01
Dear RPK,
Name-calling is great.
Talibans and I probably share the same strong emotions towards religion.
Except Talibans dun worship God, and are not Christians.
We believe in LOVE, not very evident in this discussion, but dun condone VIOLENCE.
A TRUE Christian that is. I am not saying I am a TRUE/PERFECT Christian.
That is the Christian DOCTRINE.
We dun believe in JIHAD, we believe in spreading the GOOD NEWS of God, salvation via Jesus Christ.
I wish you would stop trying to force your worldview on me, and labelling me a Taliban.
We reach out via love and compassion. Not via hate and vengeance.
We believe vengeance is the Lord's. And just as God forgave us, we should forgive others.
Pls dun equate me to a Taliban.
Name-calling is great.
Talibans and I probably share the same strong emotions towards religion.
Except Talibans dun worship God, and are not Christians.
We believe in LOVE, not very evident in this discussion, but dun condone VIOLENCE.
A TRUE Christian that is. I am not saying I am a TRUE/PERFECT Christian.
That is the Christian DOCTRINE.
We dun believe in JIHAD, we believe in spreading the GOOD NEWS of God, salvation via Jesus Christ.
I wish you would stop trying to force your worldview on me, and labelling me a Taliban.
We reach out via love and compassion. Not via hate and vengeance.
We believe vengeance is the Lord's. And just as God forgave us, we should forgive others.
Pls dun equate me to a Taliban.
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written by Raja Petra, December 25, 2007 02:30:03
written by Raja Petra, December 25, 2007 02:30:03
Dear jedyoong, spoken like a true Taliban. You will be very happy to know that you and they share the same worldview.
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written by jedyoong, December 25, 2007 02:07:37
written by jedyoong, December 25, 2007 02:07:37
Hi WongNoBall,
Just a copy-cat? Maybe better too? Ha ha. I actually hate discussing religion unless people ask me to state my view. but i simply can't agree to the proposal that "muslims, christians n jews worship the same God".
Merry Christmas ALL.
Just leave us and our religion alone man! And we will leave you alone LAH?
Just a copy-cat? Maybe better too? Ha ha. I actually hate discussing religion unless people ask me to state my view. but i simply can't agree to the proposal that "muslims, christians n jews worship the same God".
Merry Christmas ALL.
Just leave us and our religion alone man! And we will leave you alone LAH?
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written by wongnoball, December 25, 2007 02:03:15
written by wongnoball, December 25, 2007 02:03:15
Mahatma Gandhi said there are seven sins in the world:
Wealth without work,
Pleasure without conscience,
Knowledge without character,
Commerce without morality,
Science without humanity,
Worship without sacrifice, and
Politics without principle.
So, why don't we focus all these sins, instead of .....................
Dear Jedyoong, I am not a writer, just merely a copy-cat lah ........
Wealth without work,
Pleasure without conscience,
Knowledge without character,
Commerce without morality,
Science without humanity,
Worship without sacrifice, and
Politics without principle.
So, why don't we focus all these sins, instead of .....................
Dear Jedyoong, I am not a writer, just merely a copy-cat lah ........
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written by jedyoong, December 25, 2007 01:56:20
written by jedyoong, December 25, 2007 01:56:20
Dear Raja Petra,
Just cos I don't agree with you, pls dun call me a crackpot.
Do a poll among Christians and see how many agree that the Muslim and Christian God is the same. And vice versa among Muslims.
It' blashemous to say so in Christianity.
Also, Christians dun believe Muslims are worshiping God, THERE IS ONLY ONE.
Muslims worship a black box in Mecca, that's like worshiping a stone, like a PAGAN.
OK, Got IT? Muslims are not worshiping God.
OK.
We believe Muslims are LOST! And are worshiping a FALSE GOD.
If you want it to be clear cut. And vice-versa Muslims think the same about Christians and other non=Muslims OK!
So we can agree to believe what we want to believe but dun call me a weirdo or crackpot cos I state the Christian DOCTRINE.
I dun go around calling Muslims crackpots or idiots or fanatics. OK. Pls show some respect to other people's beliefs and religion.
I am not commenting on YOURS. Just stating my stand.
Jesus, HOW OLD ARE YOU RPK?
Just cos I don't agree with you, pls dun call me a crackpot.
Do a poll among Christians and see how many agree that the Muslim and Christian God is the same. And vice versa among Muslims.
It' blashemous to say so in Christianity.
Also, Christians dun believe Muslims are worshiping God, THERE IS ONLY ONE.
Muslims worship a black box in Mecca, that's like worshiping a stone, like a PAGAN.
OK, Got IT? Muslims are not worshiping God.
OK.
We believe Muslims are LOST! And are worshiping a FALSE GOD.
If you want it to be clear cut. And vice-versa Muslims think the same about Christians and other non=Muslims OK!
So we can agree to believe what we want to believe but dun call me a weirdo or crackpot cos I state the Christian DOCTRINE.
I dun go around calling Muslims crackpots or idiots or fanatics. OK. Pls show some respect to other people's beliefs and religion.
I am not commenting on YOURS. Just stating my stand.
Jesus, HOW OLD ARE YOU RPK?
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written by Raja Petra, December 25, 2007 00:13:34
written by Raja Petra, December 25, 2007 00:13:34
Dear mimag2005, give it a rest, jedyoong believes that there is more than one God and he is entitled to his belief. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have crackpots and weirdos so leave it be.
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written by johanssm, December 24, 2007 22:12:47
written by johanssm, December 24, 2007 22:12:47
While others condemns,but i congratulates umno.
Without the current goons in government it will be very hard to brings them down.
Voters should realizes by now that giving 90 % mandate to bn is a folly.
A healthy nation must have equal opposition power.
Only by having the correct "checks and balances" system then our nation can be strong and progressive.
To readers here that are pro bn, please do considers giving your votes to the Oppositions.Only by doing so, Malaysians can have a better or quality governing system.Its still not too late to save this nation although the damages are done.
Without the current goons in government it will be very hard to brings them down.
Voters should realizes by now that giving 90 % mandate to bn is a folly.
A healthy nation must have equal opposition power.
Only by having the correct "checks and balances" system then our nation can be strong and progressive.
To readers here that are pro bn, please do considers giving your votes to the Oppositions.Only by doing so, Malaysians can have a better or quality governing system.Its still not too late to save this nation although the damages are done.
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written by panca, December 24, 2007 19:39:47
written by panca, December 24, 2007 19:39:47
The majority of people are malay and all malay are muslims. All muslim believe in the same abrahamic god as of the jews and christians. The majority malay also pray to the same god as all the people in umno prays to, aren't they all praying to the same and one god, the same one god that is true?
As we look at the whole picture...when there is wrong-doing then there is wrong. But when there are right things to be done and has to be done or wrongs that have to be righted then these are still wrong. As long they are from the people to tell the gomen's wrong, it will be wronged even it is the truth. The ruling gomen can do no wrong and can never be told that they are wrong because they can only be right, just like god, they are perfect. I think they are god believers or you may say they are god themselves. They decide your wrong and they still lead(mislead) many others to believe their decisions are right. These many people that believe the ruling gomen, will never find out the 'real' truth. The sad and pathetic thing is there are even something called truth that has to be re-classified as truth and 'real' truth and the majority can live by day by day, month by month, year by year and decade by decade without knowing between the two i.e. truth and 'real' truth. Of course we can only hear, see and read the so-called truth from the mainstream media, or perhaps even at some special organised sermons to spread such truth. So what is truth and real truth is like what is kosher and real kosher to believers of the same god. Will the majority believers ever find out, choose not to find out or just follow the belief what umno wants these believers to keep believing?
Who is the god here?
As we look at the whole picture...when there is wrong-doing then there is wrong. But when there are right things to be done and has to be done or wrongs that have to be righted then these are still wrong. As long they are from the people to tell the gomen's wrong, it will be wronged even it is the truth. The ruling gomen can do no wrong and can never be told that they are wrong because they can only be right, just like god, they are perfect. I think they are god believers or you may say they are god themselves. They decide your wrong and they still lead(mislead) many others to believe their decisions are right. These many people that believe the ruling gomen, will never find out the 'real' truth. The sad and pathetic thing is there are even something called truth that has to be re-classified as truth and 'real' truth and the majority can live by day by day, month by month, year by year and decade by decade without knowing between the two i.e. truth and 'real' truth. Of course we can only hear, see and read the so-called truth from the mainstream media, or perhaps even at some special organised sermons to spread such truth. So what is truth and real truth is like what is kosher and real kosher to believers of the same god. Will the majority believers ever find out, choose not to find out or just follow the belief what umno wants these believers to keep believing?
Who is the god here?
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written by Sagaladoola, December 24, 2007 19:34:33
written by Sagaladoola, December 24, 2007 19:34:33
HIGHLIGHT:
So, gatherings and rallies are haram. Now, the use of the word 'Allah' by non-Muslims is also haram. Gatherings and rallies are of course not haram according to Prophet Muhammad's Islam. It is only haram according to Hadhari's Islam. And the use of the word 'Allah' is not haram according to the Prophet's Islam. It is only haram according to Hadhari's Islam.
COMMENT:
I would like to proclaim my dislike on this HADHARI thing and its IMAM BESAR . Nothing seems right. To Raja Petra and all, I would like to suggest that all of us not use the name "Islam" after the "Hadhari" word.
Regards,
http://sagaladoola.b******t.com
So, gatherings and rallies are haram. Now, the use of the word 'Allah' by non-Muslims is also haram. Gatherings and rallies are of course not haram according to Prophet Muhammad's Islam. It is only haram according to Hadhari's Islam. And the use of the word 'Allah' is not haram according to the Prophet's Islam. It is only haram according to Hadhari's Islam.
COMMENT:
I would like to proclaim my dislike on this HADHARI thing and its IMAM BESAR . Nothing seems right. To Raja Petra and all, I would like to suggest that all of us not use the name "Islam" after the "Hadhari" word.
Regards,
http://sagaladoola.b******t.com
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written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 18:19:04
written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 18:19:04
Hi Mirmag,
Erm, I dunno what you are trying to prove. I already said that I will believe what I want to believe and I am not gonna waste my time explaining and engaging in your rhethoric etc.
I merely want to state my beliefs. I am not condemning Islam.
But I want to make it clear that Christianity is not Islam and we don't worship the same God.
Cheers.
PS. Ooooooooooooooooooo...u r so clever....Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Erm, I dunno what you are trying to prove. I already said that I will believe what I want to believe and I am not gonna waste my time explaining and engaging in your rhethoric etc.
I merely want to state my beliefs. I am not condemning Islam.
But I want to make it clear that Christianity is not Islam and we don't worship the same God.
Cheers.
PS. Ooooooooooooooooooo...u r so clever....Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 18:15:12
written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 18:15:12
Hey Jedi,
Something to reflect b4 u hit the sack..
Prophet Moses 1st of 10 commandments... Do not put strange gods before ME !
Book of Isaiah .......... Worship ME and ME ONLY for I AM A JEALOUS GOD !
Jesus greatest commandment of ALL !.... Hear O'Israel the lord your God is ONE !
Muslim Koran ....... Say HE is ALLAH, HE is ONE !
DO YOU SEE ANY OF THE ABOVE ANOINTED FIGURES from 3 " so called different faiths" DECLARING MORE THAN ONE GOD ???
Bon Nuit
Something to reflect b4 u hit the sack..
Prophet Moses 1st of 10 commandments... Do not put strange gods before ME !
Book of Isaiah .......... Worship ME and ME ONLY for I AM A JEALOUS GOD !
Jesus greatest commandment of ALL !.... Hear O'Israel the lord your God is ONE !
Muslim Koran ....... Say HE is ALLAH, HE is ONE !
DO YOU SEE ANY OF THE ABOVE ANOINTED FIGURES from 3 " so called different faiths" DECLARING MORE THAN ONE GOD ???
Bon Nuit
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written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 17:42:59
written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 17:42:59
Dear All,
Just a clarification.
I have no problems with use of word Allah Tuhan inter-changeably.
But I disagree with RPK's view that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.
Cheers.
Merry Christmas.
WongNoBalls, Your name sound familiar. Are you a political writer too? Anyway, those are words of wisdom which I shall meditate on. TKs.
Just a clarification.
I have no problems with use of word Allah Tuhan inter-changeably.
But I disagree with RPK's view that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.
Cheers.
Merry Christmas.
WongNoBalls, Your name sound familiar. Are you a political writer too? Anyway, those are words of wisdom which I shall meditate on. TKs.
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written by wongnoball, December 24, 2007 16:54:51
written by wongnoball, December 24, 2007 16:54:51
A few quotes by Confucious:
Show respect to the spirits and deities, then keep away from them.
Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.
While you are not able to serve men, how can you serve spirits(of the dead)?
While you do not know life, how can you know about death?
A superior man does not set his mind either for anything, or against anything. What is right he will follow.
Fine words and insinuating appearance are seldom associated with true virtue.
Show respect to the spirits and deities, then keep away from them.
Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.
While you are not able to serve men, how can you serve spirits(of the dead)?
While you do not know life, how can you know about death?
A superior man does not set his mind either for anything, or against anything. What is right he will follow.
Fine words and insinuating appearance are seldom associated with true virtue.
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written by anon, December 24, 2007 16:48:47
written by anon, December 24, 2007 16:48:47
jedyoong,
I really get disgusted when anyone from any religion says theirs is the ONLY God. When you say that, you are effectively saying that the people who pray to other Gods/deities are not praying to God.
My wife is a Christian and I am not but I have no qualms about going to church to pray. So far, I have not heard the pastor saying that the Christian God is the ONLY God. If he does so, believe me, I will stand up and question him for all to see and hear.
I have also gone to a Buddhist temple to pray. So what? Anything wrong with that? And believe me, I have been to a mosque in Malacca ( oldest mosque ) and prayed there too.
Do you really believe there are so many different Gods in heaven? Each fighting to say HE is the ONLY God?
There is only one God and HE emanates in many forms.
Merry Christmas to all.
I really get disgusted when anyone from any religion says theirs is the ONLY God. When you say that, you are effectively saying that the people who pray to other Gods/deities are not praying to God.
My wife is a Christian and I am not but I have no qualms about going to church to pray. So far, I have not heard the pastor saying that the Christian God is the ONLY God. If he does so, believe me, I will stand up and question him for all to see and hear.
I have also gone to a Buddhist temple to pray. So what? Anything wrong with that? And believe me, I have been to a mosque in Malacca ( oldest mosque ) and prayed there too.
Do you really believe there are so many different Gods in heaven? Each fighting to say HE is the ONLY God?
There is only one God and HE emanates in many forms.
Merry Christmas to all.
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written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 16:48:01
written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 16:48:01
Chaptokam,
I repeat:
You may believe what you want to believe and I will believe what I want to believe.
Cheers.
I repeat:
You may believe what you want to believe and I will believe what I want to believe.
Cheers.
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written by Chaptokam, December 24, 2007 16:45:47
written by Chaptokam, December 24, 2007 16:45:47
jedyoong said.....cos there is only ONE God, the Christian God.
We don't force people to convert, we let people leave ok. If you want to believe, you believe, if not then go. But it's blasphemy from a Christian point of view to say the Christian God is the Same as ANY other God. I dont agree with all the things you have said. Born again Christians or the Methodists are the worst types of Christains .They are guilty of blasphemy to other religions . They have said things like if you dont accept Christ as your saviour you go to hell , they have said that all idiol worshippers are praying to the devil , they have said all animals have no souls etc etc etc I could go on and on ,isn't this blasphemy jed yoong ? If this is not as far as I am concerned jed yoong you can go and fly kite . To all non Christians who have experience invasion of their homes by these so called pastors and removing things and idiols from their homes pls go and make police reports of illegal removal of personal belongings by unscruplous preachers . Coming back to your so called Christian God , A god that says you go to heaven as long as you accept him when you are on your death bed and prior to that you ave been killing people , robbing people , causing people all sorts of suffering , sleeping with your friends wives etc and you still go to heaven ? Is this your type of GOD ? Converting people by all sorts of means without disregard to that persons family whether they accept the conversion or not ? You know what happens ??? You end up with broken family ties where one of them is a convert , and eventually they go different ways . This itself is the Greatest Sin of all breaking up people,s homes and is NO different from sleeping with somebody's wife and get caught . As for Jesus he was never a god or son of god . He died as a human being at a age of 90 at the place where he went to study religion from . When he was thirteen until thirty three not mentioned at all in the bible he went to India and Tibet to study religion from the Bhramins and from the Buddhist Monks in
We don't force people to convert, we let people leave ok. If you want to believe, you believe, if not then go. But it's blasphemy from a Christian point of view to say the Christian God is the Same as ANY other God. I dont agree with all the things you have said. Born again Christians or the Methodists are the worst types of Christains .They are guilty of blasphemy to other religions . They have said things like if you dont accept Christ as your saviour you go to hell , they have said that all idiol worshippers are praying to the devil , they have said all animals have no souls etc etc etc I could go on and on ,isn't this blasphemy jed yoong ? If this is not as far as I am concerned jed yoong you can go and fly kite . To all non Christians who have experience invasion of their homes by these so called pastors and removing things and idiols from their homes pls go and make police reports of illegal removal of personal belongings by unscruplous preachers . Coming back to your so called Christian God , A god that says you go to heaven as long as you accept him when you are on your death bed and prior to that you ave been killing people , robbing people , causing people all sorts of suffering , sleeping with your friends wives etc and you still go to heaven ? Is this your type of GOD ? Converting people by all sorts of means without disregard to that persons family whether they accept the conversion or not ? You know what happens ??? You end up with broken family ties where one of them is a convert , and eventually they go different ways . This itself is the Greatest Sin of all breaking up people,s homes and is NO different from sleeping with somebody's wife and get caught . As for Jesus he was never a god or son of god . He died as a human being at a age of 90 at the place where he went to study religion from . When he was thirteen until thirty three not mentioned at all in the bible he went to India and Tibet to study religion from the Bhramins and from the Buddhist Monks in
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written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 16:25:37
written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 16:25:37
jedyoong. ok ma man . as my loveable one-toothed grand aunt used to say.
.. if the cap suits you, put it on...
.. if the cap suits you, put it on...
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written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 16:12:53
written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 16:12:53
mirmag, ok cheers. let's agree to disagree. i am not answering your question, pls dun try to challenge my CORE CHRISTIAN beliefs. i find that repulsive. God bless you Merry Christmas.
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written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 16:08:52
written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 16:08:52
Hey Mate !
My above question require only ONE WORD RESPONSE I.E. YES or NO !
Care to join me for a Hendrix or J Joplin ?
My above question require only ONE WORD RESPONSE I.E. YES or NO !
Care to join me for a Hendrix or J Joplin ?
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written by Anak Desa, December 24, 2007 16:04:12
written by Anak Desa, December 24, 2007 16:04:12
RPK had said the right word..Malays are taught about haram and halal like bangsa Malaysia belongs to the Malay Malaysians only. It is quite difficult to change the mindset as they are brainstormed with the words and would be diificult for them to understand even among successful people. Ways should explored to eradicate this mis-conception and show the right path....
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written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 15:54:41
written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 15:54:41
mirmag, stop acting all holier-than-thou. gimme a friggin break man. u dun want to believe what i believe than stick to your own believes. dun pass judgement on people's beliefs. May God show you the error of your ways, heretic.
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written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 15:48:09
written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 15:48:09
Tsk...tsk
Seeing they see not.... Hearing they hear not.... Neither do they understand.
God bless you Mate !
Seeing they see not.... Hearing they hear not.... Neither do they understand.
God bless you Mate !
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written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 15:42:46
written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 15:42:46
more accurately we don't believe that Muslims are worshiping God, since there is only one. maybe this is clearer. they worship a black box in Mecca? that's very different from God.
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written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 15:40:04
written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 15:40:04
mirmag, that's YOUR belief OK. it's NOT the same as mine. I state it again the MUSLIM GOD is DIFFERENT from the CHRISTIAN GOD. OK.
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written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 15:37:01
written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 15:37:01
My Enlightened jedyoong,
Since the dawn of the Human race, all Prophets and Warners (with/without Scriptures) were appointed or anointed by The Almighty God. The Almighty God commanded His Appointed Representative to teach and guide their respective followers the correct way according to their mental faculties in that time.
For your comfort zone, I'm confining this discussion within the scope of the Old & New testament. All these Israelite Prophets and Warners apart from teaching their followers how to live and behave in this material world also have a common denominator to teach/guide their followers i.e. submit and follow God's will.
Do you believe that Jesus, Moses, Abraham and the other Israelite Prophets taught and passed on these common denominator to their respective followers ?
Pls do some serious soul searching before you respond.
Cheers !
Since the dawn of the Human race, all Prophets and Warners (with/without Scriptures) were appointed or anointed by The Almighty God. The Almighty God commanded His Appointed Representative to teach and guide their respective followers the correct way according to their mental faculties in that time.
For your comfort zone, I'm confining this discussion within the scope of the Old & New testament. All these Israelite Prophets and Warners apart from teaching their followers how to live and behave in this material world also have a common denominator to teach/guide their followers i.e. submit and follow God's will.
Do you believe that Jesus, Moses, Abraham and the other Israelite Prophets taught and passed on these common denominator to their respective followers ?
Pls do some serious soul searching before you respond.
Cheers !
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written by mohrin, December 24, 2007 15:27:43
written by mohrin, December 24, 2007 15:27:43
Aha! All that is HARAM makes you MARAH!
Do you copy?
Do you copy?
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written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 14:53:59
written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 14:53:59
CORRECTION: I am NOT arguing about the naming of Christianity, Christian etc...
To all Christians who say that they are worshiping the same God as Muslims, I suggest you convert to Islam. And to Muslims who believe they worship the same God as Christians, you can call yourself Christians now and start eating pork. Since it's the SAME GOD why would he be schizophrenic? Although Jews dun eat pork too.
To all Christians who say that they are worshiping the same God as Muslims, I suggest you convert to Islam. And to Muslims who believe they worship the same God as Christians, you can call yourself Christians now and start eating pork. Since it's the SAME GOD why would he be schizophrenic? Although Jews dun eat pork too.
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written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 14:50:17
written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 14:50:17
Dear Mimag...
I am arguing about the naming of Christianity, Christian etc...
Basically it came after.
OK....if you are a Christian, and you believe that the Muslim God and the Christian God is the same, you should be ashamed of yourself. Why not become a Muslim anyway since it's the SAME god?
I am arguing about the naming of Christianity, Christian etc...
Basically it came after.
OK....if you are a Christian, and you believe that the Muslim God and the Christian God is the same, you should be ashamed of yourself. Why not become a Muslim anyway since it's the SAME god?
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written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 14:44:19
written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 14:44:19
Dear Brother Jedyoong,
HalleluYah ! Only Christians worshiped the ONE TRUE GOD. ( ITS NOT TRUE YOU KNOW ! )
Now does'nt it tickle your mind abit ... how come JESUS THE SAVIOUR OF SOULS AND LEADER OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH FORGOT TO NAME HIS RELIGION CHRISTIANITY BUT,
INSTEAD LEFT IT TO HIS ENEMIES AT ANTIOCH TO GIVE IT A NAME ???
May the Almighty shed more light into your Inner Temple.
Amen !
HalleluYah ! Only Christians worshiped the ONE TRUE GOD. ( ITS NOT TRUE YOU KNOW ! )
Now does'nt it tickle your mind abit ... how come JESUS THE SAVIOUR OF SOULS AND LEADER OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH FORGOT TO NAME HIS RELIGION CHRISTIANITY BUT,
INSTEAD LEFT IT TO HIS ENEMIES AT ANTIOCH TO GIVE IT A NAME ???
May the Almighty shed more light into your Inner Temple.
Amen !
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written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 14:36:15
written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 14:36:15
Do Muslims believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as the three parts of their ONE GOD?
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written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 14:30:11
written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 14:30:11
RPK,
Jesus was a Jew and died a Jew.
Those who followed his teachings and accepted that his the SAVIOUR are called Christians, a fairly new term.
I conceded that the Jewish God and the Christian God is the same but not the Muslim God.
They teach us to sing and turn the other cheek. And pray for our enemies in Sunday school.
Do you realise that it is really offensive to MOST Christians to say that the Muslim and Christian God is the same?
Thanks. Pls RPK, I dun subscribe to your views on this particular issue. Nor am I forcing you to accept my beliefs.
Jesus was a Jew and died a Jew.
Those who followed his teachings and accepted that his the SAVIOUR are called Christians, a fairly new term.
I conceded that the Jewish God and the Christian God is the same but not the Muslim God.
They teach us to sing and turn the other cheek. And pray for our enemies in Sunday school.
Do you realise that it is really offensive to MOST Christians to say that the Muslim and Christian God is the same?
Thanks. Pls RPK, I dun subscribe to your views on this particular issue. Nor am I forcing you to accept my beliefs.
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written by Raja Petra, December 24, 2007 14:24:24
written by Raja Petra, December 24, 2007 14:24:24
Dear jedyoong, if you really want to get technical then let us get technical. Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian, and he died a Jew. And what the heck do you mean by 'don't force your "all gods are the same" down my throat'? Who the hell is saying that there are many Gods? How can we say ALL Gods are the same when there is only one? Sheesh. What the hell do they teach you in Sunday school?
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written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 14:17:08
written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 14:17:08
Yes mimag, you got it! There is no other God outside Christianity. That's what it means. You are right at that time the term Christian God doesn't exist. Nor the term Christianity. But the belief remains that only Christians worshiped the ONE TRUE GOD. Anything else is not 'god'. If you say the Muslim God is the same as the Christian God, why not just be a Muslim? Or Buddhist? Choose something that choose your personal preferences, tastes n lifestyle since they are ALL THE SAME. Ok, so dun try to convince me otherwise. I am simply stating my beliefs.
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written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 14:09:36
written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 14:09:36
Hey Jedyoong !
Just remembered... when the scribes ask Jesus which is the greatest commandment. He answered... Hear O'Israel the lord your God is ONE ! ( notice he did not mention Christian God. Infact Jesus suppose to be THE SAVIOUR of souls has not heard of a Christian God nor of a religion called Christianity.... but we keep this for another time/platform...
Merry Xmas
Just remembered... when the scribes ask Jesus which is the greatest commandment. He answered... Hear O'Israel the lord your God is ONE ! ( notice he did not mention Christian God. Infact Jesus suppose to be THE SAVIOUR of souls has not heard of a Christian God nor of a religion called Christianity.... but we keep this for another time/platform...
Merry Xmas
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written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 13:54:44
written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 13:54:44
Jesus told to his lost sheep, if i remeber correctly ... "seek and you will find, knock and it shall open".
For sincere seekers of truth take heed... the saviour of your souls has spoken !!!
Amen !!
For sincere seekers of truth take heed... the saviour of your souls has spoken !!!
Amen !!
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written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 13:36:51
written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 13:36:51
everyone is entitled to their worldviews.
i have mine, you have yours.
don't force your "all gods are the same" down my throat.
tks.
merry christmas.
i have mine, you have yours.
don't force your "all gods are the same" down my throat.
tks.
merry christmas.
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written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 13:34:59
written by mimag2005, December 24, 2007 13:34:59
Dear Jedyoong,
RPK is right - there is no such thing as Christian God or any gods except THE ONLY ONE GOD !!
According to the bible, when Jesus was on the cross he uttered these words....
" ELI ELI LAMASABAHTANI " ..... translate..... " MY GOD MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME "
Surely the first part was not uttered in the english language. Pls ask your semetic friends preferably Jewish, how do they pronounce " ELI ELI ".
The english language pronounce " PUT " different from NUT, HUT, CUT etc etc.
" The more we know....The more we become conscious how little we know "
May the Almighty shed some light into your Inner Temple.
Amen !!
RPK is right - there is no such thing as Christian God or any gods except THE ONLY ONE GOD !!
According to the bible, when Jesus was on the cross he uttered these words....
" ELI ELI LAMASABAHTANI " ..... translate..... " MY GOD MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME "
Surely the first part was not uttered in the english language. Pls ask your semetic friends preferably Jewish, how do they pronounce " ELI ELI ".
The english language pronounce " PUT " different from NUT, HUT, CUT etc etc.
" The more we know....The more we become conscious how little we know "
May the Almighty shed some light into your Inner Temple.
Amen !!
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written by budakindia, December 24, 2007 12:57:27
written by budakindia, December 24, 2007 12:57:27
it's very showing how shallow our ministers understanding of Islam. It's very sad how they reflected that in Islam Hadhari. I believe all other Islamic nations will shake their heads knowing that Malaysia has very shallow understanding of Islam. Surely Malaysia's credibility in championing the Islam cause has been dented by one stupid minister named Johari Baharom! I guess it caused a lot for PM to rebuild the image back or he wouldn't care less about it anymore as he's on top of the world now! But seriously it's funny to see Malaysia fumbled again!
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written by indianputra, December 24, 2007 12:37:24
written by indianputra, December 24, 2007 12:37:24
It's just small brains - brains that just cannot comprehend what is right and what is wrong - pea brains that assume whatever they say is correct, brains that cannot distinguish human values, brains that had been brainwashed with terorist ideology.. these are the criteria for statements that non-muslims should not use the word "Allah'!! And guess what, these idiots are the MINISTERS of MALAYSIA!!!
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written by wildbil, December 24, 2007 11:43:33
written by wildbil, December 24, 2007 11:43:33
We can't win when come to one believe in their religion. Every is right for their own believe and everyone is wrong when they talk about others religion.
How can one "compare" if you only know one side of the story and fact?
All are idiot when they argued with one another on who religion is the truth and better than others.
In the beginning, PKR said, all religions teach us to be a good follower and good person that we may help one another without race, color and believe.
When all the God people in this world practise that, we all are God's chidlren.
Isn't that we have the same color of blood running under our skin?
Remember, God created us from HIS own image? AND we all are children of Adam and Eve. Period.
I am a Christian, am I blasphemy? Let God judge me on that.
How can one "compare" if you only know one side of the story and fact?
All are idiot when they argued with one another on who religion is the truth and better than others.
In the beginning, PKR said, all religions teach us to be a good follower and good person that we may help one another without race, color and believe.
When all the God people in this world practise that, we all are God's chidlren.
Isn't that we have the same color of blood running under our skin?
Remember, God created us from HIS own image? AND we all are children of Adam and Eve. Period.
I am a Christian, am I blasphemy? Let God judge me on that.
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written by miwaki, December 24, 2007 11:30:31
written by miwaki, December 24, 2007 11:30:31
Religion is a guide to its followers to ensure they do not detour from the teaching.However,humans are weak and the temptations and greed are too powerful to control.Only true followers of religion can exercise restrain.Greedy people especially our leaders regardless of whether they have or without religion,they will look at money and power as their only religion.
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written by wildbil, December 24, 2007 11:20:37
written by wildbil, December 24, 2007 11:20:37
This is the problem of some people though they are the expert in their field.
Infact, they are just half past six and try to "guest" on what they know and also try to impress others of what they know.
Infact, they are just half past six and try to "guest" on what they know and also try to impress others of what they know.
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written by Chaptokam, December 24, 2007 11:07:16
written by Chaptokam, December 24, 2007 11:07:16
jedyoong said.....cos there is only ONE God, the Christian God.
We don't force people to convert, we let people leave ok. If you want to believe, you believe, if not then go. But it's blasphemy from a Christian point of view to say the Christian God is the Same as ANY other God. I dont agree with all the things you have said. Born again Christians or the Methodists are the worst types of Christains .They are guilty of blasphemy to other religions . They have said things like if you dont accept Christ as your saviour you go to hell , they have said that all idiol worshippers are praying to the devil , they have said all animals have no souls etc etc etc I could go on and on ,isn't this blasphemy jed yoong ? If this is not as far as I am concerned jed yoong you can go and fly kite . To all non Christians who have experience invasion of their homes by these so called pastors and removing things and idiols from their homes pls go and make police reports of illegal removal of personal belongings by unscruplous preachers . Coming back to your so called Christian God , A god that says you go to heaven as long as you accept him when you are on your death bed and prior to that you ave been killing people , robbing people , causing people all sorts of suffering , sleeping with your friends wives etc and you still go to heaven ? Is this your type of GOD ? Converting people by all sorts of means without disregard to that persons family whether they accept the conversion or not ? You know what happens ??? You end up with broken family ties where one of them is a convert , and eventually they go different ways . This itself is the Greatest Sin of all breaking up people,s homes and is NO different from sleeping with somebody's wife and get caught . As for Jesus he was never a god or son of god . He died as a human being at a age of 90 at the place where he went to study religion from . When he was thirteen until thirty three not mentioned at all in the bible he went to India and Tibet to study religion from the Bhramins and from the Buddhist Monks in Tibet . While there he was referred to as St Essa . After the cruxifition he was resusicated as he did not die as he knew what to do from what he had learnt from the yogis in India . He did not travel West to France as these were under Roman control . He went East to where he had been before and settle in Srinagar where he died and is buried there . The Muslims in Srinagar thru DNA testing were found to posses the same DNA of the HEBREWS who went with JESUS ie the twelve tribes . The Old Testament were different in contents with TODAYs BIBLE written by only four Disciples of Jesus when there was more than Thirty . The DEAD SEA SCROLLS were more accurate . If you want to know who is GOD it starts with YOU . You determine your destiny . ....So don't talk CRAB .
We don't force people to convert, we let people leave ok. If you want to believe, you believe, if not then go. But it's blasphemy from a Christian point of view to say the Christian God is the Same as ANY other God. I dont agree with all the things you have said. Born again Christians or the Methodists are the worst types of Christains .They are guilty of blasphemy to other religions . They have said things like if you dont accept Christ as your saviour you go to hell , they have said that all idiol worshippers are praying to the devil , they have said all animals have no souls etc etc etc I could go on and on ,isn't this blasphemy jed yoong ? If this is not as far as I am concerned jed yoong you can go and fly kite . To all non Christians who have experience invasion of their homes by these so called pastors and removing things and idiols from their homes pls go and make police reports of illegal removal of personal belongings by unscruplous preachers . Coming back to your so called Christian God , A god that says you go to heaven as long as you accept him when you are on your death bed and prior to that you ave been killing people , robbing people , causing people all sorts of suffering , sleeping with your friends wives etc and you still go to heaven ? Is this your type of GOD ? Converting people by all sorts of means without disregard to that persons family whether they accept the conversion or not ? You know what happens ??? You end up with broken family ties where one of them is a convert , and eventually they go different ways . This itself is the Greatest Sin of all breaking up people,s homes and is NO different from sleeping with somebody's wife and get caught . As for Jesus he was never a god or son of god . He died as a human being at a age of 90 at the place where he went to study religion from . When he was thirteen until thirty three not mentioned at all in the bible he went to India and Tibet to study religion from the Bhramins and from the Buddhist Monks in Tibet . While there he was referred to as St Essa . After the cruxifition he was resusicated as he did not die as he knew what to do from what he had learnt from the yogis in India . He did not travel West to France as these were under Roman control . He went East to where he had been before and settle in Srinagar where he died and is buried there . The Muslims in Srinagar thru DNA testing were found to posses the same DNA of the HEBREWS who went with JESUS ie the twelve tribes . The Old Testament were different in contents with TODAYs BIBLE written by only four Disciples of Jesus when there was more than Thirty . The DEAD SEA SCROLLS were more accurate . If you want to know who is GOD it starts with YOU . You determine your destiny . ....So don't talk CRAB .
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written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 09:38:19
written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 09:38:19
Look RPK, I am not an extremist. We don't force people to convert, we let people leave ok. If you want to believe, you believe, if not then go. Just cos my beliefs don't gel with yours, pls dun label me an extremist. I am ok with anyone believing what they want to believe. But it's blasphemy from a Christian point of view to say the Christian God is the Same as ANY other God. Ok, so try to see it from our viewpoint. Calling people idiots just cos u think all gods are the same and I don't is kinda lame. Come on RPK, I respect you more than that.
I am not forcing ppl to believe what I believe but just stating my beliefs. Others are free to practise their own religion of choice.
Tks.
I am not forcing ppl to believe what I believe but just stating my beliefs. Others are free to practise their own religion of choice.
Tks.
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written by Raja Petra, December 24, 2007 09:32:03
written by Raja Petra, December 24, 2007 09:32:03
jedyoong said.....cos there is only ONE God, the Christian God.
And they dare say that Muslims are unreasonable extremists. Actually you find these idiots in ALL religions but the press just plays up the Muslim weaknesses while hiding the weaknesses of the non-Muslims. Idiots are not the monopoly of Muslims.
And they dare say that Muslims are unreasonable extremists. Actually you find these idiots in ALL religions but the press just plays up the Muslim weaknesses while hiding the weaknesses of the non-Muslims. Idiots are not the monopoly of Muslims.
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written by Thiru, December 24, 2007 09:26:54
written by Thiru, December 24, 2007 09:26:54
The universe is a huge collection of planets and other planetary rubbish strewn around extending beyond our imagination. And in that messy place is our dot earth and in that dot you say you have one god. You dont even know if there is life in another area of the universe and maybe another god and maybe in another many god.
What the heck. Humans need to grow up.Until then play like you are smart but actually damn stupid.Just think about it.
What the heck. Humans need to grow up.Until then play like you are smart but actually damn stupid.Just think about it.
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written by Raja Petra, December 24, 2007 09:21:49
written by Raja Petra, December 24, 2007 09:21:49
Dear jedyoong, then Christians are idiots if they think that there are so many Gods and if they think that each of these many Gods made different people. No wonder we are war with one another. We have so many Gods and they are all idiots for not standardising us and making us all the same.
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written by Raja Petra, December 24, 2007 09:13:30
written by Raja Petra, December 24, 2007 09:13:30
Dear jedyoong, there is no such thing as Christian God - or Muslim God, or Jewish God, etc. That is only how pompous, arrogant pricks talk. My God and your God and my God is better than your God and all that crap. Christian God my foot. Porah. Next, Muslims will be claiming that Allah is the Muslim God. Sheesh.
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written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 09:02:25
written by jedyoong, December 24, 2007 09:02:25
Dear RPK:
You wrote:
everyone of the 6 billion people walking the face of this earth worship the same God. Don't confuse that with the manner the worshipping is done. Saying otherwise would mean you acknowledge that there are more than one God.
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From a Christian point of view, we don't believe that other people are actually worshipping 'God' as we understand the term. It may be 'God' to them but CONCEPTUALLY it is not the same. So non-Christians are not really worshiping 'God', cos there is only ONE God, the Christian God. We believe that the only path to salvation is through Jesus Christ. To us, the Muslim Allah is not a god. Thanks. Apologies if this is offensive but that's the Christian doctrine. I would rather not argue about this. Thanks.
You wrote:
everyone of the 6 billion people walking the face of this earth worship the same God. Don't confuse that with the manner the worshipping is done. Saying otherwise would mean you acknowledge that there are more than one God.
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From a Christian point of view, we don't believe that other people are actually worshipping 'God' as we understand the term. It may be 'God' to them but CONCEPTUALLY it is not the same. So non-Christians are not really worshiping 'God', cos there is only ONE God, the Christian God. We believe that the only path to salvation is through Jesus Christ. To us, the Muslim Allah is not a god. Thanks. Apologies if this is offensive but that's the Christian doctrine. I would rather not argue about this. Thanks.
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written by Zym Zym, December 24, 2007 08:21:30
written by Zym Zym, December 24, 2007 08:21:30
Yet another eye-opener article from RPK. I've always wanted to know what's the difference between Islamic Banking and non-Islamic Banking, why is it so appealing to non-Muslims and how do they (the banks) make a living if there's no interest earned from the borrowers. Am sure there are more pros and cons that most of us don't know the significance of such type of banking.
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written by Richard Lo, December 24, 2007 04:02:50
written by Richard Lo, December 24, 2007 04:02:50
RPK,
Truly a well written article! UMNO is only trying to institutionalise their corrupted version of Islam and playing on the ignorance of the Muslims in this country to say that the Christians, Jews and Muslims believe in three different gods. Obviously members of UMNO are not well read and have just proven their lack of intellect or they are blatantly inciting inflamatory remarks.
For the longest time ever, I fail to see the difference between charging interest by conventional banks and "profit" by Islamic banks. You are absolutely right to point out that no matter how you play around with the word, the spirit of it is still interest in nature. Similarly, sin is sin no matter how big or how small it is. God is not going to say just because your sins are small you are less guilty compared to someone who has committed a bigger sin. In the eyes of God, a sin is a sin no matter how small or big it is.
Have a blessed x'mas everyone, especially to RPK and his family.
Truly a well written article! UMNO is only trying to institutionalise their corrupted version of Islam and playing on the ignorance of the Muslims in this country to say that the Christians, Jews and Muslims believe in three different gods. Obviously members of UMNO are not well read and have just proven their lack of intellect or they are blatantly inciting inflamatory remarks.
For the longest time ever, I fail to see the difference between charging interest by conventional banks and "profit" by Islamic banks. You are absolutely right to point out that no matter how you play around with the word, the spirit of it is still interest in nature. Similarly, sin is sin no matter how big or how small it is. God is not going to say just because your sins are small you are less guilty compared to someone who has committed a bigger sin. In the eyes of God, a sin is a sin no matter how small or big it is.
Have a blessed x'mas everyone, especially to RPK and his family.
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written by Krazee, December 24, 2007 03:44:14
written by Krazee, December 24, 2007 03:44:14
I just don't know why the insecurity until the level of wanting the exclusive use of the word Allah.
It is claimed that Mohammad is the final messenger of God and Christians do not accept just as the Jews do not accept Jesus and of course Mohammad as the later Messenger of God but it gose to show that the contention is not God or Allah but the acceptance of the Messenger or Prophet or Messiah. It goes to simply mean that our dear Govt is ignorant of their own faith....or what they are doing.
so sad....
"when will we ever learn"
It is claimed that Mohammad is the final messenger of God and Christians do not accept just as the Jews do not accept Jesus and of course Mohammad as the later Messenger of God but it gose to show that the contention is not God or Allah but the acceptance of the Messenger or Prophet or Messiah. It goes to simply mean that our dear Govt is ignorant of their own faith....or what they are doing.
so sad....
"when will we ever learn"
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written by Raja Petra, December 24, 2007 02:57:59
written by Raja Petra, December 24, 2007 02:57:59
Dear Uni, actually the Malays are the biggest shirik in the entire world. "Kalau tak undi Umno masa depan kita tidak akan terjamin." Itu shirik. Dan banyak lagi. Kalau saya nak senaraikan semua kena buat buku. Melayu yang sebenarnya sudah sesat dan tidak lagi mengamalkan Islam sebenar. So stop pointing at the non-Muslims. Look at the Malays first. Malays bikin tak serupa cakap.
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written by Uni, December 24, 2007 02:51:40
written by Uni, December 24, 2007 02:51:40
betulla, Allah dah bg tau, memang kalau ditanya kafir mushrikin, memang diorang ngaku Allah tu tuhan diorang jugak( in fact it is ) tapi sayang kesyirikan tetap bertakhta di hati mereka, there is always 1 god tapi kenape mesti banyak religions...confuse2?? Innadinai'ndallahil Islam.......
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written by Hope4all, December 24, 2007 01:29:00
written by Hope4all, December 24, 2007 01:29:00
That shows you that the Govt is willing to stir religious issues for political gain. That reveals to you how incompetent the govt is and how they will resort to anything to remain in power.
Don't wait until these idiotic politicians are judged during judgment day. We can and will send them off through the ballot box!
Don't wait until these idiotic politicians are judged during judgment day. We can and will send them off through the ballot box!
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written by Raja Petra, December 24, 2007 00:48:15
written by Raja Petra, December 24, 2007 00:48:15
Dear jedyoong, everyone of the 6 billion people walking the face of this earth worship the same God. Don't confuse that with the manner the worshipping is done. Saying otherwise would mean you acknowledge that there are more than one God.
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written by lokenpal, December 23, 2007 19:15:48
written by lokenpal, December 23, 2007 19:15:48
Allahmah!
>>That is like Britney Spears patenting the sound of her fart. Can you imagine no one being allowed to release a fart that sounds like hers?
lol.
>>That is like Britney Spears patenting the sound of her fart. Can you imagine no one being allowed to release a fart that sounds like hers?
lol.
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written by Equal, December 23, 2007 18:52:22
written by Equal, December 23, 2007 18:52:22
" The Johor Anthem begins with "Allah peliharakan Sultan......", so non-Muslims are not supposed to sing this anthem?
Looks like UMNO is much much worse than PAS in its fanaticism and extremism."
The Selangor Anthem also has the word " Allah lanjutkan usia Tuanku...."
Looks like UMNO is much much worse than PAS in its fanaticism and extremism."
The Selangor Anthem also has the word " Allah lanjutkan usia Tuanku...."
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written by Frusmalaysian, December 23, 2007 17:42:25
RPK, we totally agree with you. To most of us, this Islam Hadahari people are really paranoid and insecure. We are also told by them, that we cannot wish salam to them the way another of their type wishes them. I once related this to an arab course mate of mine and he was dumbfounded. He said in his country everybody, muslims, christians and other, wishes each other in the same way. What are these people trying to prove? Maybe just stupidity
written by Frusmalaysian, December 23, 2007 17:42:25
RPK, we totally agree with you. To most of us, this Islam Hadahari people are really paranoid and insecure. We are also told by them, that we cannot wish salam to them the way another of their type wishes them. I once related this to an arab course mate of mine and he was dumbfounded. He said in his country everybody, muslims, christians and other, wishes each other in the same way. What are these people trying to prove? Maybe just stupidity
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written by IbnAbdHalim, December 23, 2007 16:03:22
written by IbnAbdHalim, December 23, 2007 16:03:22
Perhaps one day even muslims other than UMNO will be forbidden from using the word 'ALLAH'.
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written by justice6, December 23, 2007 15:47:31
written by justice6, December 23, 2007 15:47:31
I am going to patent the word "Haram" and "illegal" and heck..I am going to patent the whole book of dictionary.. in this case, the main stream media will only be selling toilet paper to you all...
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written by confuseus, December 23, 2007 15:06:07
written by confuseus, December 23, 2007 15:06:07
"You must participate in whatever discussions and meetings that are held and which seek to improve the lot of the community and society. Islam is a religion of the community. The community comes first. And you do things as a community, for the sake of the entire community, so that the community progresses and improves."
Well said, Pet. In Islam, we called this as Fardhu Kifayah.
Sadly, majority of the Muslims are ignorants and misguided and I believe these are the very reason why Muslims everywhere has poor self esteem and confidence.
They have been totally misled by the munafiqun and been duped that "Ignorance is bliss".
Well said, Pet. In Islam, we called this as Fardhu Kifayah.
Sadly, majority of the Muslims are ignorants and misguided and I believe these are the very reason why Muslims everywhere has poor self esteem and confidence.
They have been totally misled by the munafiqun and been duped that "Ignorance is bliss".
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written by BennyG, December 23, 2007 14:52:23
written by BennyG, December 23, 2007 14:52:23
Another enlightening article from RPK. That's why I keep on coming back for more so that I would not be suckered by the government propaganda.
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written by khookahsim, December 23, 2007 13:41:07
written by khookahsim, December 23, 2007 13:41:07
Alamak, this is serious, man. If the BN govt patent the word 'Allah', would it mean that we now cannot exclaim 'alamak' without infringing on their patent?
BTW, if billboards announcing govt projects begin with "Satu lagi projek Kerajaan BN", why don't postage-exempt envelopes carry the words "Atas Urusan Kerajaan BN"?
BTW, if billboards announcing govt projects begin with "Satu lagi projek Kerajaan BN", why don't postage-exempt envelopes carry the words "Atas Urusan Kerajaan BN"?
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written by educationist, December 23, 2007 13:02:51
written by educationist, December 23, 2007 13:02:51
An argument on the usage of the term Allah which is both enlightening and sharp. I can predict a stony silence from that nincompoop bureaucrat who issued such an order to bar non-Muslim from using that word.But rhe sad thing will be the ban will still be in effect!!
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written by Saint, December 23, 2007 11:03:03
written by Saint, December 23, 2007 11:03:03
The Hindus have six different religions, saints and holy books but all still believe in "One God"
And the Hindus came to this "vision" even before Christ was born. We still believe in the six "different Gods", but are aware that all the six religions are refereeing to the "same One God" but in different ways.So for the six of us who call ourselves as "Hindus" under one banner, still believe that all the people of the six religion will go to "heaven" as long as one practices one's religion correctly. And killing for your faith is still killing - you do not go to heaven after you have killed an innocent one. It is because our faith in the"One God" is so strong we do not convert other's, because by doing so we do not believe in the "One God" concept.
And the Hindus came to this "vision" even before Christ was born. We still believe in the six "different Gods", but are aware that all the six religions are refereeing to the "same One God" but in different ways.So for the six of us who call ourselves as "Hindus" under one banner, still believe that all the people of the six religion will go to "heaven" as long as one practices one's religion correctly. And killing for your faith is still killing - you do not go to heaven after you have killed an innocent one. It is because our faith in the"One God" is so strong we do not convert other's, because by doing so we do not believe in the "One God" concept.
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written by anon, December 23, 2007 10:03:44
written by anon, December 23, 2007 10:03:44
Excellent Pete.
What the dictators here have forgotten is to tell the Arabs not to use the word 'Allah' as only Muslims in Malaysia have the right to do so.
A formal letter should be written to the people of Arabia stating that Allah is not their God but belongs exclusively to the Muslims in Malaysia.
What the dictators here have forgotten is to tell the Arabs not to use the word 'Allah' as only Muslims in Malaysia have the right to do so.
A formal letter should be written to the people of Arabia stating that Allah is not their God but belongs exclusively to the Muslims in Malaysia.
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written by Mr Smith, December 23, 2007 09:28:05
written by Mr Smith, December 23, 2007 09:28:05
The Johor Anthem begins with "Allah peliharakan Sultan......", so non-Muslims are not supposed to sing this anthem?
Looks like UMNO is much much worse than PAS in its fanaticism and extremism.
Looks like UMNO is much much worse than PAS in its fanaticism and extremism.
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written by alternatif2007, December 23, 2007 09:14:48
written by alternatif2007, December 23, 2007 09:14:48
In as many times as we have been on the internet or in a discussion or a chat group, we almost always run into someone who feels offended that we use the word "God" when we talk about the One and Only God (Allah in Arabic).
It is surprising to notice that most of these Muslim brothers and/or sisters do not know that the word "Allah" is the Arabic word for the word "God". Many of them believe that "Allah" is the name of the Muslim God. They do not realize that the word "Allah" does not belong exclusively to the Muslims and that it has always been used before (and after) Islam by the Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians when they speak about God.
Talking to English speaking people about God using the word "Allah" is very much the same like speaking to Arabic speaking people about "Allah" using the word God. It makes all the sense to show respect to the people and their language by speaking to them in the language they use.
Insisting on the use of the word "Allah" which is the Arabic word for God immediately creates the illusion that "Allah" is a whole different deity than God of the whole world. It creates a god that belongs ONLY to the Muslims, and takes the universality of Islam out of it.
It is surprising to notice that most of these Muslim brothers and/or sisters do not know that the word "Allah" is the Arabic word for the word "God". Many of them believe that "Allah" is the name of the Muslim God. They do not realize that the word "Allah" does not belong exclusively to the Muslims and that it has always been used before (and after) Islam by the Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians when they speak about God.
Talking to English speaking people about God using the word "Allah" is very much the same like speaking to Arabic speaking people about "Allah" using the word God. It makes all the sense to show respect to the people and their language by speaking to them in the language they use.
Insisting on the use of the word "Allah" which is the Arabic word for God immediately creates the illusion that "Allah" is a whole different deity than God of the whole world. It creates a god that belongs ONLY to the Muslims, and takes the universality of Islam out of it.
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written by Panca Indera, February 19, 2008 | 00:35:18
Salam
Dear Mimag2005
Remember the saying,
"One who angers you, conquers you!"
.................................
Wassalam wbt
Dear Panca Indera,
Thank you for your concern and advise.....
I can ‘ feel ‘ your sincere vibes and....appreciate it very much....
Fyi, I was actually enjoying myself together with my “ giggling “ niece on Avanza’s “ Earth’s 4 corners “..!!
Last but not least....to assuage your concern..... Avanza wasn’t the first
‘ Charging, Ruthless Crusader ‘ to be made into an ‘ impotent, bungling Darwin’s specie ‘..
“ Maa asalamah “
..................