Hi Scott, salute you for looking at the other side of the coin where many are too blind to see.

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While you are at it condemn those Christians discrimination and harrasment in Iraq as well. Especially, Dr. Mahatir since you are closest to home but off course that is not of your interest because you are bias and hypocritical as usual.

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The film was made to portray Islam as an extreme religion.
Documented fact (Quran) and Video Recordings (Proof).

Sadly, these Islamic Extremist are the culprits who tarnish Islam.
Their actions are the reason Islam is looked down upon by Westerners.

All the demonstrations/threats by Muslims all around the world just make the film more famous and indirectly, Geert Wilders is vindicated.
Non believers will look at the reactions and assume Geert has a point.

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People,

As long as the Muslims don't have one Caliph, they will be interperating Islam according to their clerics point of view. as of now, We already have many 'self appointed Caliphs' to dictate and interperate.

I wonder why there must be these words called "MODERATE" and "EXTREME" muslims? From my point of view, it goes to show that the teaching of Islam does advocate "justified violence" in the name of God and for his purposes. So by being a MODERATE muslim, one does Gods work in dignified mannner(with the same goal). And being an EXTREME muslim, allows one to do God's work in a rather harsh manner (with the same goal too).

Geert Wilders may have some political gain and ploy. but it is interesting to note that none of his stories were made up. they were all from the mouths of muslims themselves who believe in the all words of Quran and its company of books.

I have never come across other religions (myself being Christian)advocating extremism. As a Christian, our teachings do not advocate revenge or killing. As Jesus Christ the founder of our belief says "He who lives by the sword shall perish by it" - the 10 commandments strictly forbids its.

but others have mentioned that, in the old testament, the Jew were intructed to kill all the living in the city. Yes. But those were intrustions to the Jew then. NOT to the Christians.

In the New Testment, you can see how Christian are persecuted for what they believe. they never spread the Christianity by the sword.

But along came the Catholic Crusaders, who at that time interperated the bible accrding to their political strategy and much extent twisted the mass into thinking that they should kill for God. The Crusaders were never believers of Jesus. For if they were, they would not have fought.

We do not fight against flesh and blood, but against evil spirits.(to summerize)

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For those who has been asking for prove that some Muslim scholars has been vocal in denouncing extremism and violence act, please refer to the URL given below.

http://www.rezaaslan.com/writings/LAT_nov06.html

I will leave it up to your imagination as to why this kind of news is not widely published by Western control media!

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They need to-do what the Dutch Muslims did, sent Wilders teddy bears, cards, e-cards, virtual hugs, etc, etc. All the protests and banners with "Kill Wilders" and "Down with Holland, Down with the west" and burning of dummy dolls of him and Dutch PM are only proving the point the film makes. Also I wonder how many of the protesters and critics have actually seen the film, because it is nothing more than a collage of clips and some verses from the Quran. He didn't even shop around long enough and missed 100's of clips from Arabic TV stations featuring children TV shows learning them to hate the west and saying all the west is evil and bad, Iranian and Saudi Mufti's saying that it is ok to beat women, etc, etc, etc. This 15 mins of clips is nothing to boycott a whole country for. What if western countries start boycotting complete countries because of what one MP or Mufti there says?

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I am not a Muslim and I am not very well versed in its teaching but I was brought up with one common lesson that my Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, etc elders have taught me that is:

All religion teaches good.

And I do believe in that. I think these short four letter statement should take a lead in priority as the unifying 'scriptures' of the 21st century.

I believe Muslim in particular, is just unlucky to suffer negative advertising spearheaded by the 'extremist'.

I have asked my muslim bestfriend "Is it true that Islam hates Jews?" his reply is a stern, "No! Those are just deviations from the original teachings." And I took what he says with great credibility - because this friend of mine in fact married a Jew who parents migrated from Israel.

That was reality hitting me right in the face. I do not know alot about Islam Extremist and what they fight for or why because I do not know enough so I will withhold judgement.

But I do think that NO religion is bad - religion is just a teaching that was handed down by previous generations. Nothing more - it is lifeless hence cannot be Bad. The bad are the ones who uses religion as such - and the Good are the ones who uses religion as such. It is the people that is Good or Bad.

I think it is foolish to stereotype a religion as extremist or bad - religion were not given birth into the world as extremist or bad. Religion is just teachings and nothing more.

So I think what we are seeing is just the unfortunate trail of events in the middleeast that occupants uses islam propaganda as a tool to fight their cause. Hence, I think Islam is just unlucky to suffer bad publicity in that way and not as an extreme/bad religion.

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If my statement previously is inaccurate or totally wrong in anyway. I urge you to reply to my comment.

I really want to know especially from my muslim brothers about what they think about this.

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I agree with Scott. Denouncing the film does not directly address the problems the film is highlighting. Shutting up people like Wilders will not make the problems go away.

However the solution to control (you can't really eradicate religious extremism) Islamic extremism is far from easy. Let me comment on some of the posts here.

MasterYoda, having an Islamic caliph does not sort out the problem. They had caliphs before and they still ended up killing each other. It's not about finding a moderate chief mullah to create one law to rule them all.

There's many opinions on how to tackle the extremism issue. Some say give them democracy and eradicate poverty to empower them to leave extremism yet you get democratically rich extremists. Some say sort out the Palestinian issue but if it's not Palestine there's Afghanistan and Iraq. I can't tell you the solution but it's definitely not as simplistic as having a caliph.

By the way, MasterYoda, Christianity did spread through the sword. You just don't hear it much because it's old history. Just see how it spread into the pagan lands such as the teutonic crusades into Lithuania, the adoption of Christianity by Clovis I, etc.. Not to mention Christians are no way united. You have the Catholic church led by the Pope, the Orthodox church led by the Patriach and the various protestant churches including Church of England led by the Archbishop of Canterbury. They also fought against each other under the banner of the cross, Catholics vs Protestants in the post-Reformation Europe. Then there's the Spanish Inquisition and also the Catholic church complicity with Nazi Germany during WW2. These are contrary to Christian teachings and perhaps the main reason why it didn't go out of hand (although it almost did in pagan Lithuania and somewhat to a limited extent IRA terrorists) was not so much of the Christian leaders paying much heed to Christian teachings as they recognised the political and economic limitations of pushing their agendas. As for Christianity never advocating extremism... the crusades and the Reconquista show you otherwise. Using your argument that the crusaders did not believe in Jesus or else they wouldn't have fought... then the Pope who sent them on crusades too must have not believed in Jesus or else he wouldn't give them blessings to go forth and kill.

Shamadz72, the article you pointed too does have some sound argument. Anyway, as for why the Western media does not print such articles, you are wrong there. They may not have printed that particular article but if you read Western newspapers and watch Western news, you will find that moderate Muslim academics get their views published. Even in the letters section or phone in radio sessions you get plenty of moderate Muslim views.

The thing is, like all well intentioned opinions, a large majority of them are ignored by the general population. In fact many people are sick and tired of the moderate messages that sprouted like wild grass everytime a horrific incident occured because no matter what good messages there are, they are worth little in the face of the horrors.

Agree with Redcurve. In my opinion, the film should be seen as Wilder's personal view and not linked to the national position, just like the Danish cartoon should be treated as the act of the newspapers involved and not the country. Therefore a boycott for Dutch products is uncalled for.

Everyone can tell you that overreaction won't help you much. If you punish those who did not commit the wrong what you will create is defensive sentiments. There's already talk that why should other nations and beliefs need to toe the line when dealing with Muslims? Many people are getting sick of trying to please Islamic views/concerns. Some see how their governments are bending their backs to accomodate Muslims in their countries as an infringement of their cultural rights and national sovereignity. Serious stuff. As much as the Muslims shout that the West is oppressing them you can also see the West's side that will argue that the Muslims are curtailing their freedoms. When will this rhetorical push and shove end? When there's few left alive?

I speak of not able to point out a solution as above. However I would recommend others to think about the qualities of Islam and it's practices itself which is causing the conflict with other ways of life. After all, it's not just about Islam vs Christianity but rather Islam vs everyone else. Why is that so? Perhaps it's the inflexibility of Islam or their believers in dealing with changes and differences. For example as much as Islam is touted to raise the status of women, it falls short of the sort of standard expected in modern values.

Does this mean that Islam is flawed? That, you go figure it out.

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Dear Asam Laksa,

I cannot see your comments for a long2 time. Where have you been? Well, I just want to share with you that Roman Catholic and Christian is little bit different according to Indonesian consitution. Roman Catholic is one single religion institution eventhough we can call her as "Christian". Christians refer to Protestants world.

Well, it was Roman Catholic church that using sword to spread Catholic's faith. It was Roman Catholic that fought with Moslem (including non-Catholic church Christian in Syria, north Africa, Egypt, and many more -all of them convert to Islam faith for protection)for more then hundreds years in Crecent penisular and Europe during "perang salib"-including in America continent and here in Southern part of Asia. This nothing to do with Christians as whole.

Hmm! due to extremist, I think Scot give us a thought. Why should we denounce this film of Dutch? This is out of real meaning of true Islam. True Islam indirectly know that this is not right. I agree with you AsamLaksa, we do not need to denouce it because this film already denounced itself by figuring untrue genuine human conscience senses. In short, we do not need to denounce Satan works because he is already out of our right pathway. Double works!

I think it is far benefiting us if we consider how much efforts we channel to reduce extremist mind-set among religion practioners. Those provocator films are only test our barrometer or thermometer of how we can handle it by simple attitude. We cannot defeating Satan's power of what he and his agents want to do to God's people. We only torch the small fire with a gallon of gasoline. So, my oppinion is--just let this devil's agents do what they wanted to do and we check our barrometer/thermometer whether it is over heat or not. We need to ask God for reduce the heat and for His 'fikah and hidayah'. Simple!

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Masteryoda said >>in the old testament, the Jews were instructed to kill all the living in the city

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Correction!
Masteryoda said >> in the old testament, the Jews were instructed to kill all the living in the city

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I don't what went wrong. I wanted to ask Masteryoda where he got the idea from. Who instructed the Jews to kill when in the old testament the Jews were slaves trying to free themselves from bondage.

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Shamadz, your link is very educational and I appreciate it.

I came to one conclusion:

It seems that there are more peace-loving muslims in the world than there are extremist ones - however, a lot of people are subjected to more media coverage of the extremist than the peace-loving ones. Hence, this create a FALSE perception that Islam is extreme in those who has no understanding of the religion at all - the non-muslims. I would say it is NEGATIVELY BIASED advertising on muslim behalf - especially considering all those coverage on IEDs, suicide bombers, 911, etc - little do we watch Islam in a peace loving nature but that does not mean it is not there. I would go across and say that Peace-loving muslims out-number the extremist by a LARGE MARGIN. It is just that these peace-loving ones are just quiet and moderate.

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For those who don't mind listening to someone for a few minutes to gain a great insight, watch some Video's of Pat Condell on YouTube, he is a cynic/stand up comedian who dislikes religions from Scientology to Christians and he has a message, keep an open mind. Some links to get you started:
His response to the fitna film: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3_qelW5qp4
Other video's by him: http://www.youtube.com/profile...ondell&p=r

A lot of westerners look at these video's some have over 450.000 views which is quite a lot for just a guy talking, keep your mind open and try not to get offended when his sarcastic remarks and being fired.

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Masteryoda said >>in the old testament, the Jews were instructed to kill all the living in the city

Yes, but no Jewish believers today interpret that passage as a divine command to attack and kill non-Jews.

As for the Israelites who invaded Canaan themselves, their actions can be suitably justified by the following arguments:

1) God is the creator, giver and owner of life. Therefore it is wholly in His right to take back the life he gave to people - the life they never paid Him for, and didn’t even appreciate Him for. God did something like this before, with Sodom and Gomorrah, and even the Great Flood. Only with Canaan, He used soldiers instead of fire and water - but the authority is the same.

2) A hundred-thousand strong army sloooooowly headed towards an enemy town would have been ample warning to evacuate the women and children, leaving only the fighting men and stubborn citizens. Thus, when a city such as Jericho fell, only the warriors were slaughtered.

3) While the Israelites were traversing the desert and Canaan, various tribes attacked them without provocation. They often would launch ambush raids on the rear of the camp, killing the stragglers - i.e. Israelites who were weak, old or otherwise slower to travel. Thus they first declared war on the Israelites. The Amalekites for one attacked Israelites for 400 years before the Israelite’s responded!

4) God commanded the Israelites to first offer peace. If that was rejected (i.e. The Canaanites say, SCREW PEACE WE GONNA KILL YOU ALL) then they were to force the enemy to retreat out of the land. If battle continued to the end, they were to kill the men but spare the women and children. Whether the Israelites obeyed that command or whether they murdered the children is their fault, not God’s.

5) The Canaanites were not exactly innocent people - they practised incest, bestiality and child sacrifice. Taking into account the thousands of murders they would have committed over the centuries before the Israelites arrived, their very culture had to be wiped clean so that future generations wouldn’t follow in those abominable practices. (However, the disobedient Israelites did NOT kill all the Canaanites - and soon took up those same evil habits, thus dooming Israel from the start to the same fate.)

http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2007/06/26/communism-atheism-relative-morality/#comment-22931

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Scottthong! I have read your blogs and you are a Christian fanatic and abortion rights activist! And there are also contradictory remarks made by you in your blogs. To make a long story short, I have always believed that I should never argue with anyone when it comes to religion. There is good as well as bad in every religion but stick to the facts! I will not have a reply to anything else you have to say.

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Mei yen and scottthang,

In the old Testament the Hebrews (Jews) were given specific instructions to kill every man, woman and chil from the places there were about to conquer. this was during Joshua's time. please find the verses yourselves. there are plenty.

I wrote this statement because: 1) there are some people who intereperate this as a license for Christians to kill. I wanted to make it clear that it was isolated to the Jew during that period of time.

2)Christianity was never spread by the sword. Catholicism was spread by the sword. Muslims during the Crusaders recognised Catholicism as Christianity. Other forms of christianity were not recognised.
My point: the bible vehemently stresses that Christians are to NOT kill, revenge and be extreme. there is simply NO provision for that.

But in Islam, there is provisions to take a MODERATE stand or and EXTREMIST stand. both are allowed.

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Islam cannot accept criticism because its teachings are assume to be no flawed.
As such the film called "fitna" is widely seen as intentionally insulting and provocative towards Islam.

It cannot be denied that the so called "extremists" are the same ones who cause Westerners to view Islam as a violent religion. These extremists are the ones hijacking and making Islam as a religion of war and intolerance in the public.

Nevertheless the Quran also says that the "infidel" cannot make any comments on
Islam as they are not the people of God,but pagans who have no faith in God.So
the moderate Muslim leaders denounce or reject them and their views as rubbish.

Fitna the movies may tell the truth about the "extremists" of Islam ideology but
the films also caused misportrayal of Islam as inherently violent and intolerant
and it was denounce by the muslims worldwide.

Islam views itself as a perfect religion and handed down by God directly and
unlike the Christianity as a religion of revelations which thus can be fired
and criticize,experiment and debate because its perfections is still doubtful

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Christianity was never spread by the sword. Catholicism was spread by the sword.

That is correct.

But christianity was also spread by ethnic cleansing of tribal cultures the world over, including east malaysia. It continues today the world over.

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Yes, it is true--Christian will not accept any cultures that go against its doctrins. Christian should not adopt pagan cultures and make in 'christianization' on it. As example, Christian should not adopt "head hunting" for dowry. But, the the fact, the good culture of any tribal in east Malaysia was changed western alike. This is very wrong done by westerners missionaries.

I put all this blames on Christian Eastners missionaries who not give their ministry in all Asian region. We were evangelized by Westerners Christians. That is why, Christian in East Malaysia wearing necktie, Coat and shoes in the house of God.

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made mistake earlier. Should have been anti-abortion activist.

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-->Scottthong! I have read your blogs and you are a Christian fanatic and abortion rights activist! And there are also contradictory remarks made by you in your blogs.

--> Should have been anti-abortion activist. - mei yen

Yup, anti-abortion it is.

But why am I a fanatic? Is it because I read the Bible, go to church or serve in ministry? Or because I blog about logical defense of Christian scirpture and doctrine?

I would appreciate it if you could point out to me why I am considered fanatical, so that I can avoid activities that create that perception in the future.

Contradictory remarks can exist anywhere, including on blogs and from the mouths of prominent politicians.

But I would again appreciate it if you could point out exactly (or even roughly) where I made such contradictory statements, so that I can learn from them and avoid them in the future.

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-->In the old Testament the Hebrews (Jews) were given specific instructions to kill every man, woman and chil from the places there were about to conquer. this was during Joshua's time. please find the verses yourselves. there are plenty.

I wrote this statement because: 1) there are some people who intereperate this as a license for Christians to kill. I wanted to make it clear that it was isolated to the Jew during that period of time. - MasterYoda

MasterYoda, I am familiar with both the passages (Joshua 6 and others) and both the criticisms and defenses of it, which is what my earlier comment was about.

I believe that NO Christian groups, extremist or nuts or otherwise, has ever used this verse as justification! At most, it is a myth or hypothetical scenario used as an anti-Bible argument.

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A boycott sends the wrong message. It makes Muslims seem narrow minded and backward.

Do you blame and punish a whole society because of the extremist acts of an individual? That is what a boycott is doing... it makes the entire ummah seem irrational and emotional.

Denounce that extremist Western individual, and all the other extremist Muslims who give rise to individuals like Geert Wilder. A boycott only lends credence to people like Wilder who will now say, "See, I told you so!"

A boycott brings extremism into the mainstream. If a common Muslim will punish an entire society for the acts of an individual, then the mainstream Westerners will think that the entire ummah is extremists, and not only the fringe Muslims who denigrate Islam by their chauvinistic actions.

...

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And, for those who don't understand the Bible, stop quoting scripture from the Old Testament. The New Testament is the one that most Christians follow. It is the new deal we have with God and Jesus.

That's why it is divided into Old and New. Discard the Old... the stories in there are for background and context for the New. Modern Christians follow the New Testament. So, quoting Old Testament scripture is misleading and mischievous.

...

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Freedom of speech is essential to humanity, but one need to exercise an optimal degree of humane consideration, be responsible and accountable.

Nevertheless from the amount of violence from extremists who had relied on their holy book to justify their primordial acts, we should apply critical thinking, and ask why? There must be causes to these violent effects.

Religion often dangle the immortality carrot on a very thin string to it's followers. This is one reason why the majority do not condemn certain negatives that is related their religion for fear that the fine string will snap from them.

To some understand why the majority is silent, in your own discretion, search for "what the west need to know" in YouTube. That film maybe a bit bias, but there are elements therein worthy of your rational consideration.

The religious and other sorts of violence that is going on in this world is due to the fact that the majority/averate of us are 98%-primate while some are 99.5% primates.
To make the world more peaceful, we need to be more human with the progressive human wire connections in the brain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_neural_network

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Good point, Bunda. Boycotting a nation because of the actions of one individual is like placing an embargo on Iraq to punish Saddam back in the day... It hurts the intended target far less than everyone around him.

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seriously, boycotting a nation's product is silly not to mention that dutch products dominate most part of our daily lives such as SHELL, Unilever etc... furthermore, it's an independent film and not backed by the dutch government.

and if you take one step back, and watch the film from another angle you would see that, it's jus another example of someone who's trying to demonstrate that how deadly it is to misinterprete a bible/quran/scripts of god.

if we allowed christian/buddhist/toaism dominate countries to openly discuss their own religion or to a certain extend of more engaging discussion then why is it not that muslims are open about discussing their own religion. after all, the scripts of god are free to be interpreted/discussed by mankind. how do we not know that, scripts of god had been altered many times to suit certain individual's needs & power? it's writen thousands years ago anyway, at the end, god gave us the brain to decipher HIS message, shouldn't we be more rational when handle "sensitive" things such as this...actually, i for one, never find religion as a sensitive discussion.

i believe these 'leaders' i never like to refer them as leaders anyway, they are just representatives of their own kind, own selfish agenda. anyway, they are only the religion to reach their own personal political agenda. just like any other bishops during middle ages in europe.

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"...they are only USING religion to reach their own personal political agenda..."

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one note to add, we don't see PAS calling for boycott! (or did i miss the news?)

just stay that way, Mr Hadi. That's the way to go to demonstrate that you're the NEW PAS! sometime silence is better than shouting for the wrong reasons.

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The christians did it so its ok for the muslim to do it.

Since the muslim are now doing it, then its ok for the christians to do it.

Since its ok for christian and muslim to do it then everyone can do it.

I hope we are talking about love here and not killing and maiming.

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You got your point there Scott. Let us look at the bright sight. Majority of Muslims should thanks Geert Wilders for his effort of promoting Islam and the Holy Quran though his intention may seem insulting and provocative .

Non-Muslims out there should get a copy of the Quran and study the whole context and the Arabs culture with an open mind and heart before passing judgement that all Muslims are violent, extremist and terrorists who are hell bend of spreading their faith through swords,bullets and suicide bombs.

I wonder what would the Prophet pbuh react to such a provocations?.

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